Last night, we did a little Sidhe Devils run into ZA for fun and giggles. Nalorakk went down, and we took our first ever guild shot at Akil’zon.
Umm, no… Denied!
We took two tries at it, and each time we did, in my opinion, pretty damn good, especially since for the majority of people there it was the first time they had ever seen old stinky eagle-head.
The first try, we got him down to about 35%, and the second try we got him to the 20% marker. After that, the Guantlet all respawned, and we decided to call it for the night, since we’d really only budgeted enough time for Nalorakk in the first place. We had some necessary AFK issues, and Doodlebug had signed up and was MIA because of, oh, a little thing like massive tornados swirling around his home, so we didn’t kick off right away anyway.
On the one hand, it was awesome that our first shot at him, we damn near did it. On the other hand, it is heartbreaking that we got that close, and failed to seal the deal.
The second time, we had his ass, too. So what happened?
Raid Leader went into brain freeze.
I knew who we had, and what to do, but my poor aching brain simply locked up.
In this particular case, one of our healers, the Shaman Teysa, went down from those damn birds, and didn’t have a self-rez ready.
Now, Nasirah the Druid was doing heals, and had a battle rez ready. So, a no-brainer to say “Nas, could you rez Teysa please?”, right?
Ahhh, but I was also tanking Akil’zon… and I was monitoring the timer bar for Electrical Storm, standing ready to call out when the bar hit ten seconds to have everyone collapse on me. And I was rotating my view around to try and keep an eye on the birds. And watching Health and Mana to ask for special heals on party or innervates, since the birds can be a true pain in the keister.
So what happened?
Teysa went down, and I looked at the group composition, trying to cut through the fog in my head, because I knew I needed to say something, what was that… and my brain locked on the concept of asking for a battle rez… and as Nas asked if she should rez Teysa, and I gratefully said, “Yes”, I realised that while I was vapor locked I’d let my concentration on the timer bar slip for 5 seconds, and I called out hastily for everyone to collapse, but it was too late.
Boom. Raid blowed up.
Now, everyone makes mistakes sometimes. Sadly, on Akil’zon, all you need to do is screw up on Electrical Storm once and you’re toast.
The mistakes that I hate are the ones that were entirely avoidable. In this case, I knew I was sick and having problems concentrating (especially with Alex sitting next to me and watching, and commenting quite cutely on all the pretty lights), so I should have delegated the RL position, or at least assigned parts of what I was doing off to more capable people. I try not to micro-manage, but it’s hard when you are one of the few people to have seen the fight before in the group.
Lately, I’ve been having fun in Kara simply sitting back and asking someone else to explain a fight… and finding out that most everyone at this point seems perfectly capable of leading a raid. Maybe next time I’ll ask Shrinnpoof to raid lead Kara. She seemes on top of things just fine. Rotate everyone through it!
But thinking about what was going on last night in particular, made me contrast last night’s RL coordination with other experiences I’ve had.
I’ve now done Raid Leader stuffs as a Healer before BC, and much more recently as a Shadow Priest caster, as a Feral Druid tank, a Feral Druid DPS, and as a Hunter.
And each position, by the nature of the class, has an entirely different feel when playing in a Raid, and when coordinating Raid activities.
A Raid Leader can certainly be any class, but in my experience to date, I’ve found that there are certain classes that are easier for me to play WHILE being RL than others.
First, I’ve found it’s easier overall to remain aware of the flow of the battle and everyone’s participation in it, if I am in a ranged position rather than melee. It’s a simple matter of fields of view. I can see what is happening, where mobs are breaking, where adds may be coming from, and who may be in trouble or standing idle if I’m leading from behind.
Leading from behind, basically, gives you a better chance of seeing issues fast, and having a chance to respond to them and communicate changes in plan on the fly to respond to them quickly.
You can certainly RL from the melee or tank position, but to do so requires you to first, be able to implicitly trust that everyone knows their role in the raid for each battle, and know that they do not need any special instructions if shit happens, since you can’t see most of the others through the big monster in front of you no matter how much you turn the camers, and it also requires you to be dextrous on moving your camera perspective so you can keep an eye on those things you can.
I prefer the fun of being RL as tank or melee, simply beacuse when I have done so with our team, it’s awesome when you know that everyone is on the ball and you need have no worries that the stuff behind you is well in hand.
When you have people on the run that are brand new to the raid, though, it’s much better for my mental health to be in a position to see how they are doing, and be able to offer suggestions on the fly.
