Damnit, I figured I was done posting for Thursday, and here comes the biggest freaking Druid Tank news I can imagine on a slow and dreary Thursday.

 According to WoW Insider, tonights new PTR build has a host of area effect abilites NOT breaking CC types that normally breaks on damage, like Sap and Sheep.

And among those listed is our good friend, Swipe.

God bless Blizzard. Trees, I’m sorry, I feel your pain about Lifebloom, especially since the Warlock whining apparently got the Lifetap nerf rolled back, but Swipe don’t break CC?

 OMIGOD!

To quote the PTR official patch notes;

  • Swipe: This ability will no longer strike any secondary targets which are under the effect of crowd-control spells that break on taking damage. i.e. Polymorph, Sap, etc.
  • Seriously. Holy freaking….

    And it’s not limited to Druid loving…  many other classes get stuff like this too.

    Is it too carebear? Does it eliminate a large part of the need for Tanking Druids to actually use skill and manuever mobs into positions from which to maintain aggro without breaking CC?

    Well, I don’t know yet. I would think that it will take some of the fun out of playing a tank and maintaining situational awareness.

    I DO know, it looks like this might signal the end of one of the longest running jokes/screams/cries in the entire game….

    “WHO BROKE MY SHEEP!?!?!?!”

    26 Responses to “On PTR! Swipe no longer breaks Crowd Control!”
    1. Vaage says:

      I have two things to say. First, great news for bears, and even for warrior tanks. Secondly, where’s the love for tankadins? Nothing about consecration? Bah, a pox upon them I say!

    2. SuraBear says:

      Meh, I guess I’m too hardcore for my own good, I don’t like it. Then again, I never use CC anyhow, so it doesn’t affect me *shrug*

      I guess it means I dont have to worry as much about bad PuG members screwing up my sheeps, traps, and seduces when playing my alts though.

    3. Fathul says:

      I think it takes too much out of the game. What’s wrong with requiring a little skill to play? People don’t roll tanks so that they can sit in one place spamming one button to do their job, that’s what dps classes are for.

    4. Messyah says:

      I would say that this is not necessary, but recently my swipe has had a monster range. Our mages have a mod that alert when their sheep is being broken by whom. Well, in SSC I kept hitting a sheep that was easily 15 yards away. It was freaky. Aside from that, we managed to 1-shot Lurker and Leo in under 2 hours. It was FUN.

    5. Logan says:

      While I’m happy that druid tanking will be less stressful, I’m a bit perturbed by Blizzard’s continuous “dumbing down” of the PvE experience. This change to crowd-control is not the first change we’ve heard about to make the PvE part of the game easier for casual players. We had the change of many elite quest targets to non-elite in order make the “solo player’s” experience easier. We’re about to have one of the more interesting fights in BC, Magtheridon, nerfed because people are too lazy to do him and Bliz wants more people to see the encounter. The whole reason for that nerf is because Blizzard removed SSC/TK attunement and no one NEEDS to fight him. More attunements are about to be removed… Black Temple, Mount Hyjal, and even Karazhan. They released badge gear in 2.3 that’s as good or better than a lot of the gear in tier 4 and 5 content. They’re about to release more badge gear that’s on par with tier 6. Soon people will be able to gear themselves up for Sunwell without even stepping foot in Gruul’s Lair, Serpentshrine Cavern, or Tempest Keep.

      I know I sound like a crotchety old man here, but where’s the incentive for players to actually put time into the game and learn to play well? What’s the incentive to bust our asses and spend hours, days, weeks, and months slogging through raid content to down bosses that we know will probably eventually be nerfed, or at least will be made easier by “wellfare” loot that overgears players before they even set foot in the boss’s instance?

      It’s like training for months to run a marathon fast enough to qualify for the big one, the Boston Marathon (which, if you’re not a runner, you should know requires a fairly fast time to qualify for). You train and you train. You eat right. You study the sport and learn about pacing. Your run… a lot.

