Comments on: Neither fish nor flesh nor good red herring http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/ Feral Druids in World of Warcraft Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:56:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Rose http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-22065 Rose Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:59:06 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-22065 It's interesting to see what this point in the game means to different people. I'm in a guild that is semi-casual but does progression raiding by partnering with a sister guild. We have raids going most nights of the week, but TotC threw a wrench in our raiding when it first arrived. Our 10-man raids were downing Yogg and working on some hard mode fights, but our 25-man was banging their heads against Yogg's big ugly inner sanctum. As a guild that's been around since Vanilla, we had several traditionalists who wanted to finish what we started before moving on, while many other members wanted to leave Yogg behind and move on to TotC. In the end we run several 10 mans, including an alt/funrun Uld 10, Uld10 Hardmode and Algalon attempts, several TotC10s, and a TotC10 heroic. Week before last, we decided to go back in after Yogg (and realized we'd lost the lockout >.<), but this past week we went in and killed him, which has prompted much discussion on our guild forums about what to do next. My guilds have decided to continue with the several raids we're doing each night, doing two nights of 25 man, one regular TotC and Uld, and one heroic TotC and continuing reg Uld or attempting hard modes in uld as we go. We decided when Ulduar hit which healer was recieving Val'anyr, and the guilds have united to farm Ulduar at the very least until he gets his last 11 shards. Unfortunately, the gear reset causes issues here, because you have people who see easier opportunities to get better gear, and don't want to return to Olduar since they can get shinier purples in less traumatizing places, and then you have others who have used the reset to gear alts, and want to bring characters they rarely play in leu of the mains that would make it a quick easy farm, so you get several people who start looking at instances more as gear checks than mechanics and believe they can do anything because they have a higher item level. This isn't just alts, these are new players as well, people who may not understand their class role or basic fight mechanics who expect something like Ulduar to be cake because it's already been replaced by newer content. I can't make many of my guild raid times, but I dread pugging the new raids, though I've witnessed them being pugged often, for this very reason. I spent long enough learning how not to stand in fire or run through clouds that my patience for someone making entry level mistakes in what should be a progression level raid for most is virtually non-existant. I have no issue with new players or alts in raids, but they need to progress in the same way we did. No the gear isn't as good as the gear you get from badges, and you don't earn badges quite as quickly as you would running 5 mans, but running in a raid teaches you things heroics can't help you with. Healers learn how to trust other healers and how to work together and communicate so that heals and mana don't get wasted. Tanks learn how to work together to taunt from each other or position mobs and bosses. DPS learn when to be moving, when to be close, when to spread out, how to maintain range and not be in the fire or too close to other dps or too far from the healer. It saddens me to go in to TotC 10 and watch my fellow melee dps fumble with the concept of forming a triangle around a boss. Let's go back and kill Kel'Thuzad. You can wear your shiny purples and do your big numbers, just pay a bit of attention too. : I hold myself to the same standard. My playtime at the moment is spent almost entirely leveling alts. My druid main is the only one I sign up on, though I have a pally tank I've done occasional raids on since my druid is currently cat/boom. However the pally started in Naxx and continued doing pieces of Ulduar and then TotC 10. I don't bring her to 25s. I have two healers, a shaman and priest in Naxx25+ and though I'd be willing to bring them if absolutely needed, I feel I'd rather get them through Uld before daring to step foot in TotC. I enjoy that my alts all have the gear to passable in higher level raids, but at the same time there's a learning experience involved in doing various raids, and even though I could probably play any of the toons effectively enough based on gear level and the learning curve (or lack thereof) on reg TotC10, I feel like reacting to and learning the mechanics of Ulduar and Naxx will serve me better in the long run. (And while I'm not raiding I've started a caster druid, so I can bring my main back to offspec tank and play all four pve specs across the two toons. It Is a good time for alts :P) It’s interesting to see what this point in the game means to different people. I’m in a guild that is semi-casual but does progression raiding by partnering with a sister guild. We have raids going most nights of the week, but TotC threw a wrench in our raiding when it first arrived. Our 10-man raids were downing Yogg and working on some hard mode fights, but our 25-man was banging their heads against Yogg’s big ugly inner sanctum. As a guild that’s been around since Vanilla, we had several traditionalists who wanted to finish what we started before moving on, while many other members wanted to leave Yogg behind and move on to TotC. In the end we run several 10 mans, including an alt/funrun Uld 10, Uld10 Hardmode and Algalon attempts, several TotC10s, and a TotC10 heroic. Week before last, we decided to go back in after Yogg (and realized we’d lost the lockout >.<), but this past week we went in and killed him, which has prompted much discussion on our guild forums about what to do next.
My guilds have decided to continue with the several raids we're doing each night, doing two nights of 25 man, one regular TotC and Uld, and one heroic TotC and continuing reg Uld or attempting hard modes in uld as we go. We decided when Ulduar hit which healer was recieving Val'anyr, and the guilds have united to farm Ulduar at the very least until he gets his last 11 shards.
Unfortunately, the gear reset causes issues here, because you have people who see easier opportunities to get better gear, and don't want to return to Olduar since they can get shinier purples in less traumatizing places, and then you have others who have used the reset to gear alts, and want to bring characters they rarely play in leu of the mains that would make it a quick easy farm, so you get several people who start looking at instances more as gear checks than mechanics and believe they can do anything because they have a higher item level. This isn't just alts, these are new players as well, people who may not understand their class role or basic fight mechanics who expect something like Ulduar to be cake because it's already been replaced by newer content.
I can't make many of my guild raid times, but I dread pugging the new raids, though I've witnessed them being pugged often, for this very reason. I spent long enough learning how not to stand in fire or run through clouds that my patience for someone making entry level mistakes in what should be a progression level raid for most is virtually non-existant.
I have no issue with new players or alts in raids, but they need to progress in the same way we did. No the gear isn't as good as the gear you get from badges, and you don't earn badges quite as quickly as you would running 5 mans, but running in a raid teaches you things heroics can't help you with. Healers learn how to trust other healers and how to work together and communicate so that heals and mana don't get wasted. Tanks learn how to work together to taunt from each other or position mobs and bosses. DPS learn when to be moving, when to be close, when to spread out, how to maintain range and not be in the fire or too close to other dps or too far from the healer.
It saddens me to go in to TotC 10 and watch my fellow melee dps fumble with the concept of forming a triangle around a boss. Let's go back and kill Kel'Thuzad. You can wear your shiny purples and do your big numbers, just pay a bit of attention too. :
I hold myself to the same standard. My playtime at the moment is spent almost entirely leveling alts. My druid main is the only one I sign up on, though I have a pally tank I've done occasional raids on since my druid is currently cat/boom. However the pally started in Naxx and continued doing pieces of Ulduar and then TotC 10. I don't bring her to 25s. I have two healers, a shaman and priest in Naxx25+ and though I'd be willing to bring them if absolutely needed, I feel I'd rather get them through Uld before daring to step foot in TotC. I enjoy that my alts all have the gear to passable in higher level raids, but at the same time there's a learning experience involved in doing various raids, and even though I could probably play any of the toons effectively enough based on gear level and the learning curve (or lack thereof) on reg TotC10, I feel like reacting to and learning the mechanics of Ulduar and Naxx will serve me better in the long run.
(And while I'm not raiding I've started a caster druid, so I can bring my main back to offspec tank and play all four pve specs across the two toons. It Is a good time for alts :P)