So thinking about the RL position as a ranged player, I’ve found I prefer to do it as a Shadow Priest instead of a Hunter.
Why?
Because as a Hunter, I require more concentration on my playing for physical repositioning for trap placement, watching for early breaks, Distracting Shot management, pet control, shot control, Feign Death, etc.
Playing a Hunter simply requires more concentration than playing a Shadow Priest, because the Shadow Priest has no active pet, the Shackle does not require me to reposition to place, and I can refresh the Shackle at will without having to move afterwards. I can obtain an excellent field of view on the battle, and remain there for the most part, except in emergencies.
The less time I have to spend running around to manage traps, the easier it is for me to watch the entire raid as a whole. Health and Mana bars for Innervate requests, Threat on Omen, damage phases and specials on bosses, kill target sequences, etc.
It’s just kind of funny. I was asked why I switch out my Hunter for my Priest when we do Moroes, since it takes more skill for a Hunter to chain trap adds during Moroes, and therefore it is more fun. Right?
And the answer is very simple. I’m not there to show off my skill at playing, I’m there to lead the raid and make sure communication is smooth and we do well, and I personally find it easier to lead the raid and DPS and control an add on that fight by using Shackle, so I don’t have to run around as much.
It makes me wonder… what classes do you folks play as Raid Leader, and do you find that your ability to coordinate and communicate is better when playing one instead of another. Are there more folks out there that RL as tanks and melee, or as casters? And do you ever find yourself choosing a class to play so as to better leave you with time free to lead the raid?
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October 9th, 2008 at 6:15 am
I think one good class for raid leading is a healer. I’ve done it in kara as resto shaman and my first raid leader was a holy paladin. I had a RL that was main tank and GM at the same time. Complete utter mess (not that it’s impossible but this guy couldn’t handle everything). I’ve also had a very good enhancement shaman raid leading. He knew a LOT of the rest of the classes, he could help organize healing on healing channel, had perfect understanding with the tank and knew always what to do at the right moment. I’m talking about sunwell on this guy. In my opinion some fights require various people to speak up and guide the rest on special tasks. For example on Brutallus we mostly have our two tanks speaking so we healers know when they taunt and the boss turns, and the raid leader takes the rest of the tasks, like bloodlusts or combat res. I think it depends a lot on the person and how comfortable he is with the role he has on the fight.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:21 am
I never rely on the timers for that electrical storm. I always turn all my sounds but Ambient off, and max ambient so its nice and clear and easily heard. You’ll hear the storm coming. When I lead that kill, I repeat those directions a few times, since DBM timers are not always perfect and it’s led to some nasty wipes.
So far I only have a shadow priest and druid to 70, and I just led a Magtheridon kill with the shadow priest. Definitely easier to lead when you’re not tanking or healing, I think.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:33 am
Agreed with Lheaf’s comment about sounds…we’ve been doing it that way since we started downing him, and it is much more reliable than the timers.
I prefer Raid Leading as a Healer, even though there are often some more pressing concerns in a hectic fight, at least I am watching *everything*. I know if we have more than one healer down, if we’re light dps, who should be rezzed, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I keep an eye on all that stuff no matter what I am doing in the raid, but it’s easier as a healer. Maybe that’s just because that’s what I’m used to, ever since I leveled a priest to heal in MC pre-BC.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:34 am
Actually Lheaf, that’s exactly what happened on our first run.
I use BigWigs, and was watching the timers, and we were kicking ass on our very first shot, and then Blusummers the Mage was the focus of the Electrical Storm, and he Ice Blocked out of it, and at that very second my Electrical Storm timer vanished. Just gone.
That’s right, I’m blaming it on Blu! Wasn’t me, man. Nuh uh!
In the confusion of asking around to see if anyone else had a timer still active, on Deadly Boss Mods or whatever, in the vain hope it was just me, the next Electrical Storm came rolling in and wiped us.
I stuck to the timer on the second run simply because I liked being able to call out exactly at 10 seconds remaining to give folks enough time to run in, and I was trying to fine tune exactly when to call ‘em in to minimize the length of time we had to suffer the chain lightning when all bunched up.
