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	<title>Comments on: There&#8217;s a fine line between art and nonsense</title>
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	<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/</link>
	<description>Feral Druids in World of Warcraft</description>
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		<title>By: Boobah</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22478</link>
		<dc:creator>Boobah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2365#comment-22478</guid>
		<description>On &lt;i&gt;Kate &amp; Leopold:&lt;/i&gt; I knew to turn off higher brain functions when the presenter in 1876 started talking about space/time.  Eighteen-&lt;i&gt;freakin&#039;&lt;/i&gt;-seventy-six.  Yeah.  I suspect he got that wrong, too, but I was too busy nerdraging over a guy addressing a crowd in 19th century America assuming familiarity with a controversial and revolutionary theory from the 20th.

On bad time travel, another way to go wrong is to have events mutable, but for it to be impossible for things to have gone wrong without having first, well, gone wrong.  &lt;i&gt;Star Trek: Voyager,&lt;/i&gt; that paragon of bad scifi writing, has my favorite example:

The &lt;i&gt;Voyager&lt;/i&gt; comes across a devastated planet, and since everybody&#039;s dead they can take a look-see without going all Prime Directive at the natives.  A first look tells them that, strangely, Federation technology was involved in the disaster.  The away team goes down, plays with the anomaly that made things go boom, and end up in the planet&#039;s past, just before the boom happened.  Wacky hijinks ensue, and the folks stuck in the past eventually realize that what they were about to do to get back is what caused the population&#039;s destruction, don&#039;t do it, and time resets.  Epilogue: &lt;i&gt;Voyager&lt;/i&gt; spots a pre-interstellar culture, invokes the Prime Directive, and continues on its merry way.

Yes, that&#039;s right.  They only went to the planet because... in an earlier loop they went to the planet.  Which if they hadn&#039;t gone to, they&#039;d never go to.  Yeah.  Another example of &lt;i&gt;ST: Voyager&lt;/i&gt;&#039;s favorite early plot: wring your hands over a horrible problem, wait fifty minutes doing nothing effective about it, and discover that the horrible problem wasn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On <i>Kate &amp; Leopold:</i> I knew to turn off higher brain functions when the presenter in 1876 started talking about space/time.  Eighteen-<i>freakin&#8217;</i>-seventy-six.  Yeah.  I suspect he got that wrong, too, but I was too busy nerdraging over a guy addressing a crowd in 19th century America assuming familiarity with a controversial and revolutionary theory from the 20th.</p>
<p>On bad time travel, another way to go wrong is to have events mutable, but for it to be impossible for things to have gone wrong without having first, well, gone wrong.  <i>Star Trek: Voyager,</i> that paragon of bad scifi writing, has my favorite example:</p>
<p>The <i>Voyager</i> comes across a devastated planet, and since everybody&#8217;s dead they can take a look-see without going all Prime Directive at the natives.  A first look tells them that, strangely, Federation technology was involved in the disaster.  The away team goes down, plays with the anomaly that made things go boom, and end up in the planet&#8217;s past, just before the boom happened.  Wacky hijinks ensue, and the folks stuck in the past eventually realize that what they were about to do to get back is what caused the population&#8217;s destruction, don&#8217;t do it, and time resets.  Epilogue: <i>Voyager</i> spots a pre-interstellar culture, invokes the Prime Directive, and continues on its merry way.</p>
<p>Yes, that&#8217;s right.  They only went to the planet because&#8230; in an earlier loop they went to the planet.  Which if they hadn&#8217;t gone to, they&#8217;d never go to.  Yeah.  Another example of <i>ST: Voyager</i>&#8217;s favorite early plot: wring your hands over a horrible problem, wait fifty minutes doing nothing effective about it, and discover that the horrible problem wasn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Mannyac</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22460</link>
		<dc:creator>Mannyac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2365#comment-22460</guid>
		<description>As BBB will tell you B5 is my favorite SciFi..period. One of the things I enjoyed was the rationality of the technologies involved. Sure there were a few oooweeeooo moments but the time travel, weaponry and ship tech was very believable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As BBB will tell you B5 is my favorite SciFi..period. One of the things I enjoyed was the rationality of the technologies involved. Sure there were a few oooweeeooo moments but the time travel, weaponry and ship tech was very believable.</p>
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		<title>By: dorgol</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22459</link>
		<dc:creator>dorgol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2365#comment-22459</guid>
		<description>&quot;The Guns of the South&quot; was great.
&quot;Pastwatch - The Redemption of Christopher Columbus&quot; was also great, and even dealt with how to &quot;prove&quot; OTHER time travelers existed.

My wife gets frsutrated when TT stories come up. She starts overthinking the &quot;if XX didn&#039;t happen, then why would ZZ have gone back in time to change AA&quot;? I&#039;ve tried to walk her through it, but no luck so far.

