Yeah, that’s right. I said “You people”.

Now, maybe you ain’t one of the actual people that make me bugnuts. Chances are, if you’re on a blog looking for advice, and it’s a blog that pretends to mostly talk about tanking, maybe, just maybe, you’re open to suggestions or are looking to improve your tanking skills.

If you are, God bless you.

You’re free to climb out of the bucket. Provisionally.

But holy shit!

Or, as Cassie said this last weekend, “Okay, all the morons and stupid little children are home from school for the holidays. Time to stop pugging.”

I had heard… I’d even sometimes seen… but never, never had I imagined the complete and absolute collapse of skill and sense in PUGs like what we dealt with last weekend.

Holy shit.

Just… how the hell? I’m not even talking about a single person, or people from all one guild, or even people from just one server. I’m sure we all expect to run into the oblivious on occasion. 

I mean an endless perfect storm of jerkwads.

Here is the worst run that I stayed in. I left more than a few that were just incredible fails of blamefests, but I stayed in this one, and it was amazing to the end. In a “surely at some point things will change, and I want to be there when it happens” kind of way.

Complete random PUG, zoned into Nexus, and I was queued as Healer.

I actually prefer to tank, I really do, but if I’m going to tank, I like to know who my healer is. So, usually in a pure 100% PUG I’ll go as heals.

I like to think that, hey, things may suck, but at least I know there will be good heals. Elitist? Arrogant? Sure, I’ll own that. All I know is I’ve carried some pretty amazing failpugs just by overhealing idiots that think Rogues can consistently Tank, and Hunters that don’t know what Feign Death is.

Sadly, I’ve also run in failpugs where I felt grateful that our Rogue COULD tank, because the actual tank was just a complete… no, let’s not go there.

But this one… I’m there as heals, and we zone in, it’s Nexus.

The tank instantly leaves.

You’re queued as a tank and you bail on Nexus? What a lazy prick. If you want something specific, queue for something specific. If you just don’t like Nexus… come on, the instance takes less time to run than the deserter debuff does to wear off.

And if you bail, it better not be out of fear… they don’t GET much easier than Nexus.

Anyway, we try for more, and I see that the Priest is queueing as Heals/DPS.

So I say, and hold onto your laughter, I say “I’ll tell you what. It’s easier to fill DPS. I’ll tank if you switch to heals.”

“ok”.

Off we go.

It’s a bit slow, but we do the first few pulls and it’s okay. My only initial concern is, I notice that we’ve got two melee DPS, and both are running up to stand next to me to fight. Not behind the enemy, but right next to me in the enemy’s face.

I politely, gently, quite considerately suggest that if they move behind the mobs to DPS, then the mobs can’t Parry their attacks, and their damage will go up.

Both of them are from different servers. Both of them are melee. Neither of them ever acknowledge I said anything, and neither ever moves behind the mobs. The whole run.

This sets the pace for the entire run.

  • Nobody kills the targets I assign.
  • Nobody moves behind the mobs if melee.
  • Nobody gets out of Whirlwind on the first boss.
  • Nobody kills the Portals but me.
  • Nobody gets out of the ice spikes but me.
  • Nobody moves to remove the cold debuff but me.

I offer advice, suggestions, they all fall on deaf eyes. They do nothing whatsover but spam buttons, move as little as possible, and get carried by me and the healer. The healer, who increasingly through the run is getting bitchy from healing people who are making no effort whatsoever to do things… well, as if they gave a shit.

At the end of the run, boss dead, longest damn Anomalous fight I’ve ever seen (since I’m the only bastard killing portals)….

And the DPS of the group is like this;

  • 2100+ DPS Me (the tank)
  • 1000 DPS
  • 1000 DPS
  • 900+ DPS
  • 125 DPS (healer)

Now, I have no problem with people having low DPS. As I said before, you don’t get much easier than Nexus. If you’re looking to learn how to play as a newly dinged 80, then Nexus is the place to be.

But if you are a brand new level 80 looking to play as DPS… what in the name of all that’s holy brings you to just completely phone in your gameplay? If you have no intention of making an effort, or paying any attention to the rest of the group, why are you even here?

Just flat out refused to get behind the mobs. As though I were somehow lying about the effects of Dodge. And ignoring kill order… not as if I ever had to worry about them pulling aggro, but it sure would have been nice if there was some focused DPS so that the mobs went down a little faster. You know, like the ones that can heal?

Sure, I know people are too leet to think that kill targets should apply to them, even after I ask that they follow my kill order. And I suppose that people are too special to listen to the advice of anyone else, like kill portals first, even when they’ve got a little skull on top, because hey, who the hell am I as the tank to tell other people what to do? I should keep my mouth zipped and be a nice little Mangle-bot.

But if you are so damn special you need to go do your own thing and to hell with everyone else…

If you really do know everything already…

At least cough up more than 900 DPS. Just sayin’.

Okay, now that I got that out of my system, here’s the real frustration from the weekend.

An ever growing tendency for tanks to cop an attitude.

Now, this probably sounds hilarious after the attitude I, the tank, just displayed on the blog. Bear with me a moment.

I’m serious. I don’t mean a nice ‘take charge and git ‘er done’ kind of thing that in bad lighting might be mistaken for leadership, I mean a pissy little 8 year old elitist prick kind of thing.

Tanks that can’t hold aggro, refuse to mark targets, pull too much stuff and don’t actually aggro any of it except their one main target and let the others run off willy nilly on everyone else… and then type all in caps “omigod the dps sux, healer u sux, piss off losers” and leaves group.

Or get into arguments, I kid you not, over who did what. And refuse to go further until they’ve blamed someone else for whatever it is. 

I never thought I’d see the day when a group degenerated into “Did you pull those mobs?” “No, you did!” “Did not!” Did so!”

Example; After Ick in Heroic Pit of Saron, those two groups of mobs heading up the hill with the Flamewraiths. Tank, no marks, no attempts at holding aggro on multiple spellcasters, just runs and guns into the center mob. Has no aggro on half the mobs, mobs run free, both Flamers are bursting, party wipes. Second shot, same as the first, party wipes. Third shot, same as the first, but the second group farther up the hill also gets pulled. Group wipes.

Tank stops dead, and begins to demand to know who pulled the other group. “Allright, who pulled that group? Who was it? I want to know who it was!”

Can someone tell me what earthly difference it makes? The tank is incompetent, and hasn’t attempted to change his style yet, so who cares if the second group was pulled or not?

Rogue says, “I dunno, maybe it was my Fan of Knives.”

Tank chews the Rogue out. Chews. The. Rogue. Out.

Next time, tank doesn’t do any different, but the DPS all focus on the Flamewraiths and then the main mob that chain casts Deathbolts, they basically get it done despite the tank.

Are you kidding me?

What next?

“I won’t tank this group unless everyone likes country music same as me.”
“I like country.”
“Me too, let’s go.”
“Wait, hey you, Hunter, what kind of country do you like?”
“Chris LeDoux rodeo style.”
“That ain’t the right kind of country for me, I vote to kick the hunter.”

Are we in high school now? WTF?!?

Cassie is doing Oculus. She’s grown to like Oculus. No, really, I kid her over it, but it’s true.

On the final dragon fight, flying high overhead, her group wipes.

The tank begins demanding to know who had a ten stack up on the boss and never triggered their ability to consume it. There were three yellow drakes on the run, Cassie on one of them. She prefers the yellow, she likes them and knows them well.

