I received a nice letter from Frogerician of the Steamwheedle Cartel (US) today.

In the email, Froggie writes;

Been reading your column ever since I decided to move my druid up through the ranks of obscurity to where he is now, in the beginning stages of Karazhan. I’ve got a pretty well geared bear tank, he’s fully outfitted in pre-kara gear, uncrittable, 23K armor, 12.8K health, 30-35% dodge. And yet Karazhan is just kicking my furry behind. These freaking undead bosses more often than not are immune to taunt, so as soon as some dipstick gnome mage (name withheld) who’s never even heard of threat meters until that very night decides to OFGWTFBBQ crit my boss (maiden). Down goes the raid. So what do I hear? “You need to hold aggro better.” :/

So the question behind my gripe is: Any special tricks or attack sequences I can use to help keep my aggro up? As far as I can tell I’m reduced to Mangle, Maul and Swipe.

First off, thanks for the email, Froggie!

I’m sure he’s gonna be super-pissed that I’m calling him that… but Frogerician seems so… formal, doesn’t it? Maybe I can call you Mr. Frog?

Now, normally I just answer quietly in the background, but I thought that, since I haven’t posted on this kind of stuff in a long time, it would be nice to give an answer… and while the answer may be light-hearted in tone, I’m serious about my advice.

And as a disclaimer… there are lots of different ways you can generate threat. In fact, I’m sure there are plenty of ways to generate threat differently that other tanks use and would recommend. And some might delight in correcting me on. The important thing here is, while Mr. Frog specifically mentioned Maiden of Virtue, an infinite Rage fight, he also emntioned the undead foes in general. Now, against a single target when you might be looking at conserving Rage for future battles, this is MY method, and my advice. Not the advice someone else is giving, but mine. If you disagree with me, please, I invite you to add your advice in the comments. From such things, we all learn. Most especially me.

Oh yeah, the answer to the email. Right, lol.

The attack sequence I use is Enrage to build up Rage, 8 seconds or so to let the Enrage armor nerf cooldown tick, then Feral Faerie Fire to pull, Mangle for bleed debuff and threat spike – Lacerate x3 immediately, then Mangle should be off cooldown again, then Lacerate x3 again. If I have enough excess rage, then I throw in some Mauls. Otherwise, keep up the Mangle -> Lacerate x3 rotation, throw in Feral Faerie Fire for the armor debuff and Demoralyzing Roar for some damage reduction once in a while, and you should be fine.

If you are still having problems holding aggro after doing what YOU can do, you may want to switch to using Moonfire to do your initial pull. Also, get your Priest to cast Prayer of Mending on you prior to the pull (you get the threat from it healing you, not the Priest), and have the Hunter cast Misdirection on you and your target before the pull.

If, after all that, your gnome mage still pulls threat, tell him to lrn2play. And you can quote me.

Okay, so that was a bit cranky. Sorry about that, I do know that some classes can crit massively on their spells. I myself have a Warlock in our guild that is an awesome player, and sometimes his crits just roll one after another, 8 in a row, and poof! He’s dead.

Sometimes, there’s nothing you CAN do, except try your best.

Again, thanks for the email, Mr. Frog!

40 Responses to “From the mailbag; How do I keep aggro in Kara?”
  1. Prisma says:

    Hey BBB,

    A bit OT but I wanted to throw this blog I found your way, incase you hadn’t seen her yet. :) http://swissarmycow.blogspot.com/

    Keep up with the awesometastic articles for newbie druids and further explaining things as well! You have been a great asset to my little alt druid I’ve been slowly figuring out. ^_^

  2. SuraBear says:

    Hm, interesting timing on this. I just got done building my bear threat calculator. Well, “done” in that its available, though I’m still tweaking it, mostly adding features.

    I plan to use it to delve into the world of bear attack rotations and such tomorrow. Especially the surprisingly high threat/rage of Maul.

    The simple answer, however, is exactly what Triple-B said, Mangle->Laceratex3 rotations, adding in Maul when you have the rage to spare. One thing I will add is that, if you REALLY want to frontload threat, open with a Starfire-Moonfire one two punch!

  3. BigBearButt says:

    Added Swiss Army Cow to my blogroll, actually. I know it’s new, but I put it in Druids because it just seems so… classy. I really like it.

    Surabear, I think I should try your Starfire opening. I have used it in Heroics before, but I’ll be honest; I’ve gotten lazy.

    My gear has gotten good enough now, that when I’m tanking Karazhan or an instance, I often pull the next target with FFF long before the first one is dead, simply because I’ve built up so much threat that even Nawat couldn’t pull it off. This keeps my existing Rage from decaying, and keeps the run rolling along.