I think one of the best uses of TT in television was in Babylon 5. First &quot;something&quot; moves backwards in time. Years later our heroes are &lt;i&gt;responisble&lt;/i&gt; for that something moving in time. Only to discover that it had all happened already (in a predestination type situation). In fact, some of the most important parts of Babylon 5&#039;s history only exists BECAUSE of the TT. Very well done, and very cohesively told.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The Guns of the South&#8221; was great.<br />
&#8220;Pastwatch &#8211; The Redemption of Christopher Columbus&#8221; was also great, and even dealt with how to &#8220;prove&#8221; OTHER time travelers existed.</p>
<p>My wife gets frsutrated when TT stories come up. She starts overthinking the &#8220;if XX didn&#8217;t happen, then why would ZZ have gone back in time to change AA&#8221;? I&#8217;ve tried to walk her through it, but no luck so far.</p>
<p>I think one of the best uses of TT in television was in Babylon 5. First &#8220;something&#8221; moves backwards in time. Years later our heroes are <i>responisble</i> for that something moving in time. Only to discover that it had all happened already (in a predestination type situation). In fact, some of the most important parts of Babylon 5&#8217;s history only exists BECAUSE of the TT. Very well done, and very cohesively told.</p>
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		<title>By: Tufva</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22458</link>
		<dc:creator>Tufva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2365#comment-22458</guid>
		<description>I wanted to love Kate &amp; Leopold so much. I am a sucker for rom coms with a bit of a fantasy twist (Enchanted anyone?) and who doesn&#039;t love Hugh Jackman? I didn&#039;t spot the time travel plot hole as I spent the entire movie fuming at Meg Ryan&#039;s character being such a nasty piece of work as well as wondering how on earth such a lovely guy as Leopold could be even vaguely interested in her. I guess I look at different plot holes... :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wanted to love Kate &amp; Leopold so much. I am a sucker for rom coms with a bit of a fantasy twist (Enchanted anyone?) and who doesn&#8217;t love Hugh Jackman? I didn&#8217;t spot the time travel plot hole as I spent the entire movie fuming at Meg Ryan&#8217;s character being such a nasty piece of work as well as wondering how on earth such a lovely guy as Leopold could be even vaguely interested in her. I guess I look at different plot holes&#8230; :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Elegantdeath</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22456</link>
		<dc:creator>Elegantdeath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2365#comment-22456</guid>
		<description>Superb article and great examples.  I enjoy reading &amp; watching Sci-Fi (guess it&#039;s now SciPhy... lol) and have the same &#039;logical&#039; response to visually fill in the pieces.  I get really pissed-off when I get into something that is loaded with inconsistancies that are merely there to fit the story... that&#039;s just plain lazy shit.  I mean... you invest so much time in a book or show and then, &quot;wtf?.... no.... those lazy f&#039;ers&quot;... My wife will tell me &quot;it&#039;s only a movie&quot; as my pissed-off meter is at max (I get heated, honestly).  Even worse is when a TV series you kind of get into goes on laze... ugh, I&#039;ve watched 12 - 15 episodes... these people act a certain way and science/magic behaves a certain way... then &quot;bam&quot;... you get screwed by lazy writing.

Ah, rant over.  See you guys online.

Lol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Superb article and great examples.  I enjoy reading &amp; watching Sci-Fi (guess it&#8217;s now SciPhy&#8230; lol) and have the same &#8216;logical&#8217; response to visually fill in the pieces.  I get really pissed-off when I get into something that is loaded with inconsistancies that are merely there to fit the story&#8230; that&#8217;s just plain lazy shit.  I mean&#8230; you invest so much time in a book or show and then, &#8220;wtf?&#8230;. no&#8230;. those lazy f&#8217;ers&#8221;&#8230; My wife will tell me &#8220;it&#8217;s only a movie&#8221; as my pissed-off meter is at max (I get heated, honestly).  Even worse is when a TV series you kind of get into goes on laze&#8230; ugh, I&#8217;ve watched 12 &#8211; 15 episodes&#8230; these people act a certain way and science/magic behaves a certain way&#8230; then &#8220;bam&#8221;&#8230; you get screwed by lazy writing.</p>
<p>Ah, rant over.  See you guys online.</p>
<p>Lol.</p>
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		<title>By: gmazeroth</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22455</link>
		<dc:creator>gmazeroth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2365#comment-22455</guid>
		<description>Very fun read.  I myself always have issues with how movies books and shows do time travel.  When it&#039;s done badly, it&#039;s really evident.  Of course, I never caught the inconsistency thing in Kate and Leopold.  If I remember correctly, I thought that elevators were just breaking, not disappearing... which might fall under the &quot;taking time&quot; while people notice a difference.

Oh, and when you mentioned time travel and Jack the Ripper, I immediately thought of the Time Scout series by Robert Asprin and Linda Evans.  From what I remember when I read it, time travel was again through set portals, but nobody knew where a portal went until you&#039;d been through it, and you could never occupy the same time as another version of yourself.  If you did, you just went poof.  i.e. if I went through one portal to April 1st, 1981, and then came back to the present, and then later took a portal to March 31st, 1981 and stayed for more than a day, I would cease to exist at the point my past self entered the past for the first time.  Paradox was not allowed. Anyway, I recommend the series.