Me, I like green. Dot dot dot….

I kid you not, the tank (on a red drake) demands to know which yellow didn’t trigger their ten stack. He’s adamant, he saw a ten stack up and unconsumed, and by God, and he’s not going any further until he knows who it was!

And the DPS cater to this little tantrum, by chiming in saying, “Well I used MY ability, it wasn’t me!” “Well, I know I used MY ability, it wasn’t me either!”

Cassie, actually being an adult, isn’t even acknowledging this complete loserfest.

So the tank announces, “It must have been Cass then!”

The logic for this, apparently, being that she didn’t defend herself, so she must be guilty, and hanging her head in shame before the monitor.

The others gang up on Cass. “Yeah, it must have been Cass. You suck, noob.”

Are you really serious? 

In her second random heroic of the day, she got TOC.

The group mounts up and the talking starts.

The tank yells, ”Geez, you did the long intro, you noob.” 

An argument immediately breaks out. Can you guess why?

The argument follows;

“I did not, I wasn’t even near the guy.”
“Wasn’t me, must have been player x.”
“Nope, wasn’t me, must have been Cass.” (who again was not participating in the argument).

This time she lost her patience for this type of behavior, informed them they were acting like children, and left the party.

These are stories not meant to showcase two individual runs, but to serve as an example of what I’m seeing in more groups in general, and with the tanks in particular lately… rude little pricks.

Tanks especially, the short group wait time seriously seems to be causing some of them to think their shit doesn’t stink.

That they really are, somehow, more important than, or more special than, other players.

If that’s you, this is your wakeup call.

I don’t give a good goddamn who you THINK you are, what your gearscore is, how short a wait you get, or if you think that the groups all revolve around your tiniest whim and if you are the slightest bit displeased, somebody better start soothing your ruffled feathers or you shall no longer grace the group with the awesomesauce of your presence.

If you really think that, as the tank, you deserve to have your ass kissed by the rest of the party if they expect to do a run, then I’ve got startling news for you, sister mary sunshine. And it’s NOT that you can save money by switching to Geico.

You deserve the same politeness and consideration as every other player that pays their money to play. No more, and no less.

If you’re going to be a dick right out of the starting gate, then you deserve much less.

I surely hope that this is a blip on the bubble. I hope that this is not indicative of a growing trend, and we’re going to see a lot more of this.

I’ll be the first to say, if you don’t like the people you meet in PUGs, then don’t pug.

But on the other hand, there are lots of great people that I know are out there, and if you don’t pug, you’ll never see them. I’d hate to have that happen.

Just yesterday, I had a great pug.

I had the best pug of the weekend when I healed a Culling of Strat with 3 people from my own server, strangers, from a guild named Vampires.

They were very, very good, and very, very nice.

The fact that we had a hunter that was afk 75% of the instance only shows how crappy the other pugs were that this one was my best, and also shows that just because one person is an idiot, it doesn’t mean the rest of the party should necessarily suffer for it. We four-personed most of the run, and it went well. Got the extra boss, etcetera. Joked a little. Good times.

I just hope, I really hope that things will return to a more polite, considerate feel. Or that the weekend was, as Cassie suggested, a fluke based on the holiday break.

We all play WoW. This should be something that serves to pull us together against the outsiders that think we’re crazy. We start stabbing each other verbally out of general pissyness, and things are going to get a whole lot uglier.

Regardless, Gabriel and his Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory does seem to feel more like a proven law than a theory at this point.

48 Responses to “You people make me bugnuts”
  1. kaozz says:

    I only pug with my own tank for the most part and I heal. I just get so tired of morons. Mostly, if we can, we grab people from our server and random one dps, it cuts down on the chance we get an idiot but sometimes it still happens. Some nights we end up with three other puggers if nobody we know is on. There are a lot of rude people and I’ve decided I’d rather not deal with them.

    I like my tank to pull, the other night we had a dps running in (nexus ha!) ahead of the group almost dying before we got there, I asked them to stop. They pulled the first boss, almost died again. I once again asked them to quit pulling. They didn’t so I quit healing them. Then they decided to not dps. If you can’t do your part, why should I? So I asked them if they were ready to participate as a group. They made fun of this and that. So I told them “You’re so great? You tank and heal, I could do this but I’m not dealing with you. The group can thank YOU for having no healer”, and I left. My tank left after. I would have voted to kick them but.. it wouldn’t let me for some silly reason.

    I won’t deal with idiots. I put them in their place, or I leave. If people are nice and they are not so good I do try to be understanding but as you pointed out, most of them don’t try to listen or work as a team OR they just throw insults all over the place.
    .-= kaozz´s last blog ..New Toys (WoW, FR) =-.

  2. Vanis says:

    Had similar sort of things happen. I’m on my Lock alt. Queued for a random, after about a 10 minute wait I’m in.
    Me: “Hey guys! Merry Xmas!” (thinking that might as well start off on a positive note)
    Two others: “Merry Xmas!”
    Tank: “It’s Christmas, not Xmas”
    Me: (figuring I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he’s a serious Christian) “You’re right, I’m a lazy typer sometimes”
    Tank: ” If u r too lazy to type Christmas u don’t deserve to breathe” (Yes he did use the U and U R, which was rather ironic given his message)
    Me: “Ah. Bye guys!” (ports out, will live with the deserter debuff, added tank to my ignore list)

    Mostly shocked that someone thinks that is in any way acceptable.

  3. Copey says:

    I have a theory about how this is all going to play out. Experienced tanks, healers, and dps are going to get all the triumph badges they need for all specs they want to gear out in T9. When finished with that in another few weeks or so, maybe another month, they are going to stop running so many heroics with the LFG tool. It will not be worth the trouble. That is going to leave two types of people running it most of the time: People new to heroics that never really were into Min/Maxing for PVE content, and people who are raiders that are gearing up an alt and feel like they do things the “correct” way.

    Wow is such a large game that there is no real “correct” way. But there is a way to do things that gets it done faster, that doesn’t force people to carry you, that doesn’t make you hated by your fellow man. When this time comes I foresee matters in the “LFG Bonanza” getting worse. The first mistake you make that shows you don’t know your class, or don’t know how to research, or don’t have a main that’s done it all before will result in nastiness.

    Show up as a hunter with 71 points in BM and several gems missing? Vote kick. Show up as a tank with less than 30k health? Vote kick. And if that doesn’t happen, that little group is going to roll into a heroic, and not know the fights. Because seriously…who cares about fight dynamics when you out gear the boss by 4 tiers of gear? All these new people to heroics are not learning the fights right now, just spamming buttons and collecting loot. But in the not so distant future the people that know what they are doing either won’t be running them, or they won’t want to run them with people that don’t know what to do.

    When the dust settles down and the shiny wears off the LFG tool will turn into the new way to abuse others. What I’m saying is, pretty soon the LFG button will be like purposely going to the barrens and reading everything that is said there, while pounding your head into your desk and slamming your hand with a hammer…all at the same time.

    I hope it doesn’t do this, but I’ve had some bad experiences with random pugs lately, and they are getting more abundant. I’m hoping to get my hunter geared up before it all comes crashing down, but I just don’t know if it will happen.

  4. Sarai says:

    For some reason, my human death knight tank/dps hasn’t run into any really bad PUGs. Not saying they’ve all been rosy, but nothing like what you’ve described here.