In the future, screw the timer bar, I’m going with the sound effects. You’re dead on. Much better to use a relaible method of anticipation.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:37 am
I find that as an offtank, especially in a 25 man raid you are in a good position to Raid Lead. You have the luxury of being able to look around and keep an eye on things.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Depends on your approach of raid leading. You have the type of raid leader that wants/needs to control the entire fight. He needs to keep an eye on who’s got a combat res ready. He needs to call out every time someone has to move. He needs to shout “use x resist pots now/innervate player y/phase z incoming remember this this and that”… The type of raid leading that can drive you mad after you’ve wiped even only 3-4 times on the same fight because “just how often do you need to repeat the same stuff over and over again”. For this you *need* a ranged class or a healer as you’ll never be able to overview the entire fight and the silly escapades your raiders get up to and still do your job adequately at the same time. And even then healers are less suited than ranged dps as they’ll be staring at health bars more often than not.
Then there’s the raid leader that knows he can trust his entire raid group to know about the fights they’re doing, even new ones. This raid leader can be anyone - from a healer to a rogue to even the MT. Actually MTs make great raid leaders - they know what ’s going on in the raid (hp/mana wise) and keep up a decent pace on trash. Before boss fights you sort out stuff like heroisms/bloodlust, when to combat/self res (i.e. don’t res during air phases at felmyst) and then you simply pull. You trust your raid to move in when necessary, move away from fire/gas/orbs/spikes/…
Guess it all depends on how much you (can) trust your raiders. Just keep in mind that the former type of raid leader will suffer burn out at some point, and quite often more sooner than you’d think. Don’t go there - it’s not a fun place.
October 9th, 2008 at 6:42 am
EU-Sunstrider PvP Server - The High Order Guild
Since our guild is mostly oveargeared for kara and most have done it more than 30 times each, it’s quite easy for any of the members to lead, but it just seems easier for the tank to do it. Of course you miss a couple of things, but that’s what the rest of the guildies are there for. You’re building aggro on the boss and if something goes wrong you can just leave it on auto-attack and take 5 seconds to explain the problem.
OFC anyone can lead from any position, but i’ve seen that most people, even in Kara PUGs, tend to let the tanks do it.
Cheers
October 9th, 2008 at 7:00 am
I certainly find it easier to lead and co-ordinate fights when playing my rogue than when tanking on my druid. On fights like Moroes or Wizard of Oz where adds need taking down correctly and calling when it’ll happen is smoother than when I’m having to tank a boss and all I can see is their knees.
I do like the Magic Targets addon for when I’m raid leading (or even group leading) as it provides easily viewable status on all the mobs currently being targeted or crowd controlled and who’s targeting what. Quite handy for checking that all the cc’ers have their correct target and that everyone is dpsing the mobs in the correct order.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:35 am
Hmm for me it is hard not to lead when playing as a tank. Whether on my druid or pally I think its kind of that protector instinct of watching the group. It is alot eaiser for me to watch the raid and timers as a tank. Probably after that would be ranged dps since you have that laid back view but I also suffer from ADD and can lose focus on things like healer mana and tank health. I’m usually focused on watching the boss health drop and where I am. Finally as a healer I find it very difficult to lead since I’m so focused on health bars it is really hard for me to watch what everyone else is doing. I’ve really only lead raids on my druid but have done it as tank, ranged dps, and healer.
October 9th, 2008 at 7:47 am
I’ve led raids as both my Hunter and from the front-lines tanking on my Druid. Both have their merits.
I enjoy RL on my Hunter for the same reasons you mention above - better visibility of the field of battle, greater mobility, which leads to more informed snap decisions when they have to happen.
I enjoy RL on my Druid because it helps me set the pace. My guild has issues, on occasion (stemming from our first tenuous steps into Kara) with wanting each pull, trash included, to be ‘perfect’. Everyone up, everyone potioned and buffed, everyone at full mana - you get the picture. Now that we’ve been doing Kara for some time, and know that we can effectively 8-man it, we’re only just now starting to push a bit faster. As a tank, I can set the pace and keep people moving so that we can get in those one or two extra bosses per night.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:04 am
AC’s RL used ta also be the main tank, but she switched from protection ta fury when the guild moved inta the 25s. Were just too much ta manage, otherwise.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:05 am
Dang Crash, I’ve never heard of Magic Targets before. That sounds pretty cool… I’ll have to check that out right away!
October 9th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Rats, from what I’ve heard she switched to Fury so she could finally do enough damage she could get through that thick skull of yours!
October 9th, 2008 at 8:30 am
If you’ve never run it with just sound effects before, use the timer bar -and- the sound effects. The sound of rain comes pretty close to 10-8 seconds before the storm hits. I’ve noticed with my sound up the rain is still pretty soft, but definitely there when you know what to listen to.
