It’s that time again.

Level 80 brings with it revised ability and combat statistics. And now that there are folks nearing (or at) level 80, it’s time to lay down the new law.

I’m going to do my damndest to make this as clear as possible.

Level 80 Hit

At level 70; 15.76923275 Hit Rating = +1% Hit.
At level 80; 32.78998947 Hit Rating = +1% Hit.

Druids are, always, at maximum Weapon Skill in forms. At level 80; Weapon Skill = 400. NPC mobs are always at max Defense Skill per level. This means that, unlike other classes, we do not have to account for varying levels of Weapon Skill at level.

The base chance to miss a target when both attacker and defender are the same level is 5%. (400 Weapon Skill vs 400 Defense Skill)

If the defender is 3 levels higher (such as a level 83 raid boss with 415 Defense Skill) the base chance for us to miss increases to 8%.

At level 70, we needed 141.921 (effectively 142) Hit Rating to overcome that 8% chance to miss.

At level 80, we NOW need 262.32 (effectively 263) Hit Rating to overcome a 8% chance to miss.

Cut to the chase: New level 80 Feral Druid Hit Rating Cap: 263

Level 80 Expertise

I have found a correction to my original Expertise Parry information here at Elitist Jerks, which I will incorporate into my edit.

At level 80, a level 83 raid boss has a 6.5% chance to Dodge attacks from all directions, and a 16% chance to Parry attacks from a 180° arc to the bosses’ front.

10 Expertise = -2.5% to enemy chance to Parry and Dodge, regardless of level.
4 Expertise = -1%.

The Talent Primal Precision (2/2) grants 10 Expertise/ -2.5% to enemy Parry / Dodge.

Gear does not have Expertise. Gear has Expertise Rating.

At level 70; 15.76923275 Expertise Rating = 4 Expertise / -1% Parry / Dodge.
At level 80; 32.78998947 Expertise Rating = 4 Expertise / -1% Parry / Dodge.

With Primal Precision (2/2), we need to overcome 4% enemy chance to Parry / Dodge.

At level 80, with Primal Precision (2/2), we now need 131.15995788 (132 effective) Expertise Rating to eliminate enemy Dodge.
At level 80, with Primal Precision (2/2), tanking Bears can now use up to 442.664857845 (443 effective) Expertise Rating to eliminate enemy Parry.

Cut to the chase: New Feral Druid Expertise Rating Cap: 132 Kitties, 443 Bear Tanks.

**Level 80 Dodge**

The big one for Feral Druids that intend to tank; Dodge.

A lot of factors are involved in determining our actual chance to Dodge.

I will briefly describe each factor that is involved, before getting into how to apply them all for a total result.

Base Dodge is different for each class. It is the base chance a character has, standing naked without consideration for Talents or Racial abilities,  to Dodge an incoming attack.

Since Patch 3.0.1, level 80 Druids have a Base Dodge of 4.951.

Agility to Dodge ratio. How many points of pure Agility it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

At level 70; 14.7059 Agility = 1% Dodge.
At level 80; 41.6667 Agility = 1% Dodge.

Dodge Rating to Dodge ratio. How many points of Dodge Rating it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

At level 70; 18.92307854 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge.
At level 80; 39.34798813 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge.

Defense Rating to Dodge ratio. How many points of Defense Rating it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

Some brief background. Defense Rating adds to Defense Skill. The following data assumes that you are at level 80, and have maxed your Defense Skill to 400. Defense Rating adds to your chance to Dodge, Block, Parry and avoid being struck by Critical Blows. Bear tanks cannot Block or Parry. With Survival of the Fittest (3/3) Bear Tanks cannot be struck by Critical Blows from a level 83 raid boss. We therefore will ONLY discuss the benefits of Defense Rating in terms of bonus to Dodge.

25 Defense Skill provides +1% Dodge.
1 Defense Skill provides +0.04% Dodge.

At level 70; 2.365385056 Defense Rating = 1 Defense Skill.
At level 80; 4.918498039 Defense Rating = 1 Defense Skill.

At level 80, it therefore takes 122.962450975 (123 effective) Defense Rating to achieve +1% Dodge.

Warning! Only whole values of Defense Skill are applied. The value of Defense Rating is NOT rounded up to the next whole Defense Skill.