      Then race day comes and you find out that not only are they removing the qualifying times for the Boston Marathon, they’re going to start allowing people to complete the race on bicycles if they so wish. Sure, there’s pride in finishing the race on foot, having qualified for it the legitimate way, but the accomplishment is devalued by the fact that so many other people were able to experience the race without putting forth one tenth of the effort that you did.

      Hopefully WotLK will make PvE play difficult again…. maybe?

      /endrant

    6. Messyah says:

      Logan, all this nerfing and pillow-padding of the game boils down to one reason… the want to sell millions of copies of WotLK and in order to do that, they need to make as many 70’s as possible.

      It truly ruins the experience for my 70 druid, but I quite enjoy the world-nerf when it comes to leveling my countless alts. lol

    7. Kal says:

      I don’t think it is a pillow-padding or anything like that. The fact is, some of these abilities were just flat-out broken in situations that they shouldn’t have been. Both swipe and avenger’s shield were unpredictable to the point of unusability in certain situations, and that wasn’t very fun. Between that and the ‘no hitting critters’ thing, this makes tanking more predictable. And when something is more predictable is when skill becomes more important, not less.

      Swipe would routinely hit people behind me 10 yards away. I don’t think that it is reasonable that I get punished for client/server latency. That’s not skill or lackthereof.

      I know I sound like a crotchety old man here, but where’s the incentive for players to actually put time into the game and learn to play well?

      The incentive to do the harder stuff while it’s harder is up to you; personally, I like to early adopt and I like a challenge. If the challenge isn’t part of the fun for you, and you’re only wanting the prestige, I don’t think WoW is going in a direction you’ll want to be in. And honestly? As a newer player coming up the ranks, I want some of the earlier stuff to be easier so that I can get to the harder stuff more quickly and catch up with other people that have been on since dirt. If you don’t do that you end up with a cadre of very happy elite gamers – but no one else.

      Secondly, where’s the love for tankadins?

      Avenger’s shield doesn’t break sap/sheep AND doesn’t chain to critters. That’s a whole lotta lovin. Not that most paladins wanted a lot of CC to begin with…

    8. Messyah says:

      Now, what they NEED to do is make swipe hit totems… it’s complete bullsh*t that it doesn’t now.

    9. Graham says:

      “We had the change of many elite quest targets to non-elite in order make the “solo player’s” experience easier.”

      With all due respect, that wasn’t so much “dumbing down” the game, as it was making it possible to actually complete said elite-quests in the new Post-BC environment, where Azeroth is practically deserted. Seriously, it’s bad enough that my last 2 alts had to skip pretty much all the old instance content, or run them with under-manned and over-levelled groups. It was nice to get the 1-60 over with quickly, so I could actually head over to Hellfire and actually see some other players for a change.

      I *am* a little disappointed that they’re “uncomplicating” the Mag encounter though, as my guild only stuck our noses in there for the first time last week. Still, I’m guessing 2.4 isn’t going to go live for a while yet, so I live in hope that we can drop him at least once before he becomes “ez-mode”. :)

      Point the second: If you want to complain about “welfare” loot, heroic badge rewards are a bad place to start. As it stands, heroics are not exactly easy, and amassing a significant number of badges takes quite a long time in comparison to, say, Honor. Never mind you still get PvP rewards even if you lose constantly, it just takes longer. If you “lose” in a heroic dungeon run, you generally get nothing at all.

      It’s also nice that the Badge system exists at all, so that people who can’t raid for one reason or another still have a reason to keep playing at 70. We don’t all have the time to devote to raid-content, so it’s good to have some other form of “endgame”. I’m not sure if anyone remembers, but it kinda sucked to be stuck in level 57-blue gear forever unless you could raid 40-man, which is basically how it was Pre-BC.

      “Soon people will be able to gear themselves up for Sunwell without even stepping foot in Gruul’s Lair, Serpentshrine Cavern, or Tempest Keep.”