Here’s a disgusting tip on the gauntlet that my husband’s guild uses. (this requires a hunter)
Have the raid cluster at the bottom of the cliff. You know, you run down from the gates, then hang a left and there’s a gigantic cliff in your face so you go left again and there’s the sentry so you swing hard right then start up the road with the gauntlet. Well, cluster at the bottom of the cliff, in the opposite direction of the sentry, so in the right-ish side of the cliff (I should really take screenshots of this)
Ok, so everyone’s at the bottom of the cliff. Have the hunter use Eagle Eye on a tree up above. He might have to try a couple of times, and make sure his view distance is at maximum. What he needs to do is get a visual on the Tempest. Once he’s got the tempest selected have the rest of the raid target it off of his target. Once the raid is all targeted on the tempest the hunter needs to tell his pet to attack. Poor little kamikaze kitty will scale the vertical cliff and run to the tempest, once the tempest is attacked have the hunter set his pet to ‘follow’ and the pet will run back with tempest in tow. The pet will most likely die, but the tempest should reach attack range in time.
Then, just kill the tempest and whatever other mobs came along for the ride (usually one or two extra) and then, wham bam thank you ma’am the sentry is de-spawned and you can take the regular mobs at your leisure!
Needless to say, when I stood there and watched Mr Tigerfeet do this with his guild I was aghast, horrified, and felt slightly dirty. But it worked, it worked frighteningly beautifully.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:30 am
I think you could probably RL as anything but you really need to be comfortable enough with that class to be able to run on Auto-Pilot. You mentioned that it was hard to Raid Lead as a Hunter. My Hunter is my “main”. Most of my class-related responsibilities in a Raid just dont take that much concentration. I am less comfortable with my Druid and I find it harder to lead a Raid with her.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Something interesting I’ve found about leading requires the fact that I always play with my fiancee in the same room. She is a tank and I am a caster. Thus, we get the benefit of both worlds. We can yell at each other in the room, and then I usually relay things to the group or things to her. I know it is often far easier to have a single RL, but I wonder if the benefits of having a RL duo have been explored? In any case, it would end up being one person doing the talking, which wasn’t a problem when we started playing because we only had one mic :-).
October 9th, 2008 at 8:51 am
I started RL in WoW with my hunter, it was good for field of view but eventually in fights like moroes where I was constantly misdirecting, running adds around, trapping, etc.. it became cumbersome to also watch everything else that was happening.
From my wife’s healer perspective, especially someone that uses something like GRID for full raid healing, I notice her on a constant eagle eye on it which does not leave room for looking around the rest of the screen to coordinate efforts.
A short time later when I started tanking as a druid, I felt I found my place in control of RL. I could load my screen with key information and still control what I was doing while observing everything. Sure its just not click a button, there are many movements involved but I had a lot more time to watch timers, raid health/mana, and coordinate everything on vent.
One key piece however that I learned right away is when you are tanking/melee your field of vision is just not the same as a ranged. No, it would never do, I needed to know what was happening behind me. I could easily flip the camera but it was still tough to catch every angle in fights with multiple mobs. I did find a solution to the problem which has made life a LOT easier! Simply type this command in game and it will extend your camera distance; making it oh so much easier to keep the field of view of the entire fight within the same window. It takes some getting used to but once mastered it can really help on watching what is going on: /script SetCVar(”cameraDistanceMax”,50)
October 9th, 2008 at 8:56 am
It makes me wonder… what classes do you folks play as Raid Leader, and do you find that your ability to coordinate and communicate is better when playing one instead of another. Are there more folks out there that RL as tanks and melee, or as casters? And do you ever find yourself choosing a class to play so as to better leave you with time free to lead the raid?
As a raid leader, 99% of the time, I am on my Holy Priest as a main healer (some times solo healer in Kara). I find that it does allow me to have a lot better view from a healer standpoint, I can easily manage the healing assignments, direct cc and/or misdirections. I have dps toons and a tank as well, but really for me, I can lead much better form a healer standpoint.
As a tank I fought it quite difficult to do this, especially on fights like nightbane where your view is nothing but bone claws in your face.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:01 am
“”Then, just kill the tempest and whatever other mobs came along for the ride (usually one or two extra) and then, wham bam thank you ma’am the sentry is de-spawned and you can take the regular mobs at your leisure!”"