Time Scout series

    * Time Scout (1995)
    * Wagers of Sin (1995)
    * Ripping Time (2000)
    * The House that Jack Built (2000)
.-= gmazeroth&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/GoodMorningAzeroth/~3/K9AO5okIsf4/hallowes-end-ball.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Hallow&#039;s End Ball&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very fun read.  I myself always have issues with how movies books and shows do time travel.  When it&#8217;s done badly, it&#8217;s really evident.  Of course, I never caught the inconsistency thing in Kate and Leopold.  If I remember correctly, I thought that elevators were just breaking, not disappearing&#8230; which might fall under the &#8220;taking time&#8221; while people notice a difference.</p>
<p>Oh, and when you mentioned time travel and Jack the Ripper, I immediately thought of the Time Scout series by Robert Asprin and Linda Evans.  From what I remember when I read it, time travel was again through set portals, but nobody knew where a portal went until you&#8217;d been through it, and you could never occupy the same time as another version of yourself.  If you did, you just went poof.  i.e. if I went through one portal to April 1st, 1981, and then came back to the present, and then later took a portal to March 31st, 1981 and stayed for more than a day, I would cease to exist at the point my past self entered the past for the first time.  Paradox was not allowed. Anyway, I recommend the series.</p>
<p>Time Scout series</p>
<p>    * Time Scout (1995)<br />
    * Wagers of Sin (1995)<br />
    * Ripping Time (2000)<br />
    * The House that Jack Built (2000)<br />
<span class="cluv"> gmazeroth&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/GoodMorningAzeroth/~3/K9AO5okIsf4/hallowes-end-ball.html" rel="nofollow">Hallow&#8217;s End Ball</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://thebigbearbutt.com/wordpress/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Ratshag</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22454</link>
		<dc:creator>Ratshag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2365#comment-22454</guid>
		<description>The best story I&#039;ve ever read about time travel was Connie Willis&#039; &quot;To Say Nothing of the Dog&quot;. It&#039;s a light-hearted story a 21st century historians stuck in Victorian England, with all it&#039;s quirkiness. And oh yeah, he accidently prevented Boy X from meeting Girl Y, which means the Germans will win World War II unless he and his partner can make them fall in love. The physics are very detailed and well thought out, and the dog is awesome.

She has another time-travel story, &quot;The Doomsday Book&quot;, which I also recommend. Here though the time travel is only minor part of the story, with global pandemics being the main focus. Much less light-hearted, what with the Black Death and all, but still an excellent story.
.-= Ratshag&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://needmorerage.blogspot.com/2009/10/gone-fishin.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gone Fishin&#039;&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best story I&#8217;ve ever read about time travel was Connie Willis&#8217; &#8220;To Say Nothing of the Dog&#8221;. It&#8217;s a light-hearted story a 21st century historians stuck in Victorian England, with all it&#8217;s quirkiness. And oh yeah, he accidently prevented Boy X from meeting Girl Y, which means the Germans will win World War II unless he and his partner can make them fall in love. The physics are very detailed and well thought out, and the dog is awesome.</p>
<p>She has another time-travel story, &#8220;The Doomsday Book&#8221;, which I also recommend. Here though the time travel is only minor part of the story, with global pandemics being the main focus. Much less light-hearted, what with the Black Death and all, but still an excellent story.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Ratshag&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://needmorerage.blogspot.com/2009/10/gone-fishin.html" rel="nofollow">Gone Fishin&#8217;</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://thebigbearbutt.com/wordpress/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Wavemancali</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22453</link>
		<dc:creator>Wavemancali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>D&#039;oh by Orson Scott Card if you were wondering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D&#8217;oh by Orson Scott Card if you were wondering.</p>
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		<title>By: Wavemancali</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22452</link>
		<dc:creator>Wavemancali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=2365#comment-22452</guid>
		<description>One of my favorite time travel books was &lt;i&gt;Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus&lt;/i&gt;

I heartily recommend it if you like time travel stories.

I have 2 separate time travel stories rolling around in my head that I will eventually write.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my favorite time travel books was <i>Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus</i></p>
<p>I heartily recommend it if you like time travel stories.</p>
<p>I have 2 separate time travel stories rolling around in my head that I will eventually write.</p>
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		<title>By: honorshammer</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/11/13/theres-a-fine-line-between-art-and-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-22451</link>
		<dc:creator>honorshammer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Don&#039;t over think Kate and Leopold, it&#039;s a decent flick. Sit back and enjoy with your significant other and then enjoy the brownie points for watching a chick flick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t over think Kate and Leopold, it&#8217;s a decent flick. Sit back and enjoy with your significant other and then enjoy the brownie points for watching a chick flick.</p>
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