]]> By: Rob http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-22050 Rob Mon, 02 Nov 2009 05:24:55 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-22050 I'm at an interesting point I think. I have a bunch of 80s, 3 in a horde guild which I co-lead, a tank, healer, and dps. I have a healer in another guild on another server, that I am finally starting to do raids on (took a really long time to find a good guild for my alliance toons). The horde guild is very social and really cares about things like parties and 5 mans. They dont really care about progression raiding. Its a very different midset from the raider guild which is build on progression. And I find it so eternally frustrating that I just can't get the horde guild to run stuff like onyxia, or TOC or something. No they want to do the first 5 bosses in ulduar and naxx. Or HTOC. Give me a break. So anyway for me personally I've gotten all the upgrades I can' reasonabley get on my toons. There are a few things I could get but at this point I dont have any major upgrades. So i am not doing heroics and am waiting until the patch where I plan to run a zillion heroics and get the tier 9 stuff very quickly. I'm also leveling an alt just for kicks (a paly - i swear everyone has a DK, druid or paly these days or all 3). But yeah t this point in the expansion I'm extremely frustrated with my social guild who could do so much more if they put their minds to it. ;( I’m at an interesting point I think. I have a bunch of 80s, 3 in a horde guild which I co-lead, a tank, healer, and dps. I have a healer in another guild on another server, that I am finally starting to do raids on (took a really long time to find a good guild for my alliance toons). The horde guild is very social and really cares about things like parties and 5 mans. They dont really care about progression raiding. Its a very different midset from the raider guild which is build on progression. And I find it so eternally frustrating that I just can’t get the horde guild to run stuff like onyxia, or TOC or something. No they want to do the first 5 bosses in ulduar and naxx. Or HTOC. Give me a break.