    On the other hand, my troll hunter has been in nothing but fail-PUGs from the start. Everything from healers that don’t res people, to people randomly leaving after a wipe (or just a single player death). And the fact that he keeps getting into groups that have half-completed the instance doesn’t help either. It’s been bad enough that I’ve shelved him for now, hoping that maybe in a few weeks things might get better. And if not, well, I’ve been considering a server transfer anyway.
    .-= Sarai´s last blog ..Uugghh…. =-.

  5. Eluniar says:

    Not been to unlucky with groups to be honest. Had two Occulus groups disband as people left as soon as we zoned in today (do people think its hard?). The other day I was in the Culling of Stratholme and it was a group of 4 guildies and me, one was AFK the entire time and his guildies had obviously agreed to let him stay on follow for free emblems and that annoyed me (may not annoy others I guess) as I couldnt vote kick him and get a DPS who would actually play.

    I had a pretty awful pug into Razorfen Kraul yesterday on my Paladin. I put myself in as tank to get a nice quick group, as the group formed said my helloes and asked people to nuke the skull. No one did nuke the skull, the Warrior there to dps was using a shield and 1h sword and specced prot for “fun” and the Priest I kid you not wasnt using spells he was just auto attacking. I asked both of them calmly three times to A) Use a two handed sword or at the very least stop using Thunderclap as soon as i pulled and B) Use spells. They ignored me saying it was going fine. I apologized to the two players playing well and left.

    These are my worst experiences and dont compare to yours. Im generally not tolerant of as you say “Rude little pricks” and I dont vote kick unless there is a good reason (AFKing through COT for example).

  6. Erthshade says:

    Sounds like one of the pugs I tanked back in BC. I was still beartanking and a bit overgeared for heroics thanks to some Kara and badge loot, but there were still some things I wanted for my dps set and I still wasn’t exalted with some places. The pug was terrible, didn’t pay attention to the marks, didn’t CC anything, and like in yours, often dpsed from the wrong place. We only pulled through because it was an easy heroic and the healer was good about keeping my big butt healthy. At the end one of the dps had the audacity to say ‘good group’, to which I could only respond, “No… no, not really.”

    I admit to trying to take charge during pugs if I’m tanking. I’ve gotten several dps that complain I’m going too slow. Usually I tell them they should have queued as tank if they wanted to control the speed and they shut up. Had one boomkin during a HoS run who made this complaint (after wiping us by pulling Krystallus with Starfall early in the wing). I told him to go ahead, and stopped moving. He then started whining that I should stop kidding around. This was the same run the paladin healer went to ninja the saronite nodes in the middle of pulls. Both made it onto my ignore list so I wouldn’t have to deal with their jerkassery again, the first and only two to do so thus far since cross-server LFG.

    But there are some people who can take direction well. I was pugging a random yesterday on my warrior with the priest alt of the guild’s main mage, and we got CoS. One of the people we picked up was another mage, who was apparently just starting, as she had mostly blues in the 187 range with one epic IIRC. After a couple bosses the priest starts tentatively suggesting some changes to the mage’s rotation. The mage’s dps jumps on the third boss, she thanks him and we find out she’s the alt of a priest healer main, so they swap some more tips and everything’s good.

  7. Gea says:

    At first I was sooo excited about the new LFG system. At last, no more endless hours LF a healer or whatever. Everything is automated. And the buffet of players now is much larger since we got many servers joined together. After a while though, I got pulled hard and crash-landed to reality. These not-know-you-will-never-seeya-again kinda groups allow for maximum rudeness, noobeness and beingadickness! Before 3.3 I would never just abandon a group like that because it was never as impossible to communicate people as it is now, and that makes sense… Cause u r just one in the crowd for the other guy and why should he care? You are not a player of his server that can ignore him or be the reason he will not be invited in a group in the future by letting the others know what kind of dick he is. So that is what he becomes… Big time!
    I used to have a MM hunter and always my main concern, besides my dps no. :-p, was not to pull aggro from the tank cause I knew that especially in a not fully epic group this could mean wipe! I learned to use feign death, to /assist the tank and use OMEN to always watch my aggro and always but always respect marks.
    Now I am the tank with my dear Black Bear druid. But alas! things have changed and although I am marking, I say no pulling, I try my best, I see people attacking X before Skull, trying to outThreat me like its a race or like they have never heard of the word Aggro again and running up and pulling out of the blue while I still have 0 rage and the healer is OOM!
    Plz Blizz put a dick/noob scanner in the LFG-tool

    PS today i PUGed with a group where i was 2nd DPS by like 50 and the lowest Dps was around 800+. And was running random heroics! I mean what if he had got Halls of Reflection instead of Gundrak?!!

  8. Dechion says:

    Sorry Bear, it’s all my fault.

    I wasn’t online to absorb all the fail pugs and you seem to have stumbled into my streak of luck.
    .-= Dechion´s last blog ..Starter gear for a Death Knight tank =-.

  9. Jack says:

    My experiences with LFG have been great. I mean, with some abberations . . . but definitely abberations and almost always manageable.

    The warrior in BRD that was needing everything. First drop was leather shoulders . . . but he was dps and it was STR,AGI,STA gear so maybe, right? Second was a cloth belt with spell power. Vote to kick, vote passed, move on. Or the hunter with bad pet control . . . the rest of the group was awesome enough to work through it. I honestly think it must have just been a kid who didn’t know what it meant to “keep your pet on passive”. I mean, he had to ask what AoE meant when we got to the Lyceum. And he’d been Volleying the whole instance.

    I’ve had a few tanks that moved faster than I liked, but were generally polite about, “I’m here to get to the end, and I’m setting the pace.” And they were always capable tanks. Most tanks, even if they didn’t take time to mark, at least took time to check everyone’s mana. Erthshade, “I told him to go ahead. And stopped moving.” made me lol for real. That was awesome.

    The less capable tanks have always gone slowly and were open to suggestions. I’ve only run into one primadonna tank, who when the mage asked, “how’s my dps in frost?” responded, “not as pathetic as the druid & hunters.” What surprised me more, though, was when I told him to f*** off, I was told by the healer to play nice.

    I am amazed at how at how many times I’ve run BRD, as huge and open ended as it is, and only once did the group degenerate into any serious disagreement about which way to go. I mean, sometimes I’ve been disappointed that we only hit the Interrogator and broke up, but everyone generally agrees to follow the tank, or if the tank doesn’t know the instance, follow the person the tank defers to for directions. And most of the time, everyone is hip to clear as much as possible.

    More often than actual “bad” experiences, I’ve had “people trying to learn” experiences. Like the tank who looked like he had to search his toolbar for Consecration every pull. Nice enough guy . . . it just meant I hold off on Hurricane, maybe put faerie fire on every mob in the group. And if I did pull aggro, I had to figure out where I put Barkskin & Nature’s grasp, ’cause the tank sure wasn’t gonna’ save my feathery butt. Or the time in Old Kingdom when, in the room full of cultists & elementals, we had a bad pull with multiple fire novas on the ground (which, you know, it’s a busy room, it happens) and no one moved out of them. As we ran back from the wipe I politely explained how much damage the Novas do and how much easier it is to heal when people step off them. I totally remember when I just didn’t know that they cast Fire Nova so I didn’t watch for it and was too busy watching the mobs or my buttons to look down. But I learned. So did these guys. First pull after we got back, Fire Nova hit the floor and everyone moved. It was beautiful.