    NOT good advice for starting druid tanks. NOT. hehe.

    Remember… do as I say, not as I do.

  4. SuraBear says:

    Hehe, I’m with you on that one BBB. On the plus side, pulling from bear form IS safer. And ultimately, the threat you get from SF/MF with no spell damage gear is pretty minimal, basically just an extra Mangle worth combined, if that.

    Just dont be surprised if people start getting upset if you chain pull, say, the etherials just before Netherspite. Especially the survival hunters, and your healers *whistles*

  5. Kobay says:

    As always, you Bear Bloggers (BBB, Surabear, Karthis, all of you) are a treasured wellspring of information.

    I’m not in Kara yet, and my gear/stats are close to Mr. Frog. I have found the Hurricane Pull that Karthis laid out on his blog useful in situations where I need to hold against more than one mob from the outset. (the worshipers in SL come to mind)

    As you said, there are many ways to pull a mob. ;-)

  6. BigBearButt says:

    Kobay, I assume by Hurricane pull, you mean using Moonfire on one memeber of a group that is normally taken down with AOE, then hitting barkskin as the group nears, and casting Hurricane on the area around and in front of yorself to pound the group and keep their attention on you.

    You’ll find it is one of the key Feral Tank moves in Karazhan, when you’re clearing the area around the stairs approaching Moroes.

    In tanking gear, without any talents or buffs in threat mitigation, I find that I can just about keep all aggro on myself, even as the rest of the party is blasting away. the problem, of course, are caster crits.

    But if you have a feral druid off-tank that is ALSO pounding away with Hurricane….


  7. Shrubs says:

    I usually open with Maul queued and then Mangle, to keep the initial heals from getting aggro on the healers.

    As for Frogs aggro during the fight, your dodge is probably still quite low, so you’ll have lots of rage. Use Maul whenever you’re above 50 rage. Most bears don’t use it enough, like most warriors need to learn to use Heroic Strike.

  8. Snotpaw says:

    My response to Froggy (I hope he doesn’t hate being called that!) would be this: explain to the Gnome how a threat meter works. Explain, with as much patience as you can muster, that when you pass the tank’s threat, you’re on shaky ground… and when a ranged DPS class passes 130% of the tank’s threat, he WILL pull aggro from the tank.

    Not “might” or “maybe”. This isn’t a game of Calvinball where the rules change every minute. It is a computer program. It works the way it works.

    I say this as someone who is currently running a DPS class through Kara, not someone who tanks:

    If you pull aggro from the tank, it is not the tank’s fault. Period. Watch your threat. That is simply how the game works.

    Some tanks can generate more threat than others, that’s true. When they do generate a bunch, you can go nuts on the DPS. If they can’t, then you can’t. The only point at which a tank is actually failing as a tank is when he doesn’t have enough threat + mitigation for the healer to be able to keep him up without drawing aggro. Even then, it may be the healer’s fault (for example, habitually over-healing).

    And so that I don’t sound too self-righteous here, I’ll admit to pulling aggro one time in Kara tonight, in fact. Lol… it happens to all of us. I think I was around 90% of the MT’s threat, then I guess I got a Frostbolt crit the same time the tank missed with an attack or something (always at least a 1% chance after all). Who knows. Needless to say, I got one-shotted and (re-) learned my lesson.

    No way in a million years would I blame the tank for that. That’s just immature. I went past his threat, I got aggro, I got attacked by raid trash, I got eaten. That’s the way the computer program works. It works that way every single time, too. Might as well tell your Gnome buddy to get used to it. :)

    Of course, a tank can be stunned, frozen, mind-controlled, feared, et cetera, and that can cause the mob to go after someone else even if their threat isn’t over the line. There are ways of coping with those special attacks, and blaming the tank is kind of silly in those situations, too.

    Again, I say all of this as a DPSer, not as a tank. Threat generation is the tank’s job… but threat MANAGEMENT is not. That’s the DPSers’ job. Don’t blame others when you fail to do your job.

    (And yes, strings of unlucky crits do happen, so nobody should bash a DPSer who pulls aggro once in a blue moon. Some people have a more… chronic… problem with it, though. Those people are hurting the group, and should either learn how the game works or go back to PvP. :)

  9. Doomy says:

    Just a though,

    As the undead in Kara are immune to the bleed debuff of lacerate, will it still generate more aggro then swipe/maul spamming at his level of gear? I know Maul resets the auto attack timer but I just thought I’d see what people think.