      Lastly, I think that might be the point. It’s probably a good thing that a guild running Black Temple doesn’t have to go back to TK and SSC just to gear up alts and such. It’d be far more efficient to just blow up Kara once a week on an off night(takes a BT guild what, 3 hours?), and the new guys can run other heroics on their own time, and it doesn’t affect the guild’s regular raiding schedule that much, or at all. And the nice thing is, you’re not depending on random drops from loot tables to do it.

    10. Graham says:

      “Now, what they NEED to do is make swipe hit totems… it’s complete bullsh*t that it doesn’t now.”

      Totems have almost 0 health. If they were vulnerable to AoE effects of any kind, then removing totems would become totally trivial, and that would pretty much break the entire shaman class.

      A workaround though, if you insist, is to target the totem and then swipe, which will destroy the totem, and still hit your original target anyway. It still won’t get more than one totem, but there you go. If that’s too hard for you, then I suggest you start playing a shaman.

    11. Messyah says:

      As a newer player coming up the ranks, I want some of the earlier stuff to be easier so that I can get to the harder stuff more quickly and catch up with other people that have been on since dirt.

      Kal, in that very statement, you essentially summed up why folks like Logan and myself are disgusted with some of the baby-safe changes being made to the World or Warcraft. My guild is in SSC, The Eye and looking towards the Black Temple and Mount Hyjal, but since we first opened the gates to Kara, we learned our way through the dungeon. We may have suffered countless wipes on bosses, but in the end we dropped them and from that point on, we always had that boss’ number. The fun is in learning how to work with one another, learning the strategies of the different bosses, the pulls of mobs to get to those bosses and the victory of clearing the place.

      If they continue to pad those experiences for future players, when it comes time for WotLK to be released, those same new players will in no way be ready for the apparent difficulties that await. They are making the game more casual-friendly and that is fine, but our guild has already resolved ourselves to the fact that we will not accept any casual players looking to raid once in a while.

      Truthfully, new players should not have handed to them what we seasoned players had to work for simply because you bought the game later than we did. If you want a jump start, get on ebay and buy a 70 epic t00n, otherwise continue to progress like the rest of us have.

      There is an unwritten cycle in progression. You do heroic dungeons to get geared for Kara. You do Karazhan(10) and eventually Gruul’s Lair(25) and Magtheridon(25) to prepare you for Zul’Aman(10), Tempest Keep: The Eye(25) and Serpentshrine Cavern(25). You do those raids to prepare for entry into The Black Temple(25) and Mount Hyjal(25). Progression from there continues with the release of The Sunwell Plateau (10/25) in patch 2.4, and eventually whatever awaits in the release of Wrath of the Lich King.

      To be honest, even if they tell me swipe will no longer break sheep, I will continue to be mindful of where I am tanking in relation to CC’d mobs. Why? Well, for one, I have no faith in Blizzard when they make new changes. Also, someday in the future it may change and I don’t want to be in a lazy mindset. Also, I succeed and excel just fine with my current play style, so there is no reason to change it up.

      As an added note, when leveling an alt a few weak ago, I was deeply saddened by what a PU$$Y the made Vile Priestess Hexx in the Hinterlands. She used to be a fun fight, but now she is a complete and total POOOOOOOOHAAAAAAAAA!

    12. Logan says:

      Heh, I love being bitchy and getting responses. Everyone makes very valid points that I understand and in some cases even agree with. I’m mostly just complaining like an old codger.

      A couple things I’d like to respond to, though:

      1. My main reason for hating attunement removal is not because it allows people access to content that previously only accessible to the “elite few.” My main reasoning for hating this supposed easing of requirements is because it no longer requires players to complete benchmark formative battles to progress to the harder ones. Sure, Void Reaver is wayyy easier than Magtheridon, but Lady Vashj is much harder. So is Kael. The completion of Magtheridon teaches a guild necessary coordination skills early in their progression that they will use later on, so they don’t get to the harder fights and have no clue what to do. Honestly, I think the removal of the Mag fight as an attunement requirement is one of the primary reasons why Kael and Vashj are considered “guild-breaking” bosses. It’s because guilds can cruise into SSC and TK, kill the preceeding bosses (all of which are FAR easier than Kael and Vashj), and then they get blindsided by a fight mechanic that they’re not used to. They inevitably struggle, far more than Blizzard probably intended, and they frequently disband. I see the same thing happening in 2.4 with the removal of Kael and Vashj as requirements for guilds to face tier 6 content. If a guild doesn’t/can’t down Kael’thas, they’re certainly not going to come anywhere near downing Illidan.

