You would think, after the post I JUST did about running Kara for 6 hours Saturday night on Windburn and Windshadow, that I would be done with freaking Karazhan for a while.

Yeah, surprise!

I got a whisper Sunday evening, around 9ish, from our friends Unseen and Camila.

Yes, as I said in my earlier post, they had done an all guildie run the same time we were doing ours.

Now, we planned out run for 7 PM, and I am proud to say that we had 10 folks in the raid and ready to pull at 7:07.

Thank you very much, professional and prepared friends. I love you.

I know that as we were finishing Prince, they had just finished Shade of Aran. So I assumed they started a little later.

Well, it turns out they didn’t quite finish what they planned, with Illhoof, Prince, and the two dragons still to go for night two.

And Camila was asking if I had any characters unsaved, they wanted to down Prince.

Well, yes I do. I told him I had my Beastmaster Hunter that was unsaved, and nothing else. And I told him I was sorry I couldn’t help them out.

He told me he needed DPS, and asked me if my hunter was Kara geared.

Now, maybe he MEANT Kara geared the way I have totally munchkined my Druid and Shadow Priest.

I took it to mean, was my Hunter as prepared to perform his role as a Hunter should be inside Kara, and I said yes.

And he is. Technically.

I have Misdirect macros, Focus and Aggro and pull macros, and I have gemmed out gear and the rest. And I have a planned out shot rotation and the best gun and ammo I could get without raiding.

BUT… Windburn is my farming character, because no one really needs more DPS on runs, compared to Druids and Priests.

And Windburn is, literally, in all blues, one green, and a pair of epic gloves. That’s it.

But I followed BRK’s gearing up for Kara article and worked hard to get at least reasonable for 5 mans and be Kara ready… to go in for Attumen and work my way up.

So Windburn’s first introduction to Karazhan was Prince. Damnit. No pressure, right?

So I did the Misdirect pull to camila the tank, and sent my pet on in, and forgot to turn Growl off for about 30 seconds (damn noob), and took my time getting my ass up on that pole so Infernals won’t hit me.

And then I finally started whacking away.

Our first attempt, we got Prince down to 2%. I realized in the middle that;

  • I had no buff food. (Except Kibler’s Bits)
  • I had no scrolls.
  • I had no pots.. at all.
  • I still had my Riding Crop equipped instead of my Bladefists’ Breath. 

Soo… God, I suck, right? BRK is never gonna talk to me again. And in all blues and a green. Just… I’m a waste of a slot, right?

Well, I asked if I could hearth and get a summon back so I could get the neglected stuffs. And I scurried off, tail between my legs, hoping to do better on try two.

I grabbed a Healing Potion Injector, some Scrolls of Protection and Agility, some Hit Rating food, and realized I didn’t have any Major Agility pots… but heck with it, they are waiting on me. And it’s not like I’m not going to suck anyway, pots or no pots.

I get a summon back, and we get set for try two.

And this time I take even longer getting my ass back up on that pole near the door, where the Infernals can’t zap ranged. Wulfa, seriously.. it’s not just you, I was trying and trying and TRYING to get on that thing for 30 seconds.

But I DPS my heart out with my shot rotations, and Kill Commands, and Rapid Shots, and Trinkets as soon as they are off cooldown, and Mending Pet.

In the group are our good friends Camila on his Prot paladin, and Unseenfiend on Camila’s healing Paladin alt Muralimohan. They are both kick ass, ran with them plenty of times before.

However… and keep in mind that the Hunter survived but I didn’t… this is what the Recount looked like after Prince went down;

windstar.jpg

That other Hunter, Rannan? Almost all epics, but specced with Trueshot Aura.

And I out DPSed the Warlock. Don’t know what that means about him, it’s the hunter that tripped me out.

I don’t care how good I think I am as a player, there is no way I should out DPS a Warlock and an all epicced out Hunter on a straight ranged DPS fight with my gear.

Unless… reading Big Red Kitty, working on my shot rotations, understanding how my spec is supposed to work, and trying my best actually does trump a better geared player with an inferior spec?

Inferior?

Well, I call out DPSing an all epicced out 0/40/21 Marksman Hunter a sign that SOMETHING is wrong, either with the player or the spec.

I did a compare on WoW Heroes between Rannan and Windstar. You go ahead and do the same, and tell me that something isn’t seriously wrong there.