An example;
You have 19 Defense Rating. 19 Defense Rating / 4.918498039 = 3.862 Defense Skill = 3 Defense Skill. 3 Defense Skill = 0.12% chance to Dodge.

You have 20 Defense Rating. 20 Defense Rating / 4.918498039 = 4.066 Defense Skill = 4 Defense Skill. 4 Defense Skill = 0.16% chance to Dodge.

Talents. Feral Druids have two Talents that directly increase Dodge.

Feral Swiftness (2/2) increases chance to Dodge +4%.
Natural Reaction (3/3) increases chance to Dodge +6%.

Racials. Night Elf Druids no longer get a 1% chance to Dodge from Swiftness. The Night Elf Racial was changed to instead give +2% chance to be missed.

When computing your Dodge%, please take this into account. Note that Night Elves get +2% Miss, but do not factor it into your Dodge.

This is a buff, with some consequences. Lemme sum up;

It has gone from +1% Dodge to +2% Miss, and 1% Miss has the same mitigation effect as 1% Dodge. So this is a nice increase. The significance of the change from Dodge to Miss is that Warrior effects that proc from the opponent Dodging, like Overpower, are not procced by misses. Likewise, the enemy Swing Timer is reset by Dodges… not by Misses. This means that a Night Elf gains 2% increased chance to miss over a Tauren, without incurring a corresponding increased Swing Timer reset chance. But it also means the +2% Miss does not help Druid Rage generation from Natural Reaction. So again, when you’re analyzing your Dodge%, and seeing how it therefore applies to Swing Timers and Rage generation, make a mental note that Quickness is good, but has limited effects.

Opponent Level Modifier. There is a Dodge difference due to Defense Skill vs Weapon Skill, when fighting higher level opponents. When a level 80 Druid fights a level 83 raid boss, you suffer a -.2% Dodge Penalty per level you are lower, due to your reduced base Defense Skill in comparison to the higher level Weapon Skill. So with your Defense of 400 vs Raid Boss Weapon Skill of 415, you suffer a total of -.6% Dodge due to the difference in levels.

How to apply all this to determine Total Dodge.

I have been asked to apply the Diminishing Returns rules to this, so that the final result you get will in fact be your correct Total Dodge. This is going to be miserable, but I’ll try to simplify this as much as I can.

Your Total Dodge consists of two different categories: Those stats affected by Diminishing Returns, and those that aren’t.

At this time, Base Dodge and Talents are unaffected by Diminishing Returns. Agility, Dodge Rating and Defense Rating ARE affected.  

So we have to split things up into two sections; Base, and Pre-DR.

Add up the Base stats; 

Base Dodge = 4.951
Feral Swiftness (2/2) = 4
Natural Reaction (3/3) = 6
Level difference from 83 raid boss = -.6

The total, 14.351, is our Feral Bear Dodge unaffected by Diminishing Returns.

Next, add up the Pre-DR stats.

Dodge from Agility = Your Agility from gear divided by 41.6667
Dodge from Dodge Rating = Your Dodge Rating divided by 39.34799
Dodge from Defense Rating = Your Defense Rating divided by 4.918498039, rounded down to the nearest whole number, and then the result multiplied by 0.04

We will call the total Pre-DR Dodge.

We will now work with your Pre-DR Dodge total to determine what the final value after Diminishing Returns will be.

The formula that Whitetooth derived that we will use is as follows;

Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / Pre-DR Dodge))

Your final Total Dodge after Diminishing Returns is;

14.351Dodge (After DR)

I so, so, so did not want to get into Diminishing Returns in this post. Sigh. I apologise for the pain. I really hope that it came across clearly.

I’m going to give you one example.
For the purpose of this example, I’m going to pretend that you do not have ANY Dodge Rating or Defense Rating. Only Agility added from equipped gear.

We start with 200 Agility. Our Pre-DR Dodge would be 4.799996%.
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / 4.799996))
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + 0.202500)
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / 0.211055
Dodge (After DR) = 4.738101%

200 Agility before DR, 4.799996% Dodge.
200 Agility after DR, 4.738101% Dodge.

We now increase it to 400 Agility. Our Pre-DR Dodge would be 9.599972%.
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / 9.599972))
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + 0.101253)
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / 0.109808
Dodge (After DR) = 9.106804%

400 Agility before DR, 9.599972% Dodge.
400 Agility after DR, 9.106804% Dodge.

Remember, after obtaining the Dodge (After DR) value, you still need to add 14.351 to it.