      2. Graham, you have a valid point about badge gear not being the easy “welfare” loot that I made it out to be. By the time that heroics, Kara, and ZA are actually easy clears, the loot to be had from badges is really at a level where it’s just there to fill in the gaps that players have in their gearing in order to prepare for harder challenges. The problem with the 2.4 badge loot is that they’re using the same type of badges for the newer, much better gear. Enterprising players are already stockpiling their “old” badges in preparation for HUGE upgrades once the patch hits… upgrades that will skyrocket their gear progression in very little time. IMO Blizzard should do with the new badge loot do what they did with their nether/vortex/heart requirements as BC raid content progressed. The better mats that were required for making the better gear were only available in higher level instances. If Blizzard makes a new type of badge that’s available only in, say, 25-man instances, it will keep players from moving their gear level far past the level that they or their guilds are ready for skill/organization-wise.

      3. Finally, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think that some content should only be seen by hardcore raiders. That’s a lame way to think. I just don’t see why Blizzard shouldn’t do with WotLK what they did with BC…. make the gearing better in the expansion, allowing players who originally weren’t progressed enough to see the final endgame content to complete it because they’re overgeared. They’re trying to do it in bits and pieces now, without giving enough new content to the fully progressed raiders to make them feel like they’ve been gypped in having to put forth so much time to gain access to and gear up for endgame and now anyone can just grab some badge loot and walk in. With a new xpac out, old BT/Sunwell guilds won’t care about who makes it into their old instances, because they’ll already be fully entrenched in their new raid content. I just don’t think the solution to wanting to get more people to see endgame content is to make it easier… at least not until there’s new harder content out there to keep the old crusty veterans happy.

      Sorry if I’m not making much sense here. It’s been a long day at work. In a nutshell, I’m not opposed to letting everyone eventually have access to endgame content and gear. I’m just opposed to the methods that Blizzard employs to achieve this goal. Nerfing instances and removing attunements is just a bad idea… at least in my opinion.

    13. Messyah says:

      Totems have almost 0 health. If they were vulnerable to AoE effects of any kind, then removing totems would become totally trivial, and that would pretty much break the entire shaman class.

      I would rather they be vulnerable and have health, and some of the totems do have health… but truthfully, I was thinking more on the lines of the Halazzi fight in ZA, where the totems have uber-health.

      Also, IMHO, Swipe is not an AOE by AOE standards. It is a physical attack that hits 2 additional targets (3 total). That is hardly an AOE. And being that it is a Physical Attack, and you are saying to target the totems directly, wtf is the difference whether I hit them with Mangle or swipe???

      I’m not asking to make them succeptable to Arcane Explosion, Rain of Fire, Hurricane, etc.

      If that’s too hard for you, then I suggest you start playing a shaman.

      Dude, If I did start playing a Shaman, they WOULD make Swipe hit totems. LOL

    14. Logan says:

      One last thing and then I’ll (probably) STFU:

      I think the background behind all of this is rooted in my experiences as a WoW player that started post-BC. I really, REALLY like some of the pre-BC instances. From Scholo and Strat to Naxx, these are all super-cool dungeons. I go out of my way to try and get groups to run these whenever possible, especially on my alt (who just dinged 61 last week, so he’s only slightly past their gearing level… and actually undergeared for BWL and Naxx). It’s a shame that 99.9% of new WoW players will never be able to fight Baron Rivendare or Ragnaros as they were intended to be fought: by an appropriately progressed group/guild with gear that roughly matches the difficulty of the encounter.