I can’t help but feel sorry for Camila and Unseen. They are two great people, but the folks they got on that pug… ugh. NOT poised for success.

19 Responses to “And then the flip side of Kara PUGs”
  1. Verolia says:

    At least your alts can all compete for top DPS spot in Kara. Though a little tid bit of advice, if you happen to top the Warlock on DPS while playing your Shadow Priest, make sure they never let them live that down. My Shadow Damage > your shadow damage

    Grats though, and at least it was turning out great!

  2. Kevin says:

    Marksman is not a real raiding spec and BM is. So it’s not surprising you out dps’ed him. And it’s also quite possible he has never read about his class. Hunter is a hard class to play well.

  3. Stobnor says:

    On a related, but less epic note…

    On Saturday night, I was asked by a friend to come to Heroic Helfire Ramps – it was the Daily Heroic, so a nice badge run. So I joined their party…

    Me (Feral Druid), Holy Priest (my pal), Mage (guildmate of Priest), Fury Warrior and Hunter. Warrior and Hunter were either Friends of Friends or from LFG.

    One of the first comments the Hunter made in Pary chat was “Why is the Druid tanking – they suck at tanking – can the Warrior not Tank?”

    My first comment was “Kick Hunter, he’s annoyed me”, or words to that effect…

    After a little while, I realised by Mr Hunter didn’t like Druids Tanking – he liked to hit the “first kill” mob before me… And didn’t seem to be able to chain trap. Actually, didn’t seem to be able to trap – his first one often broke… Leading either to him expiring early or me running about to pick up his mob at the same time as my 2 or 3 (or 4 for the one pull), or both…

    I resorted to explaining Threat Generation (with the aid of the others) and Rage to him (as well as Line of Sight, Feral Fairy Fire & Hurricane pulls) and marking one of the Dogs for him to trap. He did get better then…

    My Priest pal then noticed on the DPS meter… I was tanking and out DPSing him.

    Eeek…

    Then on Sunday, a different friend asked me to come and fill a DPS slot on Heroic Ramps. That was a completely different PuG.

    This group was me (Feral Kitty), Fire Mage (my friend), Pally Tank, Holy Priest and a Rogue.

    And the Pally Tank doesn’t like CC. Not just “complains about it”, but “doesn’t use it”. The Mage sheeped ONCE in the whole Instance. And he “lol”ed when I offered to OT if he wanted on any pulls… And it was such fast fun – no records broken, but from zone in to portal out it was 53 minutes.

    So now I’m awed by Pally Tanking – and am looking forward to the next /w from my mage friend asking me to come DPS…

    Have fun,

    Stobs

  4. Loronar says:

    It is definitely possible for Marksmanship hunters to out-DPS Beast Mastery hunters. I’ve done it multiple times against BM of approximately equivalent gear. From looking at Rannan’s Armory, it appears that he’s specced and geared for doing both PvP and PvE. Indicative signs: 3-piece Gladiator armor, stamina enchants over the standard hunter gear enchants, talents in Improved Stings and Deflection, and incorrect weapon enchants. If he was raiding with this spec and gear, that’s the problem.

    A PvE Marksmanship hunter should be able to easily achieve an attack power of at least 200 higher than Beast Mastery hunters. At epic-gear levels, hovering around or higher than 2000 RAP should not be difficult. However, Rannan only has 1400 RAP because he is using PvP gear. you can also tell his Agility is very little compared to his Stamina. It is also necessary for PvE Marksmen to put talents into Ranged Weapon Specialization, which he clearly did not.

    Congratulations on the superb performance in Karazhan! I guess my bottom line is, when comparing to a Marksmanship hunter, it’s necessary to look at why the DPS difference may occur. Because we are normally very PvP-viable, people fall into the idea that they can do decent in PvE in PvP spec and gear.

  5. bigbearbutt says:

    See, now that would seem to me to be a reasonable reason why I had higher DPS. That he was specced for and optimized for PvP, and came on the run to help out.

    That would make a great deal of sense to me, and would reassure me that the BM spec is very good for PvE, which is what I would be doing.

    On the other hand… I think that this is also an interesting way to point out that, just because your character might not be all ‘purpled’ out is no reason to think you can’t provide a valuable addition to the raid.