  10. Skippy says:

    The majority of Lacerates Threat is front loaded and only 1/5th of the bleed damage actually adds to the threat so its still better than swipe until you are over 2.25k AP or something (cant remember exact figure)

  11. Lanae says:

    I don’t pull Maiden with moonfire, just feral charge since she’s tanked in the middle of her plattform (or at least that’s how we do it) and tell DPS to wait until I’m at about 5k threat in Omen before they open fire.

    Moonfire / Starfire is very nice for larger heroics pull – starfire third target, moonfire second, gives me ample time to mangle / lacerate the first target (and enables DPS to get going very quickly) before having to continue establishing aggro on #2 and #3. Especially nice when swipe is not an option (CC in the way).

  12. BigBearButt says:

    I love it when I wake up, see someone asked a good question, and other folks already answered it. God bless you. I still need to check out that bear threat calculator, too.

    Thank you to Nkippy and Snotpaw.

    Lanae, I think you’re spot on. Damn good advice.

    I really didn’t try to talk about multiple mob pulls, because I made that post about tanking multiple mobs back months ago. I think it’s still valid, I guess I should go and re-read it. I am positive I have it linked on my sidebar, though. Bear tanking Multiple mobs, or some such.

    And if you want to see some great advice, check out the comments of that post.

  13. Kuro says:

    Another thing that you can do to build initial aggro is to cast some HOTs on yourself before the pull. I know that when I’m getting ready to grab a pull I always load myself up with regrowth, rejuv and a lifebloom, then moonfire, hit bearform and charge. The extra healing and the threat from the moonfire and its ticks adds up quickly, and with no threat reduction on my heals it really frontloads me and lets the dps jump in faster.

  14. Karlenn@Bonechewer says:

    BBB, thanks for the great macro and multi-mob tanking advice. I modified it slightly for a little more functionality:

    /cast [target=mouseover, nodead, harm] Lacerate; Lacerate

    This way if the user’s cursor happens to be somewhere else, i.e. hovering over other buttons or a corpse or just a blank part of the screen, the macro still spams Lacerate on the targeted mob.

    I’m also finding that a mod like TinyTip which can put the target’s (mouseover’s) target in the tooltip to be helpful.

    *slight hijack but you also mentioned the older post*

  15. BigBearButt says:

    OMIGOD!! an UPGRADE!!!

    I’m gonna go try that out tonight… if it works, can I update my article, giving you credit?

  16. Messyah says:

    MD is always a must-have. Not necessarily to help with aggro, but just to “misdirect” the aggro from a distance. Yes, we can pull with Faerie Fire, but it causes the same amount of aggro as me sneezing on my keyboard.

    In the time prior to Mangle debuffing, I keep Lacerate stacked 5 times. I use Maul when I can, but its the slowest of the 3 attacks and doesn’t generate as much aggro either.

    I do not use Enrage. I have 5 points in Furor, so I usually stay shifted out of Bear until the fight is about to begin. I even wait as long as until after the MD is fired and my pull is headed towards me. Don’t be skurred. LOL

    Always… ALWAYS keep Faerie Fire and Demoralizing Roar up whenever possible. It really does make a difference.

    Also, make sure your top hunters are in your group so they benefit from your Improved Leader of the Pack, which you had better have. If not, respec. ;-)

    My guild is now to the point where we are taking on Voidreaver, High King Mulgar, Gruul, 2-3 bosses in Zul’Aman, and soon we head after Lurker. We have brutal DPS in our raid group, and when I get 5 lacerates on a mob/boss, God himself couldn’t pull aggro from me.

    I had a few (bear) people ask me if they should get the threat enchant on their gloves. Truthfully, no self-respecting bear should need it. Now, with that said… it couldn’t hurt. You see, the enchant does nothing for “yellow damage.” So, it does not add threat when a Warriro spams Devestate, nor does it help Bears when they Mangle. The enchant adds threat to “white damage.” Essentially, adding aggro to your normal hits, so I guess it’s not a bad thing, perse.

    One thing I will say about Bears in Kara that sucks… they are all undead and therefore, none of them bleed (Except for the Shade of Aran)… DPS him in cat and make his bleed hard.

    (Don’t let this prevent you from using Lacerate in Kara, because it still generates threat.)