I’d like to thank the hard work of Whitetooth, creator of the RatingBuster addon who posted so much core data analysis at the Elitist Jerks website, the historical data at Wowwiki, and the insanely awesome folks at MMO Champion and Wowhead for giving me the tools for putting this post together.

121 Responses to “Feral Druid level 80 Hit, Expertise and Dodge”
  1. Kal says:

    At level 80, a level 83 raid boss has a 6.5% chance to Parry/Dodge.

    This is incorrect. The dodge rate appears to be at least 7%, and the parry rate appears to be at least 15%. It depends on the boss fight, of course; they modify the parry rates to make the fights more difficult or easier depending. Parry is, as a rule, much higher than dodge rate.

    Also, the dodge ratio completely ignores diminishing returns. You’re correct that this would be the non-diminished value, but the diminished value is very different. The level difference is also .6, not .06.

  2. Bigblackbull says:

    Crikey.. those numbers hurt. Thanks for the compilation :) now to contemplate

  3. bigbearbutt says:

    Kal… please add a link to where you have found substantiating data for your corrections to help me verify.

    And seriously… you couldn’t just email me about the typo between -.6 and -.06 in the last line?

  4. Caelean says:

    Doesn’t defense still add to +miss in addition to +dodge?

    I know you didn’t directly address being missed, but it doubles the effectiveness of defense, so it might be worth mentioning..

    And I heard something about a diminishing returns on +dodge, but I haven’t seen any numbers yet…

  5. Bailey says:

    Thanks for the numbers! This will be very helpful.
    Like Caelean, I’m wondering about the diminishing returns on dodge. I heard we have it (point of diminishing returns) higher than other classes to make up for lack of block/parry.
    At what point do diminishing returns kick in? What is the agility conversion rate once diminishing returns kick in? Is there a dodge avoidance cap?
    I’ve been looking around but can only seem to find warrior numbers.
    Any information you have regarding this would be awesome.

  6. bigbearbutt says:

    Yeah, Caelean, you read right, there are now Diminishing Returns on Agility, Defense Rating and Dodge Rating from gear.

    Because of how massive a pill the math is to swallow, I was going to address it tomorrow.

    But, since this is the second time in 3 comments it’s been brought up, I’ve modified this post to reflect the DR data I was going to write tomorrow.

    I hope this, somehow, helps.

  7. Caelean says:

    Sorry. The link to the EJ site is probably more than sufficient. Ugh. Rawr / Emmerald are going to be my friend.

    Looking at wowwiki on miss chance:

    Base: Your base miss rating is 5%.

    For each point of the attacker’s attack rating over your defense skill, the base miss rate decreases by 0.02%.

    For each point of your defense skill over the attacker’s attack rating, the base miss rate increases by 0.04%.

    So against a level 83 mob, you have a base miss chance of 4.7%.

    Raising your defense skill to 15 raises your miss chance by 0.3%

    Each point of defense skill over 15 raises your miss chance by 0.04%.

    So 123 points of Defense Rating improves your miss by 0.7%. The next 123 points raises it by 1%.

    So assuming you have more than 76 points of Defense Rating already, it takes 61.5 points to improve avoidance by 1% (0.5% dodge, 0.5% miss.) Defense is therefore worth about 2/3 of a point of dodge or agility, when comparing gear.

  8. Beathooven says:

    Bookmarked, reported for sticky, recommended for Nobel prize for services to druid tanking.
    So glad someone did this before I had to do it myself =D

  9. Kal says:

    Sorry, BBB. I didn’t think it would be a problem. And I see you’ve found the link at EJ for parry mechanics, so no worries.

    For others – there is also diminishing returns on miss. They just don’t tend to factor in as much, as most people don’t stack a lot of miss. Because dodge does diminish and druids get so much more of it, and because defense has both dodge and miss rating, defense rating actually becomes more valuable with respect to dodge the more dodge you have. Around 51% dodge rating (and 0% miss rating) defense becomes better than dodge on a per-point basis.

  10. Runycat says:

    Great minds think alike! I posted a vastly simplified version up on my site earlier this morning.