    Copey, I sure hope you’re right about everyone who’s “hard core” setting aside random dungeon running once they get their Triumph gear. In my experience, it’s always been the guys who think they’re hard core who get pissy. New people levelling up, or running alts, seem to remember much more clearly what it was like before they were rock stars. They’re more tolerant of noobish mistakes, more social, more willing to shoot the breeze or share advice and are much kinder about it.

    I don’t know . . . not that I doubt people are having bad experiences with LFG. I just . . . I personally have much more good than bad. I hope people stick with random dungeons. Especially if they’re the fun loving types that I think read this blog.

  10. Sparky says:

    See, this is why I always take the “waaaaaah I hate all these elitist arseholes who complain in pugs!” whines with a heavy pinch of salt.

    I’ve started pugging a lot more because of the new system – I used to avoid pugging like the plague. And I find myself beginning to side more and more with the “elitists.” Are there people holding other puggers to ridiculous standards of gear and skill, who see to expect ICC ready characters in every little heroic? Sure there are! And they’re most definitely arseholes

    But I find there are 10 times that number of greenie-clad, never run a normal, never bothered to quest or get rep gear, never crafted anything, never done ANY class (or instance) research and general lazy-arse failers who are looking to ride on people’s coattails.

    Yes, anyone demanding full 245+ gear on heroics and screaming at anyone not pulling in 4-5k dps is an arsehole. But I find them immensely rare compared to the endless no-skill, no-gear, no-effort facerollers blundering their way into a heroic, doing nothing except roll on enchanting mats, making a 15 minute instance into a 90 minute migraine and not only not acknowledging (or maybe, and I know this is a long shot, saying “thank you”) that the other players have carried their waste of pixels, but screeching about elitism when people get a little frustrated with the dead weight they’re dragging

    And then you get the random weirdos and, you’re right, they are usually tanks which, sadly, doesn’t surprise me. I find that while arseholes come in many flavours, tanks tend to be a special kind of arsehole because of a sense of rare specialness about them. I’ve seen this not only in the new pug system, but the old pugs and even new recruits/trials/people asking to join the guilds. It has becoming a running joke in our guild that 80% of tank players need serious therapy because they’re nearly always the worst drama-llama (we poke our current main tank from time to time for being so nice and reasonable. He must spend his weekends as a serial killer.)

    The main thing the new pugging system has done for me is to remind me how utterly wonderful my guild and guildies are – because there are so many shockingly awful players (and people) out there that it horrifies me

  11. Kattrinsaa says:

    Dechion, I picked up a nasty one. didn’t want to put the story in a commentwall so posted my story on my site.

  12. For the Pie says:

    I just thought it was at the lower levels that the fail dpsers were…. I am learning to tank both Druid and Warrior and wow…wow..wow. Seriously, how can you think it’s best to run into the fight before the tank. Or scream at me to get aggro when you didn’t charge the skull?
    .-= For the Pie´s last blog ..Merry Christmas from all of us at 4TH =-.

  13. The one thing I learnt from the LFD tool is that any role is easily replaceable. The few times tanks have dropped out of the group a DPSer has stepped up to say he’s got a tank spec too; we just grab another DPS and are off. As an offspec tank who gets cheesed off by players with big attitudes, I’d say it’s fairly easy for tankers to get lulled into a pit of false security, thinking we’re the big shots. A lot of DPSers can tank if need be, so meat shields aren’t as scarce as they seem. It just takes a little coaxing (like the dropping out of one) for us to come out. In a virtual world where dual-speccing is now expected, no one’s that much a special snowflake any longer.

    Now if only this revelation could make certain people less miserable to interact with…

  14. Elegantdeath says:

    I’m seriously beginning to think the LFG system is a huge sociology experiment (e.g. plaque spreading we got to participate in last year).

    I think the best bet is to run raids/instances with guildies and establish brother/sister guilds within our same realm. The beauty of SD is that “every single member” knows their capability and would never throw another guildie under the bus. Look, I’m the first to admit if I (lol rarely) aggro something by mistake or accidentally focus on the wrong target after we take out “the skull” but our group is full of competent folks who make the very occassional mistake. Good to be here!

  15. Kzanol says:

    Tanking in PUGS is like being shadow vulnerability debuffed while peeing into the bowl at Annual National Meeting of Affliction Warlocks.

    I’m afraid cross realms PUGs are the ultimate tier to Gabriel’s theory. You don’t even have to think about any anonymous toon flaming your anonymous one when your run cross realm. ;)

    Happened yesterday in Hall of Stones Pug, me tanking:
    Group showed up, infamous gearscore showed 4 toons in 5200-5400 range plus a hunter scored 3000. Next I saw was a vote to kick hunter. Questions?
    I just told them to kick tank as well if they’d continue, it’d take me less than 10 secs to find another group as tank. Ultimate argument to people who may have watched screens for some 20 – 30 mins to get their random instance PUG set up. ;) After downing end boss dpsers flamed hunter’s low dps esp. at endboss content. Well, he/she was just doing his/her job namely keeping adds away from the healer, something Mr DK-5400 wasn’t even thinking about. … and his/her overall dmg output was far better than theirs relative to everyone’s equipment.

    Today’s Pit of Saron:
    Tanking two elite skeltons. Rogue dies. So far so good. ;)
    R: “I did wait 5 secs before I started dps. How long should I wait, Mr. so called tank?” — I love conversation that start this way.^^
    Me: “After my first 2 hits you are free to dps my primary target, if you die because of aggro, I’ll pay your repair bill. On any other target my concern is just to be definitely ahead of healer(s). DPSers I don’t care about. Easy to understand, isn’t it?”
    Next skeleton, I pulled with FF waiting for the mob to arrive. Rogue dies. So far, even better. ;)
    R: “WTF”
    Me: “When I do range pull, I REALLY like the mob to come to me before anyone starts any action. Or at least keep silent if they don’t!”
    R: ” But why didn’t you step towards the mob?”
    Me: “Because I’m the tank, I’m god here, we do it my way or you die. Well, the other reason is that there’s a dragon pat, which would be in range if I stepped forward. Any of these reasons is fine for me, take the one you like!”
    Group laughed and rogue left flaming the noobish tank and group.

  16. Will says:

    Most of the runs I’ve done using the new LFG system have been smooth and efficient, if impersonal. I very rarely have a chance to say “hello” to the group before we’re off, and when we finish, people drop group so fast I rarely have the chance to wish everyone a good night. Rare are the times when a word is spoken during the run.

    Yes, it’s nice to be able to plow through a five-man in fifteen minutes, but the social aspect of it that I enjoy seems to be dying. Maybe I’m looking at it the wrong way, but I’ve done runs that are ruthlessly efficient, spotlessly executed, and yet when they finish, I honestly can’t tell if I’ve had fun or not.

    Aside from that, my experiences with people have been generally positive. Most tanks that I’ve done runs with pace themselves nicely, but there are some that seem to want to kill everything at once; moving from mob to mob so quickly that I (a Hunter), have incredible difficulty keeping things in range or in my line of sight. Not to mention the run I did where not even the tank paid attention to his marked targets; switching his target seemingly at random, resulting in more aggro issues than my Feign Death/Misdirection cooldowns could stand.

    And I have encountered jerks, ninja looters, and all around assholes. They’re exceedingly rare, and I try not to pay them much mind, but the bad taste of those experiences, when I have them, tend to stay with me long enough that it makes me not want to run anything for a while.