  17. BigBunz says:

    Thanks BBB. I really needed this “From the mailbag” and the great comments. I was close to emailing you myself. Keeping agro in instances is not consistant. It is ironic that I usually do better in a PUG than in groups with guildmates. In fact there is one warlock in the guild that consistantly pulls agro from me in guild group runs. It has been quite frustrating and I usually blame myself. But there is always the nagging thought that I was doing everything I could on multi-mob pulls and either lose agro on the main target or one of the adds. I am reading up on tactics, including your posts, for holding agro. I need to get that mouseover macro setup though. I think it will help a lot. The other steps I’ve taken since reading yours and other blogs are:

    Omen installed – check
    Crit immune – check
    Pull tactics using SF/MF – check
    Using lacerate liberally – check

    I don’t like switching out of bear form and losing my built-up rage, but I don’t think I have much choice with a multi-mob pull.

    I do have a question a little off topic. Do you have a list of the addons you use? I’ve watched your video and there are a few I see that I think would be useful, but I’m not sure what they are.

  18. saxononyx says:

    The issue is not , “how can you hold aggro” Your already doing that.

    This issue is DPS who have no clue ho to play. Who have no clue what a threat meter is or what it tells them if they do have one.

    Every tank in my Guild has a simple rule, Unless your a healer, “you pull it you tank it” It makes it so much easier to work on Kara, Gruul, SSC and TK with that in place. Our healers also tend to ignore any one who pulls, looking at it as break to regain mana, or get the main tank healed up.

    Thus our DPs have learned to watch DPs meters and keep them selves at a point were a crit will not over top the tank.

  19. Hochopepa (Blackhand) says:


    “Even then, it may be the healer’s fault (for example, habitually over-healing).”

    It seems like you are implying the healer is getting agro due to the threat generated from their ‘over-healing’.

    Terminology: The term over-healing means the healer healed you for more health than you needed. If you need 1000 health and their heal landed for 2000, they over-healed by 1000. (I am sure most people know this but just creating a refence point :-)

    Healing threat is only generated on the amount that is healed. In the above example, the spell generated 2000 health, however only 1000 of it was actually applied to the target. This would only generate 500 threat (one half the amount healed) There would not be any threat generated from the 1000 health that was wasted as over-healing.

  20. Hochopepa (Blackhand) says:

    *reference point

    (Edit: speeling)

  21. Logan says:

    Aggro generation suggestions are always helpful, but as other people have stated, the main issue with this guy’s raiding experience seems to be DPS’s failure to do their jobs… well, one DPS’s failure to do his job.

    If you’re bored, I’ve posted about this on my blog (http://feardotdotdot.blogspot.com), as it’s an issue that comes up quite frequently in raids (particular early raids like Kara).

    Oh and if this mage doesn’t have a threat meter, stop taking him to raids until he gets one.

  22. Pesce says:

    I’m a little late on my post, but let me give you the perspective of an aggro puller vs one trying to keep aggro.

    I’m a very well gear’d and spec’d Moonkin, and my damage can be unbelievable at times, especially if I chain crit. After running Kara and Gruuls numerous times and with different tank types, I’ve found that more times than not the tank is more the issue than the Dps’er. Afterall, how long does a tank expect a dpser to stand around with a thumb up our asses until he can build-up enough threat? Quit worrying about armor and dodge and focus more on Stamina and damage. A tank needs to get hit, not avoid it. And a tank needs to put out massive damage to keep it.

    In my opinion, if a tank loses aggro, it’s more the tank’s fault than the dpser. And yes, When I pull aggro, I tank it, and nobody else will be able to pull it from me. Why? Becasue I put out the damage. That’s the key.

    It also helps to have 18k armor and 12k health. Btw, this is not a wise move for any other class besides Ret Pally’s…:))

  23. SuraBear says:

    Pesce: That would be true, if we tanks didn’t also have to SURVIVE the hits we’re taking for you. A tank’s job is not simply “Keep aggro off of the squishies”. Its “Keep aggro off of the squishies, survive taking those hits, take little enough damage from those hits that the healers can keep us up, and make sure the healer’s mana will last to the end of the fight.”

    Three of those roles demand mitigation and Stamina. One requires Threat generation. Guess which one we heavily favor, and why.

    And to quote an axiom of my guild’s recruitment officer (Rogue): Your DPS is 0 when you’re dead.

  24. Messyah says:

    “Quit worrying about armor and dodge and focus more on Stamina and damage. A tank needs to get hit, not avoid it. And a tank needs to put out massive damage to keep it.”

    You obviously don’t understand the mechanics of the game, or at least when it comes to tanking. Prot Wariors do little-to-no damage and yet they are considered to be the overall best tanks for end-game content. Most tanks have abilities that generate threat, but it is a fixed amount of threat. Warriors have Sunder, Druids have Lacerate and Paladins have Holy magic along with a buff they put on themselves. Believe it or not, damage is secondary to all of these skills/talents. So, I suggest you get a bit more well-read on the subject before commenting.