  11. Sweet says:

    Very nice post. I’ve been waiting for some numbers like this. I’m no math professor, but I like to play around with numbers every once in awhile.

    If my math is correct, if you were to stack pure agility (no def, no dodge) it would take roughly 8600 AGI to reach 100% dodge.

    8600 AGI is about 75% after diminishing returns then you add the +14.351 base dodge and +10% dodge from talents.

    Now, this is in no way pratical because a smart tank will mix agi, dodge and def to minimize diminishing returns, but I just found that to be quite interesting. And quite a big number.

    To the question of dodge avoidance cap, I do not believe there is a dodge avoidance cap since we had level 70 rogues tanking illidan. But because of these diminishing returns I do not think it will ever be possible to have 100%+ avoidance at Level 80.

  12. Skittle says:

    Thanks BBB – this is a really helpful post.

    One thing I didn’t see covered was haste, which is now showing up in so many items. Is this something that should be factored in for bear form as well, or only cat/boomkin?

  13. Michael E Sullivan says:

    this was great, thanks. doing up a litttle gear spreadsheet now.

    Sweet: I don’t think you can get to 100%, pretty sure also that in addition to DR there is a hard cap of 75% dodge, like with armor.

    Also, the +14.351 base dodge includes the +10 from talents (pretty sure bearbutt is assuming that every tank will take those talents). So 8600 agi gives only 89.351, but I think in fact that it would still be only 75%, and there’s no point in stacking stats beyond 60.65% dodge.

    Also, mixing agi, dodge and defense doesn’t actually help us, as the DR is calculated from the dodge%, not each individual stat that affects it. What *does* help is stacking miss and parry along with dodge, which doesn’t mean much for druids (although at very high levels of dodge, defense may become competitive mitigation with dodge and agi because of bad DR for dodge but excellent DR for miss). Unlike TBC, other tanks are going to have much better avoidance scaling than druids once we get to stuff past T7. I have some concern that we’ll become inferior for the better raids if something isn’t done. We scale better on armor than anybody else, but Blizz is heading away from having high armor pieces available, so I see potential trouble ahead if our modifier isn’t upped when the armor nerf comes (or perhaps given another stat to scale mitigation with)

  14. Sweet says:

    hmm – it seems weird that the DR would be calculated straight from the dodge %. Now that I’m looking at it, I dont really like the way feral tanking gear is heading. I espeically don’t like the fact that rogues will be rolling on MY gear :P

    I think I’m going to take this opportunity to respec moonkin for leveling and then resto for endgame. I’m at least going to try it out and see how I like it.

    Besides, I hardly ever see a “LF Tank” in chat anymore, its mostly “LF Healer”. The one thing I liked about being a tank was being able to log on and pretty much have something to do. But I guess with all the DKs running around the demand for tanks has been falling.

    But thats just an opinion.

  15. Bearwisper says:

    Ok i have a question. I heard that with all 3 points in Sotf (Survival of the fittest) Decreases ur chance to be Crit by 6% and bosses have a 5.6% chance to crit u at lvl 80……Im lvl 80 and im tank speced and i ran a Heroic and i got critted Several times Whats up with that??

  16. Treehugger says:

    hay guys really informative post above really like it showed me alot….any chance you can say what dodge rating u should be looking towards for say heroics and raids. Its just iv been doing some heroics with the following 22k armor, guardian, around 25k unbuffed in bear, and 34% dodge and to be frank im getting hit down like a sack of potatoes :P

    any chance you can shed some light on if its just bear tanking in general atm or the stats i currently have need to be improves

    if you could post back i would appreciate it

    thanks

  17. Aisnal says:

    Hello Treehugger, I have roughly about the same stats that you do, and I had the same problem, until I had a look around to see what I had to help me against being smashed.. I normally pop Barkskin after a pull (when the mobs reach me) to minimize the damage done to me since there are about 2-4 mobs beating me up (Don’t use much CC in my groups :) ) Barkskin has really, really saved me a lot of times, I’d also suggest you to get some Indestructible Potions (http://thottbot.com/i40093) If you pop one right before a boss pull, then you’ll be able to keep it up for 4 minutes (just make sure you pop it before you go into combat then you’ll be able to pop another after 2 minutes while engaged with the boss). Hope this helped you, and others who may be reading it!