    I’ve been considering trying out a tanking class for a little while now (for two years I’ve played my Hunter and my Hunter alone, and I’m starting wonder what the other roles are like), but the stories I’ve heard of the jerks in LFG these days make me question whether or not I should. You learn through experience, and I worry that people would be too impatient for me to actually experience the trial and error that learning something entirely new would entail.

  17. Autumn says:

    I’ve just got the Multitudes achievement on one character, and will be getting it on my paladin tank today. My bear tank’s kind of languishing, but he at least is almost reaching the “Patient” title. Soon. Soonish.

    Either way, out of all these randoms, I have never actually come across any terrible groups. Of course, there have been drunk tanks, drunk healers, incompetent tanks, incompetent healers, (incompetent dps goes without saying), people of somewhat questionable character and semi-afk players. Out of all these, I have actually only dropped group 3 times. Of these, twice was from H HOR, where the group just wasn’t learning after 2-3 wipes.

    The last one was in H POS, where all the dps was doing on average, half the tank (me)’s damage. I never knew mobs could take so long to kill. Either way, I let the group know that we don’t have enough DPS to complete the instance, and probably won’t be able to down the first boss, good luck etc and left party.

  18. dwredux says:

    Let me first start off by saying, that I do not condone anyone acting in any way like described in the post (or even in Vanis’ example) BUT, this really really shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. It is very common human behavior. If you have to wait 20 odd minutes to get into a group as a dps, and you have to wait a split second to get into an instance as a tank, guess who people will smootch to make sure they are happy and will stay in the group – so the group don’t have to spend 10-15 minutes looking for a new tank.
    And when you experience everyone puckering up to you (as a tank) you get used to that behavior. And -especcially if you are a little young, or a little weak- you will get harder and harder to please.
    The more spoiled anyone gets, the more they will demand. It is common human behavior.

    For example I read a blog post where someone moaned about the melee dps not running behind the mobs and stabbing from the back. Is that really something to get upset about? Maybe its just because EU realms are more used to players not being able to communicate very well in English, but having players not understand what you are writing in PuG’s isn’t really a big thing. To us that aren’t spoiled ;)

    Having said that (and teased a little aswell) I don’t think that the situation is that bad on my server, or maybe i’ve just been lucky. However, playing the blame game, is something that does seem to happen a lot still. Even after successful kills.

  19. Steele says:

    Hehe goot timing, yesterday i /ragequit my first heroic instance as a tank. I usually dont mind hunters pulling, everyone trying to steal my agro, no kill-order, no LoS and general chaos because as a warrior tank i have plenty tools to remain in control and deal with the nubtards. but this was too much: 2 hunters rolling 1k dps with their full epic sets.. dissing everyone 12-year-old style when something went wrong (and IF something went wrong it was ALWAYS because of those hunters) and preventing each other from being voted out. ahn kahet – 1 wipe at the spiders, 1 wipe at the first boss (2nd try 2 people stayed alive). we arrived at the bottom floor before the prince and the hunter manages to pull 2 groups WHILE dissing the healer in chat. so i just teleported out. Amazing..

  20. Csara says:

    Oh, I must have some luck with pug tanks when I’m dpsing then – i’ve never had the 12 year old type.

    Unless we’re classifying as ‘tanks’ the idiot dps who likes to pull aggro for fun. And i’ve had just a few of those.
    These aren’t ‘oops, sorry, use cooldown to return aggro to tank’ kinda people, they’re ‘i’m a mainspec tank and i’m just having fun’ kinda people.
    Yeah, just having fun and just giving me an aneurism in the middle of one of the new ICC instances. Gah!

    I’ve only had one DK do the ‘i’m going to pull army on every pull that i can cause i think its FUN’, and I’ve only had one hunter think that misdirecting pulls to random people was fun, so far. *crosses fingers* 20 more randoms to go till I get my pet and can stop thinking about it.

    Are the two seconds that it takes for me to charge in, hit the skull target and gather up the rest of the mobs too long for people to wait before hitting the loldps button?

  21. Zetter says:

    I think the nastiest experience I had was with some heavily geared people. The tank had 50K hit points and then in Forge of Souls heroic then proceeded to head of at 90 miles an hour before I even got my spec changed and gear on. Cue one wipe and lots of abuse from him and the two dpsers who must also have been about 12 years old or possibly 5 I wasnt sure.
    After I got sortd out again the tank then proceeded to hammer through the instance with the whole party tanking insane amount of damage as the mobs hit hard there with lots of AOE. I had to innervate twice in the run which I never have to do. To top it of the pricks tried to kill me on Devourer of Souls by dpsing like mad when I had the debuff.
    Compare this where I have had a couple of runs with blue/ odd epic geared tanks and these have been sensible and polite.
    Overall my pugging has been good but there have been a couple of real runs which I think I have been running with the mad and the foolish.

    Zetter
    .-= Zetter´s last blog ..LFG Fun take 2 =-.

  22. Kaethir says:

    Straight copy, my comment from a week or so ago…

    “Much as Rhii suggests over at I Sheep Things suggests for a healer, I think I’ll create a macro to spam at the beginning of random dungeons…

    “Hi, I’ll be your tank for this run. Here are some suggestions for a clean, smooth run: Attack the marked target, or failing that, my target (kill order: skull, x, square). Silence casters if you can; I can’t. Misdirect or tricks of the trade on me much and often. If a mob does get loose and chase you, run to me. Don’t stand in the fire. If I’m going too fast say something. If I’m going too slow, don’t pull things for me – I’ll let you tank them. Use AoE only if the group is well closed up on me or I’ll let you tank what you pull. Don’t use knockback attacks. Hug your bear. That is all.””
    .-= Kaethir´s last blog ..Yet another Primer Followup =-.

  23. Kemonojin says:

    I’ve had pretty good luck myself so far, knock on simulated woodgrain, but have noticed a bit of the other stuff. See someone target everyone in the party one at a time, then disappear. As a healer, my wait time is just about ‘click the button’. Went into the oculus (I hate hate hate it!) and three of the party left immediately, leaving the healer (me) and the tank. Another five dps cycled through until finally some stayed, and we had a good run. People hate the oculus for many reasons; it’s long, and a pain in the ass with the dragons.
    I did finally get the northrend dungeoneer, or whatever it was achievement out of it, tho. It was a pretty smooth run, we wiped once at Big Blue Pain In The Butt.

    Although after doing HoR several times and just utterly failing to keep a tank with 49k+ health alive to the point I almost chewed a hole in my lip, I’d rather do the oculus twice than HoR once. And I missed turning in the quest at Jaina at the ship, so I HAVE to do it again.

    A lot of silence too, from me as well; I’d talk, but I can’t type and keep up at the same time. A few very fun groups where we DID talk, and one of which we stayed together and queued as 4 to run together again. Had to drop the moonkin who wasn’t listening, and AOEing when told to single target… Apparently a new 80, in quest blues and a couple of epics, which itself is not a strike against them to me; everybody starts somewhere. But when you’re given detailed directions, nod and smile then run off and do the exact opposite…

  24. Sionnan says:

    Thanks for allowing me a pass on the bugnuttery. I just started reading your blog, as I decided that I needed to level a tank. I can’t bear the thought of raising another toon from scratch, so my 65 dual-specced moonkin/resto got the nod a few days ago, and the moonkin spec got switched to bear. I haven’t actually tanked with her yet – still trying to figure her out and get her some non-caster gear, but that will come.