    And to say that a tank “needs to get hit” is completely asinine. Are you sure you play WoW?

    “In my opinion, if a tank loses aggro, it’s more the tank’s fault than the dpser. And yes, When I pull aggro, I tank it, and nobody else will be able to pull it from me. Why? Becasue I put out the damage. That’s the key.”

    Are you talking about instances like The Stockades? Cause that attitude will get you no where fast in end-game content. I know if you even so much as hinted towards that belief in my raid group, you’d get the swift kick.

    “It also helps to have 18k armor and 12k health. Btw, this is not a wise move for any other class besides Ret Pally’s…:))”

    I’d love to see you or any other Ret Pally tank VR, Gruul, Lurker, etc. It would be wipe city. 18k armor and 12k health helps you stay alive in raids as a DPS, but without the talents to back it up, VR would have Ret Pally juice on his boots all night long. LOL

  25. Pesce says:

    I don’t want to get into a pissing match here, but you obviously aren’t listening to what’s being said. Very few tanks can hold aggro from the begining and keep it, while many lose it after 2 crits from a major Dps’er. In end game, you don’t have pussies dealing damage, so the Tank better be on his game.

    From my standpoint, I usually sit around for half a boss fight licking my feathery nutts waiting for the tank to build threat, then string 3 crits together and watch the bad guy make a bee-line towards me as my screen shakes and turns red.

    That is a crap-ass tank imo, regardless of how many freakin purples he’s wearing. (23k Armor, 18k Health. Bah!)He’s obviously wearing the wrong purples.

    Messyah, you said 5 lacerates and God wont be able to pull aggro from you. You sir are I tank I would luv to run with. At least I wouldn’t get yelled at by the raid leader for not dpsing enough…

  26. Bob says:

    Pesce – This is in no way a dig to you, but I have NEVER seen a Boomkin that can put out enough to even make it look like the can pull aggro. It could be that I haven’t run with a Boomkin in full badge gear, or it could be that they are still under-powered when compared to Mages, Warlocks and Shaman.

    If I get to do my norm, which is Moonfire, Mangle, Lacerate… by the 3rd Lacerate, dps can have at it. We have hunters topping out at 1300+ dps, mages that go as high as 1500+ and Locks who hold their own with the mages, and extremely rarely do they pull aggro.

    Now, when I meantioned VR before, it is very important that NO dps take aggro from the 3-4 tanks assigned to him because he has an ability that knocks the top-aggro tank at the time and flushes ALL aggro from them. This is why you have 3-4 tanks. Now, if you or any other dps takes aggro from a tank, when he flushes, he’s coming for you and he hits HARD! So at times, white damage is imperative.

    We have a pally tank that is improperly geared and he unfortunately loses aggro all the time. :-( I am working on rectifying that situation.

    Oh, and Pally tanks are in no way, shape or form designed to be main tanks. Their job is mobs, hence the aggro scaling aoe they get.

  27. Bob says:

    Oh, if you want to look me up on the armory, here’s my info. I can give you a link now cause the armory is blocked at the office.

    Name: Nocturneus

    Server: Antonidas

    Guild: Eternal (I’m the GM)

  28. Messyah says:

    (Oops, those last two comments were mine. I have more than one Gmail account.)

  29. Pesce says:

    I’m a nasty ass bird, Bob. Those ornaments that Moonkins wear on our feathers are really Feral tails. I eat them for lunch…lol

    And yes, I pull aggro all the time. Most times I do it on purpose cause I’m tired of sucking my thumb (Usually the trash), and our healers are ready for it cause it is expected now(They wont let their favorite bird die). Bosses are never intentinal.

    Regarding Pally tanks, they are the ones that I rarely pull aggro from. Them and Ferals. Warriors are crap imo, except when you need sheild bash for spell interupts. Then I like’em… Warriors I have a hard time pulling from are usually Fury. I try never to run with protection.

    Am I just wierd?

  30. Mard says:

    My main is a well geared Rogue and I can tell you with authority that I can pretty much pull aggro from any tank. It is my job to watch the threat meter and manage that DPS. If the tank lives, the healers live, then everyone lives. That being said, my alt is a bear tank. Getting up there in gear but not quite where I like to be. When I RL with my bear, and a melee/caster pulls aggro, they get an ear full. First times an accident, after that it’s on like Donkey Kong. Word.