    Aisnal – Ahn’Qiraj (EU)

  18. DroodTank says:

    K at lvl 70 our def was to be at 415, i was wondering what it needs to be now. im currently at 432DEF, armor about 25.8k, hp is sittin at 22-23k unbuffed. I seem to do okay in heroics, tho i am gettin hit alil harder than im used to. So How much def should i have added to the origional 415 i had when i was raiding bt at lvl 70? ty

  19. Daj says:

    From what I keep hearing, Drood, you don’t need any, given that you have Survival of the Fittest with maxed points in it. However, having tanked a few times without my old Def Rating capped gear, I have to say I’m incredibly disappointed at the changes Blizzard has made to my class and its ability to tank effectively. Yes, threat generation is a lot more easily managed given the changes made to swipe, berserk, and the nice maul glyph. However the only thing that seems to happen when the mobs are finally on me is that something hits me hard, and I die. Barkskin helps, but it’s only marginal. I’m thinking I’m going to go back to using the tanking rings and necks.

  20. Pastamasta says:

    Bearwhisper, you’re probably thinking about the select few mobs that have a self buff that increases their crit chance. One would be the… fire revenant things in halls of lightning. Their overburn or whatever its called increases their crit chance by 50%. Fortunately they don’t hit too hard without it so when they do crit its like a normal hit.

  21. Meneldur says:

    Thanks again BBB….woulda been screwed without you several times. I have just reached 80 and i’m starting to look around again at minimum stat requirements for heroics/raids etc.

    Let me get this straight….i dont need def rating anymore? only in terms of it adding to my dodge? Interesting…so..what does my dodge need to be? :P

    Also BBB….any chance of a repeat of the AWESOME “Bear Tanking Gear for Heroics” list you did for level 70? Thanks again dude. :D

  22. Ocd says:

    Awesome post – for us none Mathematical types… what are we aiming for to start 10 man content with regards to Hit and Expertise.

    Currently I have
    Hit 145
    Expertise 146
    (Rating)

    Hitting the numbers suggested seems Questionable, i have been looking through Thottbot and the Armory and it would be pretty specific drops for us to achieve this, I remember reading a post from Blizzard saying they wanted our gear to differ more, this looks like we will be cookie cutter Druids if we all want to reach the same level.

  23. Dan says:

    Hello everyone,

    Thanks for the great post explaining the changes with hit rating / expertise rating post, I found it very insightful especially catered to the druid setup.

    I noticed some people were finding the diminishing returns ‘painful’, so I thought ‘here is a chance to help make the diminishing returns more clear’. The first thing I did was I took the formula and jammed it into a spreadsheet. I took data at every 1 point of Pre-DR Dodge and calculated the Post-DR Dodge, then graphed it. Since I don’t have any handy dandy way to post my graph I will summarize my results :

    Pre-DR Dodge 1-13% In this range you lose less than one percent of your dodge rating to diminished returns. Quite simply at 1% you lose almost nothing, and at 13% Pre-DR Dodge your effective is 12%

    Pre-DR Dodge 13-18% In this range you lose 1-2% due to diminished returns

    Pre-DR Dodge 18-21% In this range you lose 2-3% due to diminished returns

    I dont know that going beyond this number is useful, I know that for my druid going beyond 20% dodge rating just from defense, parry, and dodge rating would be absurd. However I conclude that ‘diminishing returns can be considered reasonably negligable for the first 13% Pre-DR Dodge, a minor problem 13-18%, and a major headache 18-21%’. Check to see where you are now, for me the DR is not a cause for concern.

    On an unrelated note I would like to point out that of these three dodge ratings AGI > Dodge Rating >> Defense Rating.

    AGI still grants AC and Crit Rating, and is pretty much on par with Dodge Rating for the % effective dodge. Do not undervalue this stat, even though Dodge Rating got a boost. When scouting out your gear I suggest looking for AGI over all the rest, use dodge rating as a cheap substitute, and treat defense rating as a stat so useless it compares to int.

    Cheers!

  24. Bbslos says:

    Great post. But, i was wondering why u have not specified any Armor cap? this still, along with dodge is a feral tank druids only forms of mitigation. it was 35800 approx at lvl 70. I currently have 32k in bear form or just shy of, and am curious as to the mathematics and calculations. Pls advise.