    Meanwhile, I’ve been pugging lots on my mage and holy priest – on my mage to gear up, and on my priest to get enough emblems for Heirloom gear for my baby bear. For the most part, I’ve had decent pugs. Occasionally, I’ve had awesome pugs – ones that have made me sorry that these people weren’t on my server. And of course, I’ve seen my fair share of oddities, like the hunter who meleed his way through HoS, even after being told nicely that he might do better if he used a ranged attack. I, as the healer, had higher dps than he did, I kid you not. And then there was the healer who would only heal the tank, even when there was aoe damage. And he would go into fights at a quarter health and half mana. When the tank waited, the healer complained and said “I’m good, keep going”. I gave him mana biscuits, but he didn’t seem to want to use them. Needless to say, there were lots of deaths on that run, many of them mine. Fun times, fun times!

  25. weenie says:

    Most of my pugs with my 80 hunter (and note, I don’t often pull or take aggro from tanks – use MD and FD often!) have been good, but I only do randoms to get my daily frost emblems and also to help out guildies now.

    Yesterday, I decided to put my lvl 32 druid through LFG for the first time. Had a couple of successful pugs, then two bad ones in a row.

    Bad Pug 1 – We got Scarlet Monastery and the warrior tank is pulling too quickly, priest healer dies, followed quickly by tank – me and the dps manage to clear the mobs and stay alive.

    Tank – “Druid, why didn’t you heal?”
    Me – “I’m Feral/dps”
    Tank – “WTF? You can heal! Switch when we need heals!”
    Me – “Well, if you didn’t pull too many mobs, the healer could cope”
    Tank – “STFU and just do what’s best!”
    Me – “Why don’t you just stick with tanking properly?”
    Tank – “I’m sick of your stupid stubborn attitude. FU” and leaves. Fortunately, we did get a replacement tank and completed the run.

    Bad Pug 2 – Razorfen Downs. Pally tank keeps going AWOL so the run is taking a long time. We finally get to second to last boss and some blue leather shoulders drop, +6 Agility and +6 Strength. I click Need. So does the tank and he wins.

    Other pug – “You’re a paladin and you’re wearing plate, why did you Need?”
    No answer from tank.
    Other pug – “Seriously mate, you don’t need that item, pass to the druid.”
    No answer from the tank.
    Me – “I can’t abide greedy players – bye.”

    Running dungeons did get me a lot of exp so I shall persevere but the above comments are true, soon LFG will not be a good place to be in!

  26. Kaethir says:

    … and yes, I DID copy that, bad grammar and all…

    In other news, I work in the Department of Redundancy Department.
    .-= Kaethir´s last blog ..Yet another Primer Followup =-.

  27. bigbearbutt says:

    Kaethir, I actually took your comment, and made it into a macro, adding a couple things/rewording a couple things.

    It takes three /p macros, and annoys Cassie immensely. I think she thinks it makes me seem like a prick right out of the gate.

    On the other hand… the way it’s phrased always gets a chuckle from someone. “Hug your bear. That is all.”

  28. Thomstel says:

    Oh the LFG. I’m running about a 4-1 ratio of good-bad experiences so far, which from the sounds of it is pretty darn great. I’m even lumping in one stupid “leaving so I’ll pull a couple packs, then teleport out” occasions in on the “bad” side.

    I’m double-feral specced and have yet to queue as Tank, just because. At first it was the thought of tanking one of the new three cold turkey was worrisome, but now it’s become more a case of “it’s good to have at least one competent DPS” theory. Not that I think too highly of my deeps, but they’re well above what’s required for Heroics and I make sure to behave myself as much as possible. Only real trouble so far is when the tank is new-ish and doesn’t build threat quickly enough for my gear and I have to back it off. So bad about seeing that.

    Of course, there are really awesome scenarios to be had as well:
    - Skadi gauntlet with a killer tank that was leading the DPS with 2.9k to that point, one totally new 80 Hunter, one totally schizo DK DPS. Healer saved the day despite terrible damage through Grauf’s breath attack a solid six-to-seven times. Skadi went down, and I complimented the healer on keeping us all up through that crap, and got a couple heartfelt whispers thanking me for saying something nice in a PuG.
    - AN, tank and I run out on 3 bozos who were dead-set on getting “Watch Him Die”, to the point of when the tank said “no” to trying it, they pulled the boss anyway. I saw tank running back to the ramp, knew he was bailing, popped Dash to catch up and pass him, he intercepts to catch up to me once I had a decent lead, and we both zoned out as the other three idjits die. Much hate filled party chat, tank and I said gnite and dropped group. Hilarious entitlement complex is hilarious.
    - H PoS: Pop into a group with Garfrost and Master Blaster already down with a Mage and Shammy healer. Other two teleport back from Dal after a couple minutes, tank blurts out “Who’s heals?” Apparently he’s half-blind, as I was in Cat form already, Shaman was tossing heals to top off someone, and the little icons showing who’s heals became magically invisible for a few seconds. Tank mounts up and takes off, the rest of us do as well, seeing the path to Garfrost is totally clear, and we head that way. Get a snide remark from the tank that we’re going the wrong way, no one bothers trying to figure out how to respond to such a boneheaded thing to say, and then we find that they cleared to Garfrost along the right wall, but the circled back around the pit to get to Master Blaster instead of just clearing the ambusher pack. We get the geists just as the tank gets to the bottom of the ramp, Mage goes down, tank finally gets stuck in, we kill them all. I start to rez the Mage, halfway through the cast…tank pulls the caster set on the ramp. No kidding. Shaman and I mount up and boogie, took a pot to get my butt out of the instance without a death. I finally mouse-over the tank, see it’s a DK with 21K health, laugh that a guildie had complained of a H PoS run with a crappy DK tank with 21K health buffed _from an hour before_ and apologized as best I could that I had no desire to try again, and left group. This was after 2-3 minutes of getting no response to “why did you pull with someone dead on the ground?”

  29. Millea says:

    Yesterday I had a really nice post about a jerk tank. Twitter was kind enough to help me spread the word. I don’t know if it was just the kiddie factor like you (Cassie) said or if it was just the “superstar” thing. I just know it is irritating.

    Last night a guildie and I queued together for our random heroic. He went in as heals and I went on my fail mage. Vel (the healer) is notorious for letting bad tanks and dps die, even so far as causing a wipe. He says that he would rather pay a repair bill instead of heal stupid. We zone into Heroic Halls of Lightning (I swear I get this every night) and I start my table to hand out strudel. 2 of the party members hadn’t even zoned in before the tank was pulling the first group of mobs. Vel stood there at the entrance next to me and my table. I knew what was going down so I waited with him. We had a very nicely geared hunter who was smart enough to wait with us. The DK was off with the tank dying. I finally finished with my food buff and Vel started moving forward. At this point the tank dies. Vel tells him “Now what did we learn here?” The tanks starts spewing off at Vel then tells us “good luck at finding another tank” and zoned out, leaving his corpse in the instance. We queued back up and got another tank in like 2 mins, if that. The new tank zones in and asks us what happened to the other tank. The hunter and I tell her that he was a jerk. Vel tells her that the tank pulled before people were still ready and he let him die. The new tank laughed and started us off. She was a pretty decent tank. She didn’t overpull and waited for everyone. I even complemented her and told her she was a good tank. She thanked me and her tanking went downhill from there >.>, go figure.

