Comments on: Questions about Defense and Survival of the Fittest

By: Mewkow

Mewkow — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:18:21 +0000

Random but related question to your comment about the direbrew dodge trinket.

I happened to get both of the direbrew +170 stamina trinkets, and the nice dodge trinket.
As a bear, would I be better served having both stam trinkets equiped(as I do now) or trading one for that dodge trinket?

I also wonder what the value is of that crit trinket of his, for things like the bear shield, but I highly suspect its not worth it.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&n=Mewkow for the curious.

By: Adgamorix

Adgamorix — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:17:03 +0000

Ciderhelm did a great post long ago on Tankspot about Armor and HP being equal in effective health levels. I won’t repeat his math – but the short version is 1k Armor = 1k HP for effective Health purposes.
.-= Adgamorix´s last blog ..I was expecting more of Lady Prestor =-.

By: Pete

Pete — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:03:52 +0000

Addendum to Druidoff: 3.2 nerfed Dodge rating and Agility dodge. That is really why it’s unlikely you’ll realistically see Defense become more useful than Dodge Rating. IMPORTANT POINT: Agility is WAY better than Defense. Yes you get dodge from Agility. You also get Armor (and crit but that is only marginally useful). Every little point of armor you get makes you plenty more survivable. Don’t be fooled because at 22k armor you reduce attacks by 62% and at 30k you reduce them by 67%. That’s a big difference. You might think “5% sucks.” Fine, but it’s not 5% of incoming damage because you’re already down to 38%. It’s 33% instead of 38% or put another way it’s 35/38 or an additional 8% mitigated damage. That’s nothing to sneeze at when bosses hit for 18-24k (When you have 32k armor).

By: Urak

Urak — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:34:50 +0000

So Druidoff… Would I want to get my Dodge to 55% and then start on the defense gear, or 50% like the post said?

By: Adgamorix

Adgamorix — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:45:22 +0000

@Erdluf – Sorry mate – but all bosses are hit capped against lvl 80 chars. That being said however, there is always a base 5% chance to miss, regardless of skill cap – from the boss side. You can look at it here http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table – it’s a little outdated model, as crushing blows have been removed, but theier percentage has been folded into crit for mobs <= 3 lvls above you.
.-= Adgamorix´s last blog ..Leveling a Paladin – the Prot way =-.

By: Erdluf

Erdluf — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:44:24 +0000

I don’t see it mentioned above. I believe the reason Defense can be greater than Dodge at some level, is that Defense also contributes to Miss. Since your total avoidance includes Miss+Dodge, and Dodge eventually runs into diminishing returns, that Miss term can eventually push Defense Rating > Dodge Rating.

By: Adgamorix

Adgamorix — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:00:57 +0000

Crushing blows were originally – and still are – implemented to keep you from tackling content way above your level. Pre Wrath you had to get 104% avoidance to avoid crushing blows. This is why Reckoning was bad for Protadins, and getting Parry-Gibbed was a real issue. Note: This talks about a lot more than Druids.

Essentailly if your Block + Parry + Dodge > 104%, any attack against you would be blocked, parried, or dodged. Shield Block (for warriors) had only 2 charges every 6 sec, with a 5 sec (talented) CD. If the boss swang faster than that, the tank was in trouble. Many entry Paladins relied on Redoubt’s 35% block chance to push them over the 104% mark. This means they HAD to absorb at least one shot, to get Redbout to proc. Not a good method.

Take Tidewalker – hit like a truck, but a fairly slow attack speed. A warrior keeping up Shield Block would be “Crush” immue due to 104%+ avoidance, and “Crit” immune from being Defense ‘capped (400 or 380, I forget). Anyway, if TW parried someone (this is when Expertiese was starting to show up on gear) it would reset his swing timer to say 1/2 speed – meaning instead of getting whacked every 3 seconds, you’d get hit at the 1.5 second mark. This was affectionately referred to as “parry gibbing” your tank.

When Wrath came out, they removed CBs from the combat table (at 3 levels, still available to hit you at 4+ levels) because Druids and DKs didn’t have an effective way of pushing them off the table (the attack table John was talking about). So, they either had to come up with some method, or just remove them. This is the reason Druids had such ridiculously high HP and Armor in BC (they still have a lot), as it was expected that they would be able to absorb any crushing blows.

Personally, I’m fine with the removal. This also means that it’s much more difficult to “parry gib” your tank, and you can now attack from the front with less fear.
.-= Adgamorix´s last blog ..Leveling a Paladin – the Prot way =-.

By: Derrick

Derrick — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:38:24 +0000

Yeah, Steve’s correct: Crushing Blows still exist, but they require a 4 or 5 level gap before they can happen. So they can happen, but they’re only something to be concerned about if you’re levelling and tanking higher level instances.

By: Brazzle

Brazzle — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:36:53 +0000

Just a note – crushing blows still exist in the game, but you cannot be crushed by an enemy 3 or fewer levels above you. That is to say, only an enemy 4 or more levels above you can deliver a crushing blow.

By: bigbearbutt

bigbearbutt — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:38:41 +0000

To put into plain language what Druidoff is saying, and what I did NOT make clear in my post, Dodge Rating is superior to Defense Rating on a point to point basis, but Defense is still very useful, and items that have Defense Rating still boost your Dodge, and you WILL find that it’s easier to find items with Defense Rating than Dodge Rating for some slots like Rings, Necklaces and Trinkets.

Although good lord, that Dodge trinket from Coren Direbrew is tasty. Num num num.