  25. Animal says:

    Hello
    Something with hit rating doesnt seem to be right. I have exaclty 300 hit rating and on the wintergrasp 25man boss i had 7.5% miss on auto attacks, and 10% miss on both mangle and shred (10.4% on shred, 10.5% on mangle to be precise). Im talkin about pure plain old MISS. Not quite sure whats going on… Did they change feral hit cap or something.
    Was wondering if anyone else had similar issues and if anyone can comment on it…

  26. Animal says:

    forget about my previous post lol
    just found out that the dust cloud spell that the boss does reduces ur chance to hit by 50% while standing in it
    life is tough when ur a melee eh

  27. Ursinus says:

    One thing to note – if you’re doing heroics (not raiding yet), the bosses are level 82. So you’re hit cap is much lower at 196.73993682 (~197).

  28. Pimeson says:

    I found Dan’s input also useful.. When I look at gear I do it the same way – not an a point-per-point basis but rather seeing which piece has more of the better stats. It’s nice to know that AGI is the most efficient use of item value in the item’s stat allocation with respect to % effective dodge, compared to dodge rating and defense.

    In my mind, %effective dodge is equivalent to % mitigation. I am wondering how armor compares to all this. Pre-Wrath, armor actually produced the best % mitigation considering its cost to the item’s stat budget. Is that still true?

  29. DJK says:

    First of all thank you very much for the Input on the calculations Sr. Big Bear Butt =)
    Very much appreciated :)

    Second, i would like to ask Animal or any of you, how to get the hit rating cap and expertise… since i am more a kitty rather than bear… (when its needed..a simply click does it all)… hehe
    As in… what specific gear, enchants, gems to use. Animal… 300 Hit rating OMG!! can i have it? lol :D
    But on a serious note, doing a good rotation of Mangle, Shred/Rake +TFury and FB… i’m getting around just 1300DPS :(

    If any of you have any sort of advice…do help the poor cat! hehe

    Thank you! :)

    “Smelly Cat Smelly Cat…what are they feeding you?”

  30. Yurameki says:

    Yo guys ;)
    One thing I have found now with Bear tanking… (thought I should contribute to this site, seeing how much I am using it ;p)
    My Druid is and will allways be feral (Tanking For Life!!!!!).
    I heard a lot of ppl saying that they are getting beaten down like a sack of Sheit, and so fort, and ppl mentioning having to use BS (BarkSkin) and so forth.
    There is sadly for us druids, much like in TBC, tier gear that makes a differance. (the t7 4set bonus is crap, but stats on items are gr8).
    I got atm 31.5K armor (unbuffed) alongside with 40% (ish) dodge, and so will you (dont need that much t7 either…. currently 3/5 t7).
    What you will find hard in the end will be the HIT. From my t6 -> t7 the hit has changed alot… I need to gem for hit to get it up, and needing over twice as much hit as tbc cap, makes this a “Biatch”.
    What I am trying to say is: Go find your self a guild/group to Naxx 10man (or 25 man for that sake). The Content in Naxx is scary easy (kinda dissapointing rly), and the gear you get from there is a sick upgrade. Then you just need to get the enchants, and stack up hit like hell… (I tried to begin with to go around the hit by going Expertise. It is, sadly, not as effective as the hit. stack hit over Expertise.)
    More and more gear now hold Armor on it (Rings off: Drak’tharon Keep & Sapphiron in Naxx. The back in there (cant remember the name, but holds 450 armor and some stats, and my fav. The Trinket off Thadius -> 850 armor X 400 (ish))
    have some fun now at least… Then in a little while we can bitch about druids, seeing how Blizz is going 2 screw us over ;)

    Yura!

  31. Waldengel says:

    I read over this twice and I am still not seeing it — maybe I need new glasses ;-0

    How much defense rating does a bear druid need at 80 these days for raiding? How much dodge should he have? If gemming, dodge > agility? Or agility > dodge? Or all stamina?

    Thanks much!

  32. Tealuen says:

    Waldengel: Re-Read the first post under the dodge section

  33. Waldengel says:

    Still not seeing it. Maybe I shouldn’t have joked about the glasses. How much defense rating should I have? How much dodge do I need / should have? Also, since we are at it, how much expertise? What is a good unbuffed HP amount to aim for in bear form to be able to clear Naxx on regular?