  31. Messyah says:

    I wouldn’t say you are weird. You are apparently just running with the wrong Prot warriors. ;-)

    What is your Toon name and server. I’d love to share your spec and gear with our Boomkins… who knows, maybe they can be useful. LOL

    I promise you when I tell you that I will kick a Moonkin’s ass any day of the week. I can either out-last them in my Bear set, or rape their feathery asses in my DPS/Cat gear. I have over 3K AP and 35% crit, plus thanks to the Vengeful gloves, I have a spell interrupt.

    Vengeful FTW!

  32. wowup says:

    Nice reading.

  33. Snotpaw says:

    Hochopepa –

    Thanks for educating me about overhealing and threat. I was indeed assuming that a 3k heal would generate the same threat whether the target was down by 3k or 1k. I avoid overhealing in any case for the sake of mana conservation, but it’s good to know there’s not a threat penalty for it as well if it happens.

    Pesce –

    Wow, man. Not sure what to say, lol. Like I said, some tanks can generate more threat than others, but each one can only generate so much. A well-geared DPS class “pulling out all the stops” will usually be able to put out more threat than a well-geared tank. At least in a multi-mob situation, if nothing else. There are times when you should do all the DPS that you can… like in PvP. At other times, your responsibility is to keep your threat below the tank’s threat.

    Why? Because he can’t make his threat go higher. If he could, he would, right? You CAN make yours go lower. That’s really all there is to it.

    You are right about a tank needing to get hit, by the way. Warriors and Druids need Rage in order to put out the serious threat, and Paladins likewise need mana (which they can get from being hit in combat as well). I think BBB himself has commented on being over-geared for some content. If you dodge too many attacks, for example, it can be hard to get enough Rage to hold aggro well. Other times, you simply have to have it to live. It depends on the fight.

    I will say (with no offense intended) that the whole attitude of “I’m going to do as much damage as I can, and screw the tanks and healers – if they don’t like it, they should get better!” is not very conducive to a good instance experience. Every competent raid leader I have ever known would remove you from the roster until you learned how to use a threat meter. At the same time, if the raid’s tank wasn’t putting out enough threat to let the DPSers do ENOUGH damage to down the boss / trash in question, then he would take THEM to task as well. A good raid leader is an equal-opportunity toe-stomper!

    Don’t get me wrong – there ARE sucky tanks out there. All I’m saying is that the way to deal with them is not to blow past them on the threat meter and THEN complain about how much they suck, because then you’ve just ruined it for everyone. The proper way to deal with them is to simply avoid grouping with them.

    If you hook up with a tank that can hold mobs off of you and still allow you to do all this amazing damage, you’ll be one happy bird. But until you find one, just remember that the ones you group with in the meantime are doing the best they can… and they CAN’T just push a magic button and put out more threat. Really…. they can’t.

    I’ll say it again: threat MANAGEMENT is your responsibility, because you can always choose to produce less threat – but the tank can’t usually choose to produce more. If you get bored waiting until the tank has enough threat for you to start your DPS, you can:

    1. Look for a tank that can produce more threat

    2. PvP (no threat meters, yay!)

    3. Ask yourself why waiting for a few seconds bothers you so much anyway, when millions of other DPSers do it every day. :)

    The inescapable fact is that when you pass the tank on threat and get aggro, there WAS something you could have done to prevent it… but there WASN’T anything the tank could have done. So… using logic, not emotion… who failed?

    Not trying to be argumentative or anything… these are just very simple game mechanics, and there’s no point in debating them. Tanks tank, DPSers DPS, and healers heal… in most cases, they only have to heal the tank when everything is going right (AOE attacks being the usual exception). When DPSers are tanking and needing heals, things simply aren’t going right. The tank has to work harder trying to get a mob back from you, which means he’s NOT producing threat on the other targets he’s trying to hold, which endangers the healers. The healers are being over-taxed (and further endangered) because they have to heal the tank AND you. The other DPSers are all confused and alarmed, and melee DPS in particular now have to start moving around, trying to get behind the target repeatedly as it bounces aggro and turns this way and that, et cetera. Congratulations, you’ve just turned a smooth fight into a total mess. Stop and think… what did you REALLY get in return? If you had done it the other way, the mobs would be dead, and the group would end the fight with more health and mana and lower repair costs. Why is it better to do it the sloppy way? I guess I just don’t get it.

    Maybe I’m the weird one, I dunno! :)

    Anyway, dun get mad at me just for responding, lol. I don’t hate your awesome bird pew pew! I’ve always thought b00mkins were a really cool class anyway, and I’m glad there are a few out there who can lay some smackdown. :)

    Besides, the /dance animation is awesome.