So anyway for me personally I’ve gotten all the upgrades I can’ reasonabley get on my toons. There are a few things I could get but at this point I dont have any major upgrades. So i am not doing heroics and am waiting until the patch where I plan to run a zillion heroics and get the tier 9 stuff very quickly. I’m also leveling an alt just for kicks (a paly – i swear everyone has a DK, druid or paly these days or all 3).

But yeah t this point in the expansion I’m extremely frustrated with my social guild who could do so much more if they put their minds to it. ;(

]]> By: pigza http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-22042 pigza Sun, 01 Nov 2009 14:40:06 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-22042 I am at the point where blizz has made me feel like if I dont play my first 80 then i wont be raiding. so many ppl are getting geared from emblems that they dont need to do ulduar or naxx. I have a few 80s now who have never seen ulduar cuzz of the lack of ppl doing it and that irratates me... I am at the point where blizz has made me feel like if I dont play my first 80 then i wont be raiding. so many ppl are getting geared from emblems that they dont need to do ulduar or naxx. I have a few 80s now who have never seen ulduar cuzz of the lack of ppl doing it and that irratates me…

]]> By: Firecroch http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-21985 Firecroch Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:51:57 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-21985 Lets assume that a group goes to Ulduar and spends 2 hrs getting 2 or 3 bosses down. So that earns them about 4-6 conquest badges? Alternatively a group of 5 spends those 2 hrs and knocks out 4 heroics and gets 15-19 conquest badges plus the 2 triumph from the daily. Hmm, less repair bill, more badges, easier runs. I think the vast majority of the people will go the easier route because you get more for less effort. Its for this reason that it makes me sad because I'll never be able to experience this content. Lets assume that a group goes to Ulduar and spends 2 hrs getting 2 or 3 bosses down. So that earns them about 4-6 conquest badges?

Alternatively a group of 5 spends those 2 hrs and knocks out 4 heroics and gets 15-19 conquest badges plus the 2 triumph from the daily.

Hmm, less repair bill, more badges, easier runs. I think the vast majority of the people will go the easier route because you get more for less effort. Its for this reason that it makes me sad because I’ll never be able to experience this content.

]]> By: Dracomage http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-21980 Dracomage Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:14:25 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-21980 Ah Bear I have similar problems. What to do next? I have 2 tanks (paladin, DK), 4 healers (paladin, priest, druid, shammie), 4 DPS (Rogue, Shammie, Druid, Priest). With 3.3 incoming, I am scaling back my "gear upgrade" plans, and focusing on leveling up my remaining alts. I expect with 3.3 and the new LFG and LFR enhancements to the game, to be able to gear up a new 80 in 2-3 weeks to be raid-ready (not Icecrown, but Naxx, Ulduar, etc). Also to get all of them gear-wise ready for assaulting the next 5 levels in Cataclysm. However... your fishing story is making we think about my only fisherman abandoned at skill of 117. I might need to go grab a pole, some bait and see if I can teach my 5year old a new game! .-= Dracomage´s last blog ..<a href="http://dracosdeepthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/10/well-that-was-great.html" rel="nofollow">Well that was great!</a> =-. Ah Bear

I have similar problems. What to do next? I have 2 tanks (paladin, DK), 4 healers (paladin, priest, druid, shammie), 4 DPS (Rogue, Shammie, Druid, Priest). With 3.3 incoming, I am scaling back my “gear upgrade” plans, and focusing on leveling up my remaining alts. I expect with 3.3 and the new LFG and LFR enhancements to the game, to be able to gear up a new 80 in 2-3 weeks to be raid-ready (not Icecrown, but Naxx, Ulduar, etc). Also to get all of them gear-wise ready for assaulting the next 5 levels in Cataclysm.

However… your fishing story is making we think about my only fisherman abandoned at skill of 117. I might need to go grab a pole, some bait and see if I can teach my 5year old a new game!
.-= Dracomage´s last blog ..Well that was great! =-.