      Unfortunately it’s an inevitability that as expansions come out, old world content will slowly fall off the radar, becoming at best a weekend novelty for most players. I just don’t understand why Blizzard seems to want to hasten this process BEFORE the expansion has even come out. It’s a tremendous shame that WotLK won’t even be out and people will be like “Kael’thas? oh, I’ve never done that fight” as they walk around in tier 6 and Sunwell gear.

    15. Kal says:

      Kal, in that very statement, you essentially summed up why folks like Logan and myself are disgusted with some of the baby-safe changes being made to the World or Warcraft. My guild is in SSC, The Eye and looking towards the Black Temple and Mount Hyjal, but since we first opened the gates to Kara, we learned our way through the dungeon.

      Ah, got it. So you were there taking on Vashj and Kael before they got nerfed the first time then? Or you took on Mags when he was even harder? Sorry for the snark, but if you’re on SSC/TK right now you’ve already seen the benefits of those ‘baby-safe’ changes that you’re clamouring against.

      The fun is in learning how to work with one another, learning the strategies of the different bosses, the pulls of mobs to get to those bosses and the victory of clearing the place.
      I’m not advocating that they make the dungeons so easy that anyone can do them ever. I like making progress. But the most important thing to me is being able to play with friends. If I can’t reasonably do so because they are so far ahead of me in progress, that isn’t fun. If you accelerate the early going on this so you can get to the later content more quickly, that doesn’t change learning the content or figuring out the bosses or trash packs or any of that. Not one bit. It changes perhaps how long you have to keep Kara on farm, but so what?

      My ability to go through Kara more quickly thanks to alternate forms of loot or easier encounters in no way diminishes your accomplishments.

      If they continue to pad those experiences for future players, when it comes time for WotLK to be released, those same new players will in no way be ready for the apparent difficulties that await.

      No, what’s going to happen in WotLK is the same thing that happened with BC; people got a quick boost of gear to get them to near T1ish levels so that they could survive and have a good time, then they’d have to get geared up and learn their new abilities for the next ten levels. Those that were already doing well in progression did well in progression and would do so; those that were having a harder time would not. There will be a learning curve and for those on the bleeding edge they’ll have an easier time, and that’s how it should be.

      I guess I don’t see why you should care whether or not someone does raids that you’ve already surpassed, even if those raids are easier now.

      Truthfully, new players should not have handed to them what we seasoned players had to work for simply because you bought the game later than we did.

      So you’d advocate that no one gets those awesome greens as soon as they hit HFP then? That they have to grind Ragnaros, Onyxia, BWL, Naxx before setting foot in outland? Again, why does this matter to you? You were able to experience harder challenges earlier than others were and overcome them. This is the benefit and the price of being an early adopter.

      You’re also aware that Sunwell doesn’t have a 10-man, right?

      As an added note, when leveling an alt a few weak ago, I was deeply saddened by what a PU$$Y the made Vile Priestess Hexx in the Hinterlands.

      yeah, that pissed me off. The Jinthalor questlines were really awesome and that whole area was hard as hell. It felt great doing the grind on that. Now? We did it 4 levels below the mobs and it was ezmode. I know that it was harder than anything to find even a few people to do the elite quests in the old world, but at the same time a lot of those were really really fun and challenging. In those cases I feel like they should’ve kept them elite because they were optional.

      As to Mag not leading to Kael & Vashj success…people were failing on Kael and Vashj who had Mags down pat. They are simply very difficult fights, and while more complicated fight mechanics might help for that, I don’t see it as being analogous. Heck, people ran Mags quite a bit because it was a quick instance too. I just don’t see it as being a problem. Note that Kael and Vashj are significantly harder than anything in MH/BT as well, so there’s no sense of scaling up either. I guess I don’t see it. I’m happy that I got to do a Mag fight before he got nerfed though.