    I don’t know if PuGing will change once the raiders are done or not, but it is nice to finally have my guildies freed up again to do heroics with. The first mad rush to use LFG seems to have worn off.
    .-= Millea´s last blog ..The jerk tank and why you don’t piss off a blogger =-.

  30. Sova says:

    Dear big bear butt,
    while I understand your frustration I have this to say.
    If you are a tank in a PuG – you do not complain, ever. As we have it best. If the healer is truly horrible just politely leave. No 900 DPS per damage dealer does not justify leaving a PuG as long as heals are there (not attacking the rifts on anomalus is I admit more annoying but again as long as you somehow can get them down it does not matter). If they stand next to you just turn the mob around they’ll never notice :-).
    Somebody being rude can be solved by vote/kick or again politely leaving the group.
    Now if you are PuGing as healer/DPS I share your pain. I feel for Cassie.
    What I ended up doing in my case is I realized that since I am more experienced player I should be leading and tank is the one in best position to do that so I leveled my druid and have been tanking ever since.
    Now rolling an alt is not really a solution, but I say this. If you have one – your fellow guildies will be happy to go with you.
    In turn your fellow guildies might get the idea that if you can tank perhaps they can as well. Which in turn allows you to bring your original class/toon as more guildies roll tank alts.

  31. Kemonojin says:

    Thomstel; not everybody’s UI shows the little ‘who is doing what’ icons. Mine doesn’t. Although I’d probably be able to figure it out from the person making casty-fingers…

  32. Sarabian says:

    Ok, I agree with Cassie totally. This is a symptom of the holiday break from school from all the demon children. All summer break is the same crap. The children are back and that means there are stupid, whiny, know-it-all idiots (yes, I could have saved time and said “teens”, but I like spelling it out) in volume because they didn’t have to be at school and Mom and Dad didn’t want to have to spend time with them. They are therefore left unsupervised on the computer to annoy the hell out of all of us mature people. My son is 13 and plays. He is supervised, however. We play next to each other and when he does something “teen-y” I let him know and make him atone for it on the spot. Since I have done that from the very beginning, most people find him a pleasure to have along because he minds his manners and has become a fairly competent tank. Why can’t other parents do something similar so their spawn does not show their idiocy to so many people?

  33. Triztan says:

    Hey Bear! Just wanted to point out a little correction about dodge. :P You were wrong in saying that mobs can’t dodge attacks from behind. Mobs can dodge any melee attack it is only players that can not dodge attacks from behind. http://www.wowwiki.com/Dodge tells the story as well as those useful hints that WoW has on the bottom of loading screens. Just thought I would point that out to you. Do with it as you wish! :)

  34. Kattrinsaa says:

    @sarabian – that totally goes against american culture these days. taking responsibility for your own kids? what are you smoking? Isn’t it every child’s right to behave as if they were raised by wolvar? It’s not like it’s even legal to spank a child anymore, or for that matter ground them. I mean that’s grounds for calling in Child protective services now. And Great being (for most of us God) forbid threatening to take away their high speed internet and making them use dialup or dsl. — /end sarcasm

    Seriously tho, the attitudes we are seeing are a symptom of the reality these brats live in. No discipline at home, no discipline at school, no child left behind mentality. I actually think we should revert back a few decades in certain aspects, give the nuns/teachers their rulers back to whack across kids knuckles and get their attention. Give the parents and teachers the ability to enforce rules again, time outs have their place, but are only so effective.

    A friend of mine in game does allow her 6 year old to play, but mostly to do the fishing and dailys with her on their second account while her husband is at work. If i had a second account/computer i might try that with the 5 year old that is always pestering me in my computer room.
    .-= Kattrinsaa´s last blog ..Flailpugs are Us =-.

  35. Thomstel says:

    @Kemonojin: Oh I’m sure the various UI add-ons obscure the little first aid symbol to some degree, or completely, but considering how clueless and thoughtless he was acting (he did make the 3 new folks on the run wait 2-3 minutes before he teleported back from Dal), Occam’s Razor says “ignorance”. Not that Occam is right, just saying. ;)

  36. bigbearbutt says:

    Triztan… that was supposed to say Parry, not Dodge. Lol, I don’t even think most people caught it, because it’s just been part of the thing for so long that you get behind the mob and get your Hit Rating to the point that the enemy can’t successfully Dodge anymore… we always talk about mobs’ dodge and never parry, because peeps are never supposed to be in front to get parried, or reset the swing timer. So I was just rolling along and said dodge.

    Whoops!

  37. Silmol says:

    Most of my PUGs as my Warlock have been O.K. A few were run way too fast by the tank – I was chugging mana pots and lifetapping like mad to keep up. (On one of these, the Tree healer whispered me “Life Tap as much as you need, I’ve got mana to burn”. I /hugged that tree, for sure!)

    My wife has had a few really bad ones (fire-standing DPS, melee that doesn’t stand behind the mobs, she’s at the top of DPS meters, etc.) as a tank and one that really takes the cake on her Rogue. She was with a group of 4 that were all in the same guild from another server. She noticed that she wasn’t getting any heals, either during the fight or after. After she died in one fight, the priest announced that “we hate rogues, so I don’t heal them, but I’ll rez you.” The others agreed. She just continued on, stepping out of melee to bandage if needed, taking health pots when she could. I think she died twice more, once leading to a wipe as the tank didn’t pick up some adds, they hit the priest, she stepped over to pull them off the priest, she died from lack of heals, and the priest got whacked anyway.

  38. Askevar says:

    I seem to get some doozies on my toons…

    *a botting hunter who had no aspect, was throwing autoshot only and was randomly walking across Violet Hold laying down a trap in the same exact random spot and wouldn’t respond in party.
    *mouthy dps who can’t hit 1k [despite my hubby's level 75 pally being able to pull 1800 with spikes to 2k]. I don’t mind low dps, but I’m not interested in dealing with mouth and dps that thinks pulling extra groups/offtargets/cc targets/whatever is funny and who are actually disappointed when we don’t wipe because the rest of the group is on their game
    *Enchanter ninjas – who believe they are entitled to NEED everything in an instance they can simply to prevent people from using the DE option.
    *DPS standing in front of Anubarak and dying to pound and cussing all over group chat because it’s everyone else’s fault [you have no idea how often this happens!]
    *Bear tanks who will not use swipe. [yes had a couple]. I had to go bear on my druid just to keep everything off the healer simply because the bear would only handle one target at a time in aoe groups.
    *DK tanks with 424 defense
    *Pally tank pulling 700 threat per second, blaming it on lag, [while I and the 4k dps warrior and the healer were all pulling off with one attack/heal/etc] and getting in a huff when I swap to a tank spec and keep pulling us all through the instance rather than vote kicking him.
    *Special snowflakes who think their dps is so high they can do whatever they want and behave how they like.

    I have a reputation in guild for getting the most… interesting groups. :P

    Rare is the group that kills my marked target when I’m tanking.
    Rare is the group that will let me mana up before boss fights in the ICC instances when I’m healing.
    Rare is the group where I’m allowed to LoS a group before everyone blasts the target
    Rare is the group where melee move out of whirlwind and such
    .-= Askevar´s last blog ..Week in Review: =-.