]]> By: Kohlea http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-21976 Kohlea Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:30:34 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-21976 I'm in a guild that tends to be in the server top 10 or even top 5 when new content is released. When TotC came out, we were downing the bosses the day they were released. However, as the weeks go by, we settle quite inevitably around 12th to 15th. We're a Finnish only guild and don't have as large a base of players as other guilds have to recruit from. As a result we have a guild where we have both rather hardcore and very casual players. All of us are good at what we do, but our goals are different. It doesn't matter as much when we are first clearing the content but you start to see during these slower periods. The more hardcore players would like to finally down those Northrend Beasts in 25man hard mode, but the more casuals would like to take a break or continue raiding Ulduar. At the moment our "compromise" is to run hard modes in 10man and to have one good day of 25mans (TotC, Ony, VoA) and 2 more days when we may raid Ulduar or not depending on whether we get 20 or 25 names in the calendar. I would like to see these periods as an opportunity to experiment between progress periods. Either to see how far we Can reach in terms of hard modes, even in older instances where the only real gain are the achievements, real and virtual, or to provide an opportunity to temporarily raid on an alt or off spec. There isn't as much pressure to get the guild geared up in the latest content as that's kinda happening on its own now. I'm one of the guild's two main tanks on my druid but at the moment I'm on a break from tanking and raiding as a moonkin instead. I'm not quite providing as much dps as our top dps, but I manage, and I'm pretty sure I'll be better at it in the end of my break. (And I have the badge system to thank for being able to gather a pretty decent balance gear in two or three weeks from scratch) At the same time one of our social members gets a chance to try his hand at main tanking and, if the other officers allow it, one of our balance druids might get to run on his resto shaman. I'm still available if I'm needed for hard modes as opposed to having completely burned out and taken a real break. A win-win situation from my point of view and somewhat undoable in a situation when we're clearing new content. I’m in a guild that tends to be in the server top 10 or even top 5 when new content is released. When TotC came out, we were downing the bosses the day they were released. However, as the weeks go by, we settle quite inevitably around 12th to 15th. We’re a Finnish only guild and don’t have as large a base of players as other guilds have to recruit from. As a result we have a guild where we have both rather hardcore and very casual players. All of us are good at what we do, but our goals are different. It doesn’t matter as much when we are first clearing the content but you start to see during these slower periods.

The more hardcore players would like to finally down those Northrend Beasts in 25man hard mode, but the more casuals would like to take a break or continue raiding Ulduar. At the moment our “compromise” is to run hard modes in 10man and to have one good day of 25mans (TotC, Ony, VoA) and 2 more days when we may raid Ulduar or not depending on whether we get 20 or 25 names in the calendar.

I would like to see these periods as an opportunity to experiment between progress periods. Either to see how far we Can reach in terms of hard modes, even in older instances where the only real gain are the achievements, real and virtual, or to provide an opportunity to temporarily raid on an alt or off spec. There isn’t as much pressure to get the guild geared up in the latest content as that’s kinda happening on its own now.

I’m one of the guild’s two main tanks on my druid but at the moment I’m on a break from tanking and raiding as a moonkin instead. I’m not quite providing as much dps as our top dps, but I manage, and I’m pretty sure I’ll be better at it in the end of my break. (And I have the badge system to thank for being able to gather a pretty decent balance gear in two or three weeks from scratch) At the same time one of our social members gets a chance to try his hand at main tanking and, if the other officers allow it, one of our balance druids might get to run on his resto shaman. I’m still available if I’m needed for hard modes as opposed to having completely burned out and taken a real break. A win-win situation from my point of view and somewhat undoable in a situation when we’re clearing new content.

]]> By: Maell http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-21971 Maell Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:55:29 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-21971 I still run the dailies I've got 30 EoT for my Feral druid but just when I wanted to go and buy the tier shoulders I realised 15 more and I can get the Emblem shoulders which everyone seems to rate higher. So I'm still grinding :-) Since I'm casual player and RL keeps me quite busy (2 kids 2yrs & 4 mnths ol respectively) I'm not nearly bored :-) I'm sorry that I cant really make time for raids, so I love the new system coz It means I will continue to have items to work for and improvements made available without needing to find 3-4hrs for a raid. Without this system I would hit a gear "glass ceiling", run out of upgrades and probably stop playing eventually. So yes skipping raids is an unfortunate side effect, but since I'm not seeing them in any case because of playing time, giving me new shinies in Heroics and new Heroics keeps me going :-) I still run the dailies I’ve got 30 EoT for my Feral druid but just when I wanted to go and buy the tier shoulders I realised 15 more and I can get the Emblem shoulders which everyone seems to rate higher. So I’m still grinding :-)

Since I’m casual player and RL keeps me quite busy (2 kids 2yrs & 4 mnths ol respectively) I’m not nearly bored :-)
I’m sorry that I cant really make time for raids, so I love the new system coz It means I will continue to have items to work for and improvements made available without needing to find 3-4hrs for a raid.