    16. sid67 says:

      I really don’t get this change. In a way, it’s more a buff to certain crowd control spells like Sap and Polymorph. But in practice, it just rewards the lazy, the inept and the people with bad habits. Something that is easily prevented by people simply learning how to position themselves and mobs should not be made a lot easier. It’s a slap in the face and insult to those of us that take pride in being able to play correctly. Seriously – how hard is it to back away from a CC’d mob? I could give a rip about someone only pushing one button, but taking away such an important aspect to how you position your group simply steals part of the unpredictable flavor that each pull in an instance provides. To me, this is just going to suck a bit more life out of doing Heroics I have seen a gabillion times. Call me crazy, but I actually didn’t mind grinding out Badges of Justice. And why? So that some newb doesn’t have to learn how not to break CC?

    17. Messyah says:

      Yeah, its a 5-man… I must have had raid brain and put 10. Sh*t happens.

      Don’t take it as being a jealousy thing. Its not a matter of I had to work for it and they are getting it handed to them. My concern is when our guild suffers from roster changes, and we are in need to fill some spots. If they continue to make things easier, those applications we get that say, “cleared Kara, cleared Gruul’s, cleared Mags, etc. Very well-gearded and ready to raid” will have far less meaning because the change in the level of difficulty of those accomplishments.

      Really, my biggest complaint/problem I have with the whole thing is that Blizzard is killing the experience of playing WoW so that they can make more money. Sure, it is a business and it is about making money, but at what cost do you draw the line? But who knows, maybe it won’t be so bad.

      Though the Lifebloom nerf is BULLSH*T! :-)

    18. Messyah says:

      Sid – Thank you for putting it in the words I would have liked to. :-)

    19. Kal says:

      But in practice, it just rewards the lazy, the inept and the people with bad habits.

      Or it encourages new playstyles. For example, with this elemental shamans and hunters quickly become really, really desirable in 5-man content. A hunter especially; they can trap then multishot around their trap without any problems. That will reduce the time for clearing, which will make those classes a bit more desirable.

      Mages will have a big advantage as well – being able to sheep someone in the middle of a chaotic pull as a last resort is going to be a godsend some times. A rogue could probably pull it off too with a bit of practice, but it would be slightly harder.

      I don’t see how these things are inherently bad. They are different. Right now, that’ll make things a bit easier. In the future I expect that blizzard will create encounters that specifically require this kind of skill to happen; for example, spawned adds like Crypts would require shackling after the adds appear; this could be a requirement instead of a helpful thing for some groups.

      I guess I don’t see how this takes away positioning of groups. You still need to gather ‘em. You still need to point them away from the rest of the raid. You still need to make sure that you’re in LoS of healers. It takes away one aspect, true. If you like, just don’t play with swipe. Then everyone’s happy.

      Very well-gearded and ready to raid” will have far less meaning because the change in the level of difficulty of those accomplishments.</i.

      These already don’t have much in the way of meaning. A person can easily be taken through Kara or Mags or Gruul without having any skill at all. Or they could be great at DPS but crap at tank, and just have gotten a ton of tanking gear that no one wanted. Heck, for Druids this is especially true given how little loot actually drops post Kara. Don’t use loot as a gauge for quality; use it as at best an entry block.

    20. sid67 says:

      @Kal
      There is no reason why you can’t do those things already by simply moving away from the CC. And even if the tank doesn’t move, hunters and mages both have the ability to easily kite a mob far enough away to safely CC it. It’s not a new playstyle, you just don’t have to work as hard. Arrows and lightning flying all around a sheep is just stupid. Not only does it look silly, but you also generate threat on multiple mobs which is not exactly the type of behavior I want to encourage in my groups.

      That will reduce the time for clearing
      And you prove my point. “It rewards the lazy, the inept and the people with bad habit.” All this does is make the instance that much easier to grind out for people who either develop bad habits and want to top the DPS charts, or they don’t want to pay attention, or they just don’t want to learn how to deal with playing as a group. I attribute this change as a symptom of the lack of grouping for all the old world instances. New players are thrust into Level 70 roles with no idea how to do these things and rather than learn, we change the rules of the game for them.