  34. Logan says:

    I’m not sure who said it and frankly it’s early and I’m a bit too lazy to scroll through all the posts again, but I’d like to note that Paladins CAN be main tanks and do as good a job or better than the other two tanking classes in most endgame content, the exception being some of the later bosses in tier 6 content.

    My guild is currently finishing up SSC/TK (we only have Vashj and Kael to go… and Vashj is almost dead) and our best prot pally has successfully main tanked many of the big boss fights. I’m sure he would’ve tanked more if some of them weren’t so gimmicky as to almost require a pally off-tank for adds (think Al’ar, Solarian, Tidewalker, Dragonhawk in ZA…).

    Speaking of ZA, I even prefer a paladin as main tank on Zul’Jin, who completely drops aggro between each of his 5 phases. A well-played paladin can front-load more threat than the other tanking classes so that the DPS can burn him through each phase before he kills too many people with his abilities (which do massive damage to nearly every raid member… I hope you brought your pots). With crusader judged and kept up on the boss through the whole fight, all it takes is an Avenger’s Shield, Judgement of Righteousness, and Consecrate at each phase switch and not even the most crit-happy mage or boomkin will come close to the paladin’s threat before the phase is over.

    @Pesce- The more of the posts of yours I read the more it seems like you are simply running with poor or undergeared tanks. Are you in a raiding guild? Those tend to have better tanks than can be found in the general population because they have access to higher end gear. Are you pugging your tanks? Well… in that case you’re asking for trouble. How far into level 70 content are you? I ask this because I’ve noticed that the early level 70 instance, heroic and 10-man raid gear for casters and DPS is much easier to come by than decent tank gear is. Casters can easily double their spell damage within a couple weeks of hitting seventy simply by making their crafted sets and running Kara and heroics a few times to pick up some gear and get enough badges to buy a couple pieces of badge gear. The tanking gear at this point in the game is far from doubling any tank class’s stats that quickly.

    Join a new guild, get some better tanks for your current guild, or just give it some time until the tanks catch up with their gearing. Eventually you’ll be able to go nuts with the damage on 90% of bosses and you will still be struggling to pass even 100% of the tank’s threat, let alone the 130% required to pull aggro. I guarantee it.


  35. geerock says:

    This method sounds very similar to what I do in Kara. I just started last week and this week I am running through my second run.

    The biggest problemt that I seemto be having in general is when it is requested of me to tank multiple mobs. I can’t seem to generate that threat quickly enough.

  36. Messyah says:

    Logan - It’s not a lack of threat that make Paladins third on the MT list for end-game content, it’s lack of mitigation. In the end, a well-geared Prot Warrior or Feral Bear will always eat more damage than a Paladin. It’s the way the classes are designed. If you look on any of the Tankadin sites out there, they all tend to agree.

    Geerock – Mark the multiple mobs, determine a kill order and then individually focus on the main target of the kill order, meanmwhile continue to Swipe to hit the others as well. A good way to start this all is to have a hunter MD on you and then multi-shot. It is very important that your DPS only attacks the same one you are focused on with Mangles & Lacerates. Also, as BBB mentioned in this post (or a previous one), a Priest can cast “Prayer of Mending” on you and they healing it produces puts threat on the Tank, not the healer.

  37. Logan says:

    I agree completely, though with recent pally buffs their mitigation has improved… as well as their health pool.

    It really boils down to the dynamics of each individual boss fight. For longer fights where a boss hits like a truck (think Gruul, Magtheridon, Nalorakk), I’d want a warrior or a druid primarily because of their better mitigation and the fact that they can easily replenish their primary threat source (their rage bar). For shorter fights (Doom Lord Kazzak), fights where the bosses themselves don’t hit very hard (Solarian), and fights with aggro dumps where quick pickup and aggro generation are key (Leotheras, Zul’jin) I’d definitely prefer a paladin main tank. There are even some “key” fights where a paladin’s class-specific skills make make main tanking the boss much easier (for Lady Vashj a pally can keep BoF up on himself to avoid getting rooted and he can also make good use of Avenger’s shield in phase 2 to pick up elites before they one-shot the clothies). Hell, there are even some fights where having a paladin eliminates the need for an off-tank (Attumen).

    There are a few fights in the game where it’d be stupid to not have a warrior MT (Illidan comes to mind), and a few where paladins rarely ever MT because they’re on adds, and it’s rare to find a guild with two well-geared prot paladins. But for the most part, paladins are just as capable as the other two classes.