    Thanks much for helping out an apparently blind man.

  34. Arke says:

    Waldengel: None, if you have 3/3 SotF

  35. Isekinicho says:

    Waldengel:
    These are my estimates based on my current experience, but they are not exact and others certainly will have their own estimates to share so treat these as numbers to play with.

    Dodge: you “should” strive to get as much dodge as you can without sacrificing stam or armor. As a general rule I strive to get a minimum of 25% dodge though having more is definitely desired.

    Expertise: You should focus on getting a minimum of 132 expertise rating to eliminate the chance to dodge your attacks. As a tank strive to get up to cap of 443 expertise rating without sacrificing avoidance, health or damage reduction.

    Armor: With 25k armor in bear I’m still getting hit quite hard, but it’s a good minimum to shoot for. It’s extremely difficult to find armor on druid feral items these days without clearing Naxx 10/25 man. I would recommend 30k, but that’s not really feasible with pre-10 man gear.

    HP: Unbuffed I would recommend a min of 23k in bear form. Definitely not ideal, but it’s passable for Naxx.

    Hit: Aim to get to the cap of 295.2 hit rating. This is currently very difficult to accomplish as a tank so my opinion is to worry about it after you’ve met the mins you need in other areas. In my opinion, we will not miss enough hits to significantly reduce your threat generation to justify getting hit over avoidance, stam and damage reduction.

    Talents: I’ve seen arguments regarding leaving a point here or there out of some of these talents, but I can’t recommend enough fully investing in them if you wish to tank:
    Thick Hide: 3/3
    Survival of the Fittest: 3/3
    Feral Swiftness: 2/2
    Natural Reaction: 3/3
    Primal Precision: 2/2
    Protector of the Pack: 3/3
    Primal Fury: 2/2

  36. Isekinicho says:

    I neglected to include defense in my previous comment:
    Defense: Min of none really. Once you’ve reached comfortable numbers in armor, stam, and avoidance you can add defense to further nullify lvl 83 mob weapon skill or to increase your avoidance if you don’t have other options. As mentioned above, it’s only worth 2/3 the value of other avoidance stats, so it’s not really valuable to go after if you have alternatives. I see it as an unavoidable stat on most of the non-leather tanking items available for druids so it’s merely an additional stat, but something you should minimize as much as possible in favor of dodge, agi, stam, armor etc.

  37. The one says:

    I don’t see wat ur prob is with gettin armor up and dodge up i got 29k armor and 40% dodge and 31747 hp i get hit hard sometimes but most healers are gettin bored of healin me as i dodge alot and boss and trash miss quiet offen only thing i found to be a pain lack of gear in raids theres the odd few pieces for us but other than that im happy with my druid tank. feral tank ftw peeps its so much more fun holdin groups of trash as we do it so much better now so screw cc imo

  38. Waldengel says:

    I dont see how I would be able to get that much hit AND expertise with pre-naxx or even Naxx gear. I have to look into that more.

  39. Rage says:

    I’m with Ocd, what most of us are looking for are minimum guidelines and some sort of priority. In BC we had 415 Defense, it was a solid number that we knew we needed to obtain if we wanted to be good tanks.
    Now in Wrath we need to re-establish a norm with some solid numbers to shoot for?
    Armor? Stam? Exp? Hit? Def? Dod? Info raid leaders should know.
    I don’t want to waste hour’s number crunching things I know many of you already have done this. Can someone please post with Minimum/IDEAL numbers for the stats above as well as priority?

    In my case I have a ton of armor and hp but low hit and I miss a lot! But, deciding what stats to move around has been a huge pain for me because I don’t have good numbers to reach for. I also wonder if I have enough expertise. I know a lot of druids that are only stacking HP or Dodge because they don’t know what else to jem/enchant for.
    Can someone reply with Min/Ideal’s for the following:
    IE:
    Min / Ideal
    Armor: 28k / 32K
    Stam: 28k / 30K
    Exp: 80 / 150
    Hit: 80 / 150
    Dodge: 28 / 32

    Also add anything you feel is important.
    I read a post someone made about getting Imp Mark of the Wild by only putting 3pts in Furor and I love it!