Yeah, this method works, and I too really dislike it. However, putting it to a raid vote, this is the way we do it until Blizzard fixes it, if they bother at this point.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:02 am
It made me a little sad to read your remark implying that the hunters who posted about trapping during Moroes do it to show off. Our hunters (yes including me) are trying to ease the burden on our priests, not to showcase our l33t trapping skillz. We can CC, but we *can’t* heal, and there’s nothing worse than having our shackler reduced to a puddle of goo because he is called on to emergency heal seconds before his shackle timer is up. If running your priest in Moroes works better for you than your hunter, that’s great, but some of us do play our hunter there to help the group, not to grandstand
October 9th, 2008 at 9:25 am
I’m a raid leader, for a small guild, we’re 4/6 in ZA and haven’t really ventured into 25 man content much. We run well, we’re a solid group and we have a lot of fun together.
I find it much easier to call for adjustments when I’m dpsing on my warlock. When I’m tanking, I’m hitting 8 different buttons and worried more about watching everyone’s threat and my health & rage than any raid adjustments that need to be made. I try to divvy that job out to someone else.
Oh, and learn the sound trick on Akilzon, it works SO much better than timers.
-Abs
October 9th, 2008 at 10:06 am
I have lead raids from 3 different perspectives.
Ranged DPS: I find that RL on my Mage is the easiest to accomplish, I can openly look around at whatever I need to. All I really do is click 1-3 buttons during the entire fight for the most part, and that gives me plenty of time to look at the threat meter, everyones health, and whatever else is going on (Rain of Fire, etc.).
Healer: RL on my resto Druid is moderately easy, I am ranged so can see everything if need be… however I need to be careful not to stop watching health bars for more than a second or two. After you RL as a healer for a while though, you start to get the hang of it, and it becomes a bit easier to be watching health bars AND everything else, but I still do find it easier to RL as Ranged DPS.
Tank: I find that when I was tanking on my Druid and RL, it was the hardest of the three. Many times I am stuck in a corner, or against a wall and can’t see anything but my ‘big bear butt’ and the (generally) 10 story tall boss in front of me. Now I can watch health bars relatively easy, but honestly, I really shouldn’t have to, my healers should be completely concentrated on that, I do give it a look though. Monitoring threat seems to be quite easy from this perspective though, seeing as that’s really my job as tank and I don’t need to look around to do so. There are a few fights that are easy to RL and tank, but there are just as many that aren’t.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:09 am
I RL on whatever character I’m playing. Though it IS much easier if you aren’t tanking or up in the melee range.
A trick for Akil’zun, there’s a method of playing with your sound effects, which is much easier to do than the DBM casting bar, since that just tells you when the cooldown is up, and you’re sitting there being eaten by his AOE lightning bolts until storm.
This way, you can have someone who isn’t you dedicatd to calling out storm, based on the sound effects. I cant’ recall what settings you play with, but you can hear the storm coming in before he starts to cast.
We also find it easier to mark a stationary healer (paladin), who is healing the tank. The raid collapses on him so he can keep healing. When they’re standing out, it’s in a semi-circle with him as the center.
As a raid leader, I’ve discovered the only way to NOT go insane is to let the other group members do their job. Tell them what will happen and tell them what their jobs are, and then let them do it. Gotta trust the people you’re with. I trust that the person calling ‘collapse’ is doing her job correctly. I’m more concentrated on staying above the stupid warlock and mage in threat.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Bhujati, sometimes I feel a little sad too, when I post something and get comments like this one from Darksentinal; “Shackle is for the weak, solo chain-trap the adds on Moroes 6-7 times, hitting them with Distracting Shot to maintain threat (”/cast [target=focus] Distracting Shot” macros are also for the weak, if you move correctly you can hit trapped stuff with Distracting Shot without breaking the trap with Auto Shot), and if they break Wing Clip, Concussive Shot and kite-kite-kite! Lots of fun.”
And this one from Kumata; “Why shackle the add when you can trap it? Trapping them is more of a challenge and a lot of fun.”
If you think I’m implying that my personal opinion is that Hunters that do that are all showing off, rather than thinking that what I’m really doing is responding to the feel of comments like those above from an earlier post, and then I went on to say that I personally chose the method that requires less concentration so I can lead the raid with fewer distractions, well….
I frequently feel a little sad at some of the comments I get. Because they read a lot more into things than I put there.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Well, I’ve only RLed as a tank, and its been fine. Being able to trust your raiders is a big part of it too. Dont feel bad about the eagle boss - its a lot to deal with on a new fight… especially when you’re in the habit of trusting a mod that’s inaccurate. We also wiped a few times before we figured this out, and as others said, we had no problems when we used the sound effect approach. As a side point, I tend to dislike DBMs in some respects since it can make players lazy. People dont always know that DBM is the mod-writers attempt to predict what is happening, based on past experiences. Its not tied into the game beyond the visible information that every player already has access to. I wish more of my raiders would use the paying attention mod more of the time: no download time, always up to date and massively reliable.