    I would have thought my Hunter was just not going to be of much use on the rnu, but in the end I felt I was more of a ‘a poor hunter is better than an empty slot’ choice, and determined to try to help my best.

    But because my role was NOT to be uncrushable, or uncrittable, or to have 16k+ health, or to have +1300 minimum plus healing, but instead was to provide massive quantities of sustained ranged DPS, then even if my quantity was not massive, it was still a definite plus to the raid.

    I had a good time, and I’m very glad I was able to help Cam and Unseen down Prince.

    And I am very glad that I am not telling you a story of how my scrub hunter got the SunFury Bow of the Phoenix on his first run in Kara. I figure, law of averages, if I dno’t see it on that run, higher chance Wulfa or Rysteranch would get it another run.

  6. Gibbie says:

    Hunter is my main, its somewhat tough to play at a higher level. Soloing by myself i usually do…800 or 1000 dps. Because of the pet threat issue, mainly, you are constantly throttling. In raids, its higher, maybe 1400 dps on a prince encounter. Prince is by and large our true ‘best case’ scenario, you aren’t doing anything except stand there and pew pew. We lose a ton of dps when we manuever. But yeah consumables do make a difference, not sure how much of a difference but somewhat.

    Now i run kara with a resto druid, its a bit harder to play with tank/raid
    awareness, heals, mob awareness. Its def. funner though, playing hunter gets old pretty quick but I still like to do 25 mans with it, there’s enough going on there to keep me busy. I encourage people who like to raid to try a bunch of different roles, its really quite different.

  7. Pike says:

    It’s true, I have run with PvP geared Marksman hunters and the DPS they do to mine as a PvE geared Beast Master is quite minimal.

    In all honesty I personally have never been out-DPS’d by any Marksman hunter, even those that out-gear me, but those that are geared for PvE do make the gap much smaller.

    Good Survival hunters though, lemme tell ya, they can give you a run for your DPS money.

  8. Exanimo says:

    Btw.. isn’t standing on that little pole an exploit?

  9. Pike says:

    also I meant… compared to mine* in the first paragraph there >.>

  10. bigbearbutt says:

    Exanimo, I gotta say… if it’s an expoit in the mind of Blizzard… then I didn’t get the memo.

    Although I thank you and other nice folks that have emailed in to warn me that they have ehard it’s an exploit.

    I’m not going to worry about it too much. If it bothers them, they can patch it so either you aren’t immune to Infernal AOE when you’re on the pole, or make it so you can’t get on the pole. They removed the dead zones already, so why not?

    Heck, while they’re at it, why not remove the notch in the wall by the door that the melee DPS can use to run into? Just patch it if ya don’t like it… and count on players finding another way to win.

    Basically, I am not too concerned about what Blizzard may QQ about, when the players are using the terrain to their advantage to succeed.

    What, you think in a real fight everyone gets together in a big open field and slugs it out? Get real.

    Blizzard designed and coded the entire enounter. If they want their fights to only be possible to be successfully completed in one pre-scripted format, they need to tighten up their encounter design in my opinion, not tell someone somewhere that, by improvising, experimenting and trying to figure out how the group can complete the boss fight in the safest, smoothest way possible, they are cheating.

    If that is the case, then why not tell us that trying to figure out strategies for raid bosses is an exploit? You give a player a challenge, and then cry because they find a method that works successfully… why not close down the Bosskillers website?

    I know, I know… but I just get tired of people worrying about what Blizz’s opinion of things in encounters are, and whether big bad Blizz is gonna get upset. If Blizzard doesn’t like it, let them fix it, not penalize players for being sneaky.

    I used to read stories of players banned by Blizzard for ‘exploits’ concerning exploring the world. You’re a player, you get curious about neat areas you see, you try to find a way to reach them. No one told YOU that just because you can see it and it looks neat, doesn’t mean you should be allowed to get there.

    Then you work hard to explore the game world using Parachute Capes and other methods Blizz designed in, to reach areas such as the Dwarven Flight Airport in the mountains above Ironforge that you fly over on the griffon when heading for Menethil Harbor. And then you tell other people, “Look what I did! isn’t that cool?”

    And you get banned. Way to reward ingenuity and a love of your game.

    I just don’t believe in blaming players for finding ways to be sneaky, to see what you didn’t think could be achieved, or by finding a way to win that you didn’t plan on.