    People get hung up on the lack of mitigation because they likely don’t realize that prot paladins NEED to take more damage to sustain their “blue rage bar” (the mana bar, as most paladin threat is generated through spells). In-fight prot pally mana regen comes from being healed, as they get back a portion of mana based on how much healing they get. This mechanic frustrates a lot of healers at first because it requires them to burn more mana healing the main tank than if they had a warrior or druid tank in the lead spot, but eventually they warm to pally tanks because they experience less problems with DPS pulling aggro (and thus requiring the healers to burn even MORE of their mana on healing the raid) and because the front-loaded threat allows the raid to do more damage earlier in the fight… downing the boss quicker and reducing the chance of the out-of-mana issues that come with healing a fight that drags on and on. Besides, there are few bosses in the game that hit hard enough that the difference in damage mitigation between the classes makes enough of a difference to be game-breaking (assuming the tank is appropriately geared for the encounter and the healers are on their game).

    All that being said, there are pros and cons to each tanking class. I’m a firm believer that paladins are just as capable as druids and warriors to tank in most endgame situations, because I have seen a number of successful pally tanks in action. The bias against pally tanks comes from pre-bc (and even post-bc before prot pallies were buffed) when paladins were nigh worthless as tanks.

  38. Messyah says:

    @ Logan – I do admit that since Blizz so kindly gave Pally’s a boost in HP, they have become more viable. I’m still waiting for Bears to get a “Swat” ability that has a chance to disarm. :-)

    It all comes down to utilization and necessity. Bears and Warriors have a multi-mob taunt, but it only holds aggro for a short time. Pallys have their AOE. That right there says that they should be assigned to Mobs first.

    We have a pally tank that does extremely well in some boss fights, even as a MT, but he knows when he is out-matched and that is when he gives his spot to a Bear or Warrior. Now, if you are a Pally tank and you’re not a rockstar in Kara, you should quit. LOL – Kara is all Undead… a Pally’s dream.

    As far as a Pally needing to get hit, that DOES suck for the healers because end-game content is all about mana conservation. If they have to continually heal the tank to keep his mana, which equals threat/aggro up, that is extremely inefficient and will result in OOM city. When you are fighting bosses that have 5 million + HP, mana regen and healer crit is everything, but if what you say is true for a pally tank, as a healer I would NEVER want one on the main Boss. Sorry.

  39. Logan says:

    Hmmm… I guess it does little good to debate whether a pally tank COULD main tank most endgame bosses. I know that, with a few exceptions, all three tank classes have the potential to main tank most of the endgame bosses (i.e. a druid tank could NEVER tank Illidan, since the only way to avoid his Shear is to block it). The argument really comes down to the raid’s/guild’s preference and playstyle. Some raid setups actually favor pally tanks and almost nullify the mana issues associated with dealing a tank taking a lot of damage. For example, throw a shadow priest in the healer groups as a mana battery (and/or a shaman for mana spring totems), have the tanking paladin switch to judgement of wisdom after he builds a good threat lead so he can help keep his own mana pool up, and have a ret pally in the raid keeping seal of light on the boss so that damage dealers get some extra healing. Then your healers will be begging for something to heal! But then, that’s a very specific raid setup that depends on group synergy more than it depends on a “healers keeping the tank alive” system of thought.

    Still, there are some endgame bosses that I wouldn’t want anything but a paladin tanking (again, Leotheras and Zul’Jin). Most of the rest are up to raid preference.

    We’ll see where blizzard takes the class with the upcoming expansion. It seems to me like they’ve been moving toward making paladin tanks more and more viable with each new patch. I don’t think bliz created the class to primarily be healers. If that’s the case then they really don’t like their players, because pally healers get a whopping two options for healing and one (arguably two) options for dispelling. Healing as a pally, while effective and fast, is incredibly boring.

    I’d like to see more endgame bosses where the paladin is the “BEST” tanking option, and not just “another” or in some cases “a novelty” option. Pallies have a ton of skills that are incredibly useful for tanking that could be used to their full potential if they only got more opportunities to do so. Maybe the solution is to just give them more mitigation and fix their mana issues?

    I like how we have turned this into a paladin/tanking thread…

  40. Pesce says:

    I don’t know if you all are still reading this post. Looks like I stir’d up some fun.

    Logan – I’m with you man. Pally tanks are awesome. Better in many situations than a Warrior. AND, you can rez :))

    Messyah – Character name Pesce – Alexstraza – Alliance – I forget the battle group (it suks ass anyway) lol


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