October 9th, 2008 at 11:59 am
I’ve seen quite a few Prot Warriors as raid leaders. I guess my view for that is, you always have your Main Tank xD
Also you learn quite a bit as being a tank class, especially in 5-mans. Most 5-mans delegate the lead role to the main tank and therefore you lead the marking, the pulling and the CC. You get an idea of what each class can do quite early and quite fast. But really you can raid lead from any view as long as you know what you’re doing and you got communication going between your raid members.
Also, I’m sure someone mentioned this before but relying on the Boss Mod timers isn’t the safest way to call out the storms on the Eagle boss. The mod only calls out the cooldown and therefore the storm could happen at any time. The safest way to do the collapse method is have all your sounds off, but your ambience turned to max. Turn up the volume a bit higher than normal so you don’t have to focus too much to listen for it. Once you hear rain incoming, call out for everyone to collapse and you got one dead bird. =]
October 9th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
I don’t think I could ever RL while tanking. You don’t call it a big bear butt for nuthin. I find RLing is much easier when I’m in the back, playing heal-a-mole and getting a good view of the scene. Heh, I also have more control over, say, naughty DPSers who pull ag or are in the wrong spot. No heelz for joo!
As for Akil’zon, I agree about the sound effects. DBM has been super flaky lately with the timers. Also, you can probably just ignore the birds: healers just heal who’s hurt, and as long as everyone stays out of range (Ok, DBM is good here for the “too close” display), you should be able to avoid the electricity damage.
For healers, esp. trees, if they stand NO further away than the absolute minimum to avoid the electricity, it makes the run in to the tank MUCH easier. Heck, for any ranged that makes it easier. Faster in = fewer wipes.
Good job on your ZA foray!
It’s always nice to hit goals and then some.
October 9th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Off-topic, BBB.. but I have to ask a question..
You are obviously a knowledgeable player who enjoys the PvE game and raiding. I’ve been reading your blog for quite a while and it appears that you have never done much more than some limited SSC content, ZA, Kara and Mags.
I mean, as far as I can tell, the only thing separating you from Sunwell raiders is the amount of time you can put forth into playing this game. Doesn’t it make you a bit angry/irritated to be stuck in an endless progression loop around T4/T5 because your only limiting factor is time?
That just seems grossly unfair to me.
I mean, shouldn’t players like yourself who are time limited have a progression path to that type of content? This is an old topic to some degree but i have been playing WAR quite a bit lately and the PvP nature of that game is much more casual friendly than WoW. PvE Raiding is a different animal altogether, so I won’t make baseless comments like WAR is better, but I can’t help but notice the stark contrast to how casuals are treated between the two games.
Reading a blog like yours, where you seemingly have been stuck at a certain level of progression, makes it all the more obvious that Blizzard should be doing something to address casuals. The 10/25 man raiding is a step in the right direction in Wrath, but is it enough?
October 9th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Regarding RL duos (or teams), my guild does this a lot. Sometime a bit more than we like (random raid members trying to tell people what to do, rather than the officers who are intentionally working together in an organized fashion), but if we all have the same goal, having one person worried about one aspect of the fight, while someone else worries about another, etc, then, it can work really, really well. I have vent keybinds to talk specifically to certain people, and not the whole channel, that help facilitate that.
October 9th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I agree. It always makes me sad that BBB has one of the best (if not the best) feral blog, but is limited in progression by time constraints. I hope to god the 10/25 helps. Most of what I find time consuming is getting 25 reliable people together regularly - there’s a TON of admin just for that. You have to change plans at the last minute depending on who shows up, hope 25 people are all fully prepared in many different ways, and deal with situations when they are not. 10 pepole is so much easier to manage. Also, allowing classes to be more interchangable should help a lot, so you’re not stuck in LFG & guild recruitment circles looking for that shadow priest or elemental shaman.