    21. Kal says:

      rrows and lightning flying all around a sheep is just stupid. Not only does it look silly, but you also generate threat on multiple mobs which is not exactly the type of behavior I want to encourage in my groups.

      Well, it’s important to not look silly. Being a big bear with horns and tattoos making people mad at you while other people hurt them more is clearly the king of decorum. Silliness is just out.

      Generating threat on multiple mobs isn’t bad, it’s efficient. As long as you can keep aggro on all the mobs – which is made much easier with swipe – doing things like multishot and chain lightning make it a lot faster to down mobs. If that’s laziness, so is the concept of tanking. I mean, why not just have everyone shoot whoever they please? They can deal with getting hit in the face. All of this ‘people not getting punched in the face’ thing…that’s just lazy.

      Now, paladins are best at generating AoE threat, but druids aren’t too bad off. Especially for higher-geared content with more AP, swipe should be able to hold 3 mobs for AoE damage. 4 might be tough, you’d likely have to do a bit more juggling and/or mouseover deals, but it should still be doable. Again, that’s not a lack of skill or laziness – that’s doing the best job you can with being a tank. It’s made easier if you can CC in the middle of the pile without any problem, but the big improvement is that other classes can now look silly by shooting into a crowd and not worrying about it so much.

      And you prove my point. “It rewards the lazy, the inept and the people with bad habit.”
      How is reducing the time for clearing for the lazy? It’s lazy to want to get through trash you’ve done 100 times a bit faster? People who are new are going to have to go just as slow as before. I don’t know about you, but I like doing runs as quickly as possible while doing them right. If that makes me lazy, so be it.

      You’ve been given a new tool. Other players have been too. Instead of complaining that things aren’t the way they were, adapt. Overcome. Learn to use your new tool, and learn to use how other people can use theirs.

    22. Elduche says:

      Bear tanking now takes absolutely no skill now…..yay….
      How about giving us something we want….Like a cat dps boost that would be nice.
      Bear from already is simple as heck to tank with. Swipe was never a problem… Move 4 steps to the left Oo there we go your not hitting the sheep anymore.. wow took some skill there.

    23. Ahmen says:

      Oh think of all the sheep that shall be saved! As a directionally challenged bear this makes me happy. ^^

    24. Graham says:

      Logan: “The problem with the 2.4 badge loot is that they’re using the same type of badges for the newer, much better gear.”

      Not entirely… all the new gear also needs Sunmotes as well (according to wowhead), which I suspect is going to require at least running the new 5-man on heroic.

      And yes, it is a shame that newer players can bypass some of the challenges, but I’m pretty certain that our guild won’t be doing to much of that anyhow. We’re intelligent folk, and we know that we “Are NOT Prepared!”

      Sorry, I couldn’t resist that.

      And you’re right on the money about some of the old world content that gets ignored. For a long time I was in a small non-raiding guild (before 20-man instances were available, even), and I ran Scholo and Strat pretty much to death, and still enjoyed them. I also miss instances like Dire Maul, and Maraudon, which were very rarely run even before TBC was released.

      Once I started raiding though, Molten Core got boring very quickly, quite honestly, and my guild didn’t manage any significant progress in BWL and AQ before expansion time. ZG was a ton of fun though, and the newer Zul’Aman is essentially Zul’Gurub all over again, but better.

      And hey, they’re apparently retuning Naxx for the next expansion, and I for one can’t wait to see that. From everything else I’ve seen and read, it seems like it would have been a fun raid.

      We are looking at this from two very different angles though. As your views are shaped by being a newer player who started after the expansion, I’m naturally looking at things from the viewpoint of an established player who is now playing catch-up with an alt. The badge rewards and attunement removals are something of a blessing for me, and anyone else who’s “been there before”.

      I *still* think the AoE not breaking CC is BS though.

    25. Logan says:

      I thought that only the new patterns in 2.4 required sunmotes. The badge gear also requires these items? That changes things a bit, for the better IMO.

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