Without this system I would hit a gear “glass ceiling”, run out of upgrades and probably stop playing eventually.
So yes skipping raids is an unfortunate side effect, but since I’m not seeing them in any case because of playing time, giving me new shinies in Heroics and new Heroics keeps me going :-)

]]> By: ukickmydog http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-21966 ukickmydog Fri, 30 Oct 2009 00:16:05 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-21966 i believe that on the aspects of getting all this amazing loot from heroics and it destroying the seance of achievement from boss fights on my druid the guild i was in grinded naxx 10 for a while then in our naxx 10 gear we started doing ulduar 10 and getting better every time because the loot, then when we finaly did do yoggsaron most of us were still in naxx mixed with ulduar 10 gear and that felt like an achievement to me because tbh i was still wearing some hateful gear,but now on my druid still i have just tanked Ony 25 with no problems but at the start of this week i wasn't even geared for naxx 25 but because of the badge system ive just been able to skip over the most of the content tbh i just believe it has gone slightly too far and i believe that in tbc they had it just right =] i believe that on the aspects of getting all this amazing loot from heroics and it destroying the seance of achievement from boss fights on my druid the guild i was in grinded naxx 10 for a while then in our naxx 10 gear we started doing ulduar 10 and getting better every time because the loot, then when we finaly did do yoggsaron most of us were still in naxx mixed with ulduar 10 gear and that felt like an achievement to me because tbh i was still wearing some hateful gear,but now on my druid still i have just tanked Ony 25 with no problems but at the start of this week i wasn’t even geared for naxx 25 but because of the badge system ive just been able to skip over the most of the content tbh i just believe it has gone slightly too far and i believe that in tbc they had it just right =]

]]> By: Solux http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-21965 Solux Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:09:56 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-21965 Thanks to still needing to train a number of guildies, I am spending a lot of time in Ulduar as those of them without the time or the understanding of which Conquest pieces are best for them, Ulduar is a nice point to train in. Many of the fights require a high element of teamwork and if too many people are dying on Beasts, Faction Champs or even Twin Val'kyr, they may need to go back to Ulduar and learn to not die due to avoidable raid damage. A few weeks in Ulduar has got a few people the couple of items they really needed, since as a 10 man only guild, we miss out on a number of important gear slots getting useful upgrades and taught people the value of pushing through and learning boss fights where there's a lot going on, like Hodir or Mimiron. This tends to make them better players and more valuable members of other content and has helped people go from causing Whelp wipes on Ony to oneshotting her every week. Not that Ony is hard, but getting players to be more situationally aware is of great assistance to a raid. Thanks to still needing to train a number of guildies, I am spending a lot of time in Ulduar as those of them without the time or the understanding of which Conquest pieces are best for them, Ulduar is a nice point to train in. Many of the fights require a high element of teamwork and if too many people are dying on Beasts, Faction Champs or even Twin Val’kyr, they may need to go back to Ulduar and learn to not die due to avoidable raid damage.

A few weeks in Ulduar has got a few people the couple of items they really needed, since as a 10 man only guild, we miss out on a number of important gear slots getting useful upgrades and taught people the value of pushing through and learning boss fights where there’s a lot going on, like Hodir or Mimiron. This tends to make them better players and more valuable members of other content and has helped people go from causing Whelp wipes on Ony to oneshotting her every week. Not that Ony is hard, but getting players to be more situationally aware is of great assistance to a raid.

]]> By: Twice http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/10/29/neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-good-red-herring/comment-page-1/#comment-21963 Twice Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:06:14 +0000 http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2265#comment-21963 I run the dailies faithfully on my main, and then I take a break and go do something mindless. I have a couple of Triumph pieces I really want, but at the same time I'm enjoying a break form really focusing on Heroics. Been going back and picking up the Classic instance content that I missed or skipped on my 80s and helping out a couple of guildies by bringing them along. It's fun and relaxing just cruising along and chatting as boss drop after boss drop gets sharded 'cause everyone is in BoA stuff. I run the dailies faithfully on my main, and then I take a break and go do something mindless. I have a couple of Triumph pieces I really want, but at the same time I’m enjoying a break form really focusing on Heroics.

Been going back and picking up the Classic instance content that I missed or skipped on my 80s and helping out a couple of guildies by bringing them along. It’s fun and relaxing just cruising along and chatting as boss drop after boss drop gets sharded ’cause everyone is in BoA stuff.

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