October 9th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
WooT! I got a shout out on 3B’s Blog…….
um, but now I’m slightly self-concious that I may have spoken out of turn a time or two! Hope I didn’t poke the bear to get that shout out ^.^
Please be aware that there is no way in this life or the next that I can even think about RL’ing on ELysse….I just suck out loud on her! I have alot to learn
October 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
I have been considering starting a guild for 10 mans in Wrath with me Main Tanking on my Druid. Being a rookie RL (kinda, I’ve RL’d some Karas including teaching some fights to some people with success, but nothing above that) and definitely a rookie GM, I know that I will make mistakes. Do you feel that a mistake by a RL is more difficult for the raid to recover from or is it more difficult for the RL to recover from? Confidence seems to play a large part in RLing, so I was hoping to get your insight based on your experience. I know in your example that time was against you as well. Thank you for any positive insight I can get from you or any commenters.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
I tend to like being the main or off tank when I raid lead because even if the tank isn’t the raid leader, they still have a large amount of authority. The tanks are the ones dictating the pulls, positioning the mobs,etc.
My husband is a resto druid and I often ask him to help me, such as on Akil’Zon, he turns his ambient sounds up and calls out incoming storms for us, leaving me able to watch omen, etc. For the most part, the healers in my guild are excellent and I don’t have to baby them at all, if someone needs an innervate, they ask for it, etc. If you lay some responsibly on your raid members/ guildies, they tend to impress you!
Good luck on the next Akil’Zon attempt!
October 10th, 2008 at 8:24 am
I’ve done the RL thing as a number of classes, and without a doubt the easiest time of it is as an Elemental Shaman. You only have to worry about totems (hello totem timers), two differnt lightning bolts, and the occasional shock requirement. This gives you plenty of time to watch for everything else.
I’ve found that as a healer you tend to focus too much on keeping people alive, and as the main tank you often get “obscured view syndrome” so you have to rely on add-ons to tell you what’s happening.
Ultimately though, the best raid leaders are the ones who have mastered every element of their class and can do things blindfolded and with one hand, because they can concentrate less on playing and more on tactics & raid control. Our GL, who’s also our warrior MT, has been tanking since EQ, tanked through our old world raids and all of our BC raids. He knows all the skills so well that he can tank and still monitor all of the other stuff happening in a raid.
October 10th, 2008 at 11:14 am
BBB does have in my opinion the best feral druid blog out there… but in its nature it is designed and built around casual players. I honestly don’t think anyone farming BT has ever looked at BBB blog and said huh? I didn’t know that? His blog has been an incredible help for those starting out though and his service to the druid community cannot be measured in terms of progression. I think what makes his blog great is that he is casual and is raiding and yet brings concepts down to a level that a new player can understand. His blog relates to people because he isn’t talking about how his guild just cleared sunwell for the 25 thousandth time.
So… I’m selfish I guess in that I’m glad BBB isn’t in a progression guild because then I wouldn’t be able to relate to him… and he wouldn’t have time to write a blog.
As far as it being fair? I think the people who can put in the time and effort to beat the end game deserve to have something to be proud about. What value is there in endgame content if everyone can beat it casually? I do think 10 man’s will help alot though and am very much looking foward to progressing slowly with a group of friends.
October 10th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
When I started raid leading, I was a holy priest and I was told (sometimes kindly, sometimes not) that RL as a healer just Could Not Be Done. It certainly can, I say, and I put my vote in that RL as a healer is the easiest. I also RL on my hunter and I find that dps actually requires more attention than healing. From the healer’s perspective, you already have the whole raid in your view and in the front of your mind, raid leading is a small step from there. That being said, it’s very very nice (especially in some of the higher end content that we’ve been doing) when the tank can lead the dps and I can lead the heals.
October 10th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Tiger - we use the same tactic except we use a warlock. The warlock summons his/her imp and sends it up to the Tempest. Then the Tempest, Windwalker and Protector come down the hill. Our MT tanks the Tempest and Windwalker, the OT the Protector. Sometimes the mage needs to counterspell the Windwalker as he will often stay just out of range up the cliff face and blast you.
Also, if you turn your sound down and your ambiance up, you can clearly hear the rain. I wouldn’t rely on DBM or BW for it. Same with the channelers in Mags. Sometimes you just gotta watch.
In our guild, the tanks usually do not lead. Usually it’s a ranged dps as the the tanks are marking and the healers and drinking.
=)
October 11th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Heres a tip, dont watch the birds, doesnt do anything unless your on duty to kill them, and watching where they are doesnt help avoid their attacks or anything. Akilzon I personally feel is the most annoying encounter cause sometimes he wont use his lightening storm and sit there shocking the raid while were grouped up, hes the only boss you can die to from bad luck.