    When I GM a role playing game, and I figure out 8 to 10 ways the players could try and accomplish a goal, if they find a way that I never imagined… I don’t get pissy and ban them from my game, I reward them with bonus XP for imaginative gameplay. I salute their ingenuity.

    Why be boring and stifle creativity? If you don’t like it, patch it out of existence.

  11. Artorin says:

    When I first started doing kara way back in the day the guild I was in didn’t use any of the current techniques. Probably because no one knew about it at the time. We would set up and tank prince in the far corner of the room and ranged dps would move in a group out of infernal drops. It was hairy and very challenging and fun.

    I bring this up because the other night I was doing Kara in the guild I’ve been in for a while (first one disbanded) and we allways use the standing under the door way thingy. Well of course we had a bad infernal drop… So naturally I moved outside to an area where I could still heal the tank but wasn’t getting killed… I was the only ranged who did so.

    On vent the tank was flipping out and kept trying to get closer to the door which meant the melee dps couldn’t do anything without standing in a corner. I healed the crap out of the tank to keep him up much more then I should of had to heal a tier 5 armor tank. “I have to move closer to the door so I can get healed I’m out of range” he would say. I sat there in vent over and over telling him dude I’m 35 yards out in the middle of room with no infernals HEALING YOU!

    I think people get set into one mode when it comes to instances and when it comes to something different they just freeze. For me that encounter was allways about movement. When tanking or dps or healing its watching for infernal drops and re positioning to keep going.

    I’m not saying I did it the hard way and it is better… by all means I prefer the easy way… but if an infernal drops in a bad spot can you atleast learn how to move???

  12. bigbearbutt says:

    Personally, I would prefer your way of Prince, a moving fight requiring readjusting positions based on Infernals instead of the static way.

    If I get a ten man team that is used to working together, I intend to try it and have fun.

    Why don’t I now? Generally, we still have at least 3 to 5 people in the raid every time that haven’t played with the others before, and we tackle Prince after 5 and a half hours of slogging.

    What I would like, would be to go back to two evening clears, a 2 hour clear to Curator, and then a second night follow up. Break it up, make it easier.

  13. kapolani says:

    If you’re a bm specced hunter, know what shot rotations are, know how to keep your mana rolling, you should NEVER EVER get out dps’ed by anyone else – except other bm hunters.

    (of course this depends on what the fight is)

    It’s just the way the mechanics work.

    Sure, the MM hunter may have bigger crits, but you’re getting more shots(specials) in compared to the MM guy.

    That’s where the damage comes from.

    I haven’t been outdps’ed by anyone in a long time. The only time i’m not tops is when we have some T6 rogues coming along for fun.

  14. Artorin says:

    Ya breaking it up into 2 nights can be nice it certainly makes it less stressfull. You may even find enough time to clear the trash after opera for all the gold they drop :P

    We used to clear them for that reason alone… now everyone just runs out and around the other side saving maybe 5 minutes…

  15. Felkan says:

    In a way I think this is sort of sad. Why does Blizzard require us to read a zillion blogs, build spreadsheets, gear lists, macros and in-game addons just be competitive?

    FWIW, GG Bear. I brought my first toon (a hunter) out for the first time in months to run a 5-man. I sucked. I use to know what I was doing, but playing my Druid for so long I seem to have forgotten. I put him away and decided to beef up my Kitty DPS set instead. ;)

  16. Stale says:

    MM = Noob for Raiding… Its pretty much the PVP spec for hunters now.

  17. Gilthoniel says:

    I know someone probably already said it (didn’t read comments), but BM really is that much better. As i believe BRK has said, 20% increase to speed = 20% increase to dps

  18. Camila says:

    Yeah, your hunter rocked :) I don’t think i’ve seen you play a toon you didn’t do awesome with though. You definitely made my day helping me tank prince successfully for the first time :-D

  19. Lypi says:

    I’m absolutely floored by the DPS in that raid. You were the only one in the appropriate range.

    It’s my belief that any PVE specced and geared DPS toon can pump out 500 DPS BEFORE they hit Kara/badge gear. And once fully geared from Kara, a hunter should be <1k DPS. That rogue should just be slitting his wrists, seriously. I’ve got a 70 feral druid (have played moonkin also), priest (holy but have played shadow), hunter, shaman (played both enhancement and elemental), and ALL have been able to top 500 DPS before entering kara.

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