    Isekinicho kind of did this but I don’t really agree with him.
    I had over 30k armor with mostly crafted leather items, now I’m sitting close to 37k with a couple pieces of 10man Nax gear. Plus hit cap sounds like a waste to me for a tank. IMO you should be more worried about survival stats.
    Balance is the Key! BTW the Forst Gear is amazing for Druid Tanks! It has lots of Armor, HP and sockets.

  40. Waldengel says:

    ^^ This.

    I dont see how it is possible to cap hit and expertise with the gear and gems, while at the same maintaining high HP, dodge and armor. I think it is fascinating how many different opinions are out there, and no one seems to be able to agree on e.g. ‘you need 415 defense rating, period’-type statements.

    Guide Us Oh Lord Of The Bears!

  41. Bailif says:

    I think the point being made is that with DR it is hard to pin point an exact number. The rough guidelines are littered all throughout this post (and replies). It has helped me better understand where I should aim for. I am currently Balance at the moment, but my guild kind of is lacking in the tanking dept. so I figured I would look into gearing up and respecing, or at least making it my secondary spec when implemented.

    I will gear to the low limits, try it out and see where to improve, as you do with any other type of spec. Just looks like a more narrow journey than it seemed to be in TBC.

  42. Waldengel says:

    Even if it is not possible to pin down an exact number, even a ballpark would be helpful. Do you need 0 defense rating? Do you need 250/300/450/500?

  43. Ocd says:

    Rage how in the name of god are you getting to 37000 armor?

    i consider myself well geared and only sit at 23000 armor and that gives 62% dmg reduction. would this be on the PTR with the patch or how are you reacning thoes numbers?

  44. Ocd says:

    These are my Stats for 10 man Naxx and so far I have had no issues surviving or building and maintaining threat. There are no Heroics that I am not able to run and even hit up 25 man Archavon a few times.

    Waldengel you would only need the defense that comes with your level which should be 400 – no additional defense is needed

    Raid Buffed
    Armor: 23000
    HP: 40000
    Exp: 195
    Hit: 195
    Dodge: 38

    Ocd – Kargath

    My Stam is high due to my Trinkets and Jewel crafting but before I went JCing I have 36000hp for heroics.

  45. Sharrael says:

    hey guys thkns a lot for all this info. it’s just strange to think i don’t need any def lol, hard to believe. what i was wondering though. Ocd, can you post ur stats without the raid buffs? kinda curious to see how close i am.
    sincerely yours a (always) drunk drood

  46. Ocd says:

    wow, ok, I take back the question about the Armor – i equiped my Rings and Staff with armor and honestly if i had a Neck Peice and a Trinket with Armor and cloak then i would be around the 35k armor mark

  47. Dinorino says:

    If your not JCing, you can still easily have a lot of hit points xith the azjol trinket. personnaly, i am not JCing and here are my stats:
    Raid buffed:
    Armor: 30K
    HP: 38K
    Dodge: 44%
    I don’t know about my hit and expertise besause i prefere getting my doge up at first, all the other stats comme easily, even very easily with just the gear. I nerver had any probleme in any 10-man raid, i’m also starting the 25 man Naxx raid ( don’t have any stuff there so …) but i don’t have any problemes too.

  48. Ocd says:

    hey Sharrael

    just look me up on the Armory – Ocd is his name

  49. Astronis says:

    Silly question but, from what i know feral druid do not need much of Defense Rating , i stand my self on 412 defense atm.
    tho what should be my dodge at to make sure i will be safe is 25 men raids??
    and if i could just reduce defense rating more??
    we used to need 415 in TBC now some ppl say we do not even need it i just keep 412 just incase..
    according to Beimba my toon need to..
    Overcapped defenses: -0.88% crit chance on you (safe to free up 21 defense if you prefer other stats) [?]
    Defense rating of 62 is not optimal: 60 or 64 may be better
    Expertise rating of 116 is not optimal: 115 or 123 may be better

    now i am confused >.<

  50. soM says:

    Unbuffed Stats:
    Armor: 26k
    HP: 33k
    Dodge: 38%

    Haven’t checked stats full raid buffed, but i imagine around 44k hp and 30k armor. About 48% dodge as well.
    Stack agility imo, seems to be the best stat for dodge, and also provides armor + crit.

    Name = Erased @ Dreadmaul.

    And no, we do not need much defense rating due to the talent ‘Survival of the Fittest’

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