October 13th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
I’m a feral druid and usually OT for my casual guild’s raids into kara and za. Recently, due to absence from our GM, I have been given the reins so to speak on raid leading–and oh! How brilliant it is. I’ve never lead before a month or so ago, though I have attended many, and the sense of accomplishment after downing a boss you’ve been working on is doubly rewarding as leader. I ensure that all my members have equal footing to voice their opinions and thoughts on the fight ahead or the fight previous, and we all revel in the glory of our kills!
Personally speaking, I wouldn’t like to play a ranged DPS class whilst leading: I just don’t find it meshes with the way I lead or the way I work as a player. I tend to learn better when I’m up close and personal, and can witness the way threat/aggro, for example, works on certain mobs for myself. Being OT lets me sit back a *little* bit, but still be in control if things go wrong. I find I’m ‘on’ more when I’m in tank mode than when I’m playing a DPS class or role. It also lets me keep a better hand on the way my DPS are playing (my target is always the first to go, generally speaking, so I can keep tabs on their threat management more easily).
For new encounters, especially as we move further into ZA, being OT is preferable to MT in my opinion, since for most boss fights I can take more of a back seat and oversee things more clearly: I don’t have to do many things at once. Myself and the MT get on well and make a point of raiding together, so it’s probably fair to say that we are joint raid leaders. It’s a great setup and, coming from progression guilds where competition between tanks was fierce, I couldn’t be more pleased.
Thanks for the thought-provoking article, BBB. Incidentally, the worst raid member I could possibly imagine leading a raid with would be the Main Healer, but it was a frequent occurance in my old guild (albeit by a group who for the most part significantly outgeared the raid! :))
October 14th, 2008 at 10:38 am
I hear you brother. Tank and melee RL does cause you some troubles. Prot pally here, and RL for TA/SSC/ZA guild. One thing i found worked pretty well for me was to seperate certain roles and have someone in charge of them. The most common divisions were Tanks/OTs(me), Healers(usually a pally or shammy), range DPS/CC(ideally a mage or S-Priest), and melee(DPS warrior).
Not every fight needs to be broken down like this, but for the more complex fights having a small group of ppl you can trust to react in a predictable manner, and assist in directing traffic truly makes life a lot easier for the guy out there gettin wailed on. We have a 10 min pow-wow before we step in, and everyone is basically given a role to watch over. What you said about hunters taking more concentrationis absolutely right.
Thats why I run tanks as a pally(three button spam for the win). Shammys and pallys tend to have more time to look around than a druid or priest, due to the limited number of heals available to them. A DPS warrior is not goin to have to break combat to blind a broken CC target, and a mage or shadow priest tends to not move around all that much.
In the end tho, u need to be able to trust that the people who are there want to be. Having a clear and concise chain of command isnt about ego or rank, its about progression. Wipe nights suck. Keeping your raid organized in real time can be tough for one. the biggest thing is to make sure that those who are giving direction know whats expected of them.
Anywho, thats my two cents, dont pay more than that to hear it. Hope it was worth reading : )
PS-love the tag, Danath lol
October 16th, 2008 at 4:47 am
I serve in the role of RL in my guild’s 25-person raids, and I play a Hunter.
Being ranged, I do very much enjoy the distance aspect. I’m far way from the heat of the action, that gives me a wide view by default, and I can pivot my camera as necessary while still firing at a boss. Even if that boss is mobile, Steady Shot will automatically pivot me to follow my target, which comes in handy for me sometimes.
Having a few instant shots that can be fired while on the move, I like that I can maintain some DPS while I move around if I need to inspect a different part of the battlefield.
The number of things to juggle during combat can be daunting for any Raid Leader, so I don’t think its all that different for Hunter, although pet micromanagement tends to get rough when I’m looking over the entire raid.
But I look at it kind of like being a manager at work. My primary job is to ensure the people with me are operating at their full potential and gaining synergy from being together. My own personal performance is less important than the success of the team.
If that means I let my pet management slack a little bit while I tend to ensuring the raid is going right, so be it, as long as I’m personally contributing enough to not be a liability. Luckily, a Hunter’s DPS can generally be maximized by spamming a single key, which also relieves some of the detailed shot rotation stresses
Another thing I like about being a Hunter Raid Leader is that we’re not a buffing class. In between wipes, the RL has a billion details on his/her mind. Not having to worry about giving out the proper buffs is one less thing to worry about. Of course, we have to buff our selfes with elixirs, scrolls, foods, pet happy foods, pet DPS foods, proper Aspect, etc. But everybody’s got their baggage.