  39. Kaethir says:

    @Bear:

    Care to share your version? I haven’t actually done it yet because I also happen to think it’ll make me sound like a prick, but hey you’re the second person I’ve had tell me they already started using it, and I’m tired of people not getting the fact that I actually do know what I’m doing.
    .-= Kaethir´s last blog ..Yet another Primer Followup =-.

  40. Kzanol says:

    @B^3
    “Triztan… that was supposed to say Parry, not Dodge. Lol, I don’t even think most people caught it, because it’s just been part of the thing for so long that you get behind the mob and get your Hit Rating to the point that the enemy can’t successfully Dodge anymore… we always talk about mobs’ dodge and never parry, because peeps are never supposed to be in front to get parried, or reset the swing timer. So I was just rolling along and said dodge.

    Whoops!”

    You’re getting sloppy, big old bear.^^

    It’s expertise not hit to avoid mob’s dodging, hit is more to avoid one’s own misses, I’m sure you know. ;)

  41. Zombiee says:

    I had my best pug last night, 5 random people with my healing on my DiscPriest alt. Gundrak, everyone comes in and casually starts tossing buffs until I say “I know we’re short on time, but I haven’t got my frost badges yet today and I’d like to try to make it” We had 21 minutes till reset, after a chorus of “We’ll try” off we went in complete silence, except for the tank pausing before each boss to check my mana. We went and did the extra boss with no one whining about it and still rolled thru the place in 17 minutes. The all the dps were between 2000 and 3000 dps, the tank lost agro a couple of times but no one died. In fact, after the last boss dropped, the group stuck together chatting about how much fun the run was and we ran a 2nd random (now after the reset).

    On the other hand, my worst group was in UP. As a feral druid tank geared to run Icc25, I was doing about 60% of the dmg every pull or boss and outhealing the tree druid with my ImpLeader of the Pack. The tree druid was healing with my old tanking weapon and was spec’d 0/0/71, the ret paladin didn’t judge a single time the entire run … not ONCE. It’s possible he had no seal up either. The affliction warlock was using Curse of Doom on trash, cast haunt a total of once and had an unhealthy obsession with incinerate. The rogue, bless his heart, was doing everything he could with the 95% green quest gear he had.

    The whole run made me want to cry. I’m ashamed to say that after the 5th wipe on the Skadi boss (8 wipe overall) I politely said that this group wasn’t gonna be able to clear it and bailed on them.

  42. ericTheFrog says:

    As a bear tank, I was told to take off my DPS gear and put on my tanking gear… By the Paladin healer.
    When I asked how many hours he had tanking as a druid I was told by the DPS that I shouldn’t be an ass about it and change out of the DPS gear.

  43. Faelivrin says:

    “I politely, gently, quite considerately suggest that if they move behind the mobs to DPS, then the mobs can’t Dodge their attacks, and their damage will go up.”

    Hmm think u mixed things up a bit :)

    Mobs CAN dodge attacks from behind. They can NOT parry attacks from behind. (Thats why dps should get some expertise to get rid off the dodges)

    But i was laughing so much i fell almost off my sofa while reading your blog this time.

    Good blog good writing i just love u, keep it that way PLEASE!

    oh and hey I DONT LIKE COUNTRYMUSIC AT ALL! please kick me !!!!

    fae from kazzak europe

  44. Jujubee says:

    Wow, this post just sums up the frustration that both my friend and I have been experiencing for the past few months! Just the random LFG tool enhanced it! He is a tank, and I am usually the healer, or can tank and give him a break and let him dps. My husband, he used to be a paladin healer in Vanilla and BC, and he couldn’t stand it anymore and went ret. He’s lucky and doesn’t deal with the frustration that we do.

    People pulling and attacking random targets, even with marks up. DPS not listening to rules, even if it’ll keep them alive, etc. We see it the most in heroic Halls of Reflection. Its gotten to the point where we do the three strike rule. Its mean, but we can’t tolerate it anymore. If you don’t listen to the guidance and we spoke to you three times: I’m not healing you. Most of the time it either scares people straight or they leave and we can easily replace another DPS.

    Hell, before this random LFG tool, there were people who we know who are nice, but are completely incompetent when it comes to instances. We have to tell them how to spec, what stats to go into for their class/spec. And it could be chalked up to being that they’re just oblivious and don’t pay attention. Yet, if we do heroics with them, they ignore all the rules and guidelines, yell at us when they die, and then even have the nerve to roll Need on items for offspec against others who need it for main and then fight and bitch nonstop if we try to correct their actions.

    As a tank and healer, I really believe that Wrath made DPS lazy. I don’t care if someone has an amazing gearscore and has the best gear there is. If you don’t listen and pay attention to what is going on, its not going to help the group at all – but make it much harder.

  45. slappy says:

    i must be one of those rockstar tanks…

    seems to me the gradually decreasing maturity level of players is an ongoing trend, and it’s not likely to get better. as the game gets dumber and dumber, it gets easier and easier to find groups with children and turned-80-yesterday nooblets. just a fact we’re going to have to deal with. the new LFG system makes it even more likely that you’ll get these groups, and from my experience, there’s only one thing to do about it – tank it yourself.

    personally i’d just as well dps in many cases, but out of pure fear of fail tanks, i don’t. i just tank it. if you have a heal spec and a tank spec, the best way to avoid these situations is just tank yourself. bears generate enough threat to keep aggro on all mobs 99% of the time regardless, simply spamming swipe and running around in circles. if one does get loose, just taunt it.

    if you can keep control of everything, you don’t need to worry about how much the dps fails. healers only have 1 thing to worry about – not letting the bear die – so it’s not exactly rocket science for them either.

    i’ve done the random heroic every day since the patch. in about 50% of those runs, i end up 1st in damage at the end. i’m not trying to say my dps is good, but that so far, in about 50% of the random groups i’ve run with, the dps is absolutely awful. still, you can overcome this enormous tidal wave of miserable failure by… being a rockstar tank.

    so yeah, rockstar tanks ftw.

  46. Lila says:

    I had my first epic fail group last night–with my level 20 druid in Shadowfang Keep. I’m healing, we’ve got a shaman and hunter, rogue, and paladin tank. Pally gives me, the healer, an attack power buff, gives the shaman Blessing of Wisdom, and ignores the hunter who asked for buffs twice. I sigh but hope for the best, and off we go.

    Now, I’ve never played a paladin, but I know they have “drop a glowy hammer on the bad guy’s head” abilities and “gather up stray mobs” abilities and “kill stuff” abilities. This paladin didn’t use any of them, just ran up to something and started attacking it, leaving other mobs on everyone else. This was not a tank that was having trouble holding aggro. This was a tank that Wasn’t. Tanking. At. All. There was some “WTF” and the “tank’s” response amazed me:

    “It’s only SFK, we’re nowhere near dying, no big deal.”

    So we keep going, the shaman is being the tankiest of everyone, I’m healing the crap out of everyone, including myself, and running out of mana constantly. Oh, and the rogue was spamming recount and the rogue and shaman were both bragging about their heirlooms. I now believe all the unbelievable stories you all post here.

    More WTFs ensue when I can’t keep up with the chaos and people die. Paladin bails, we kick the rogue, and requeue, but the shaman keeps going, running out of LOS from me and bitching when my heals are late.

    Then he says “It’s only SFK, I could run it by myself.”

    I can’t help myself, and say “Ok, you have fun with that” and leave.

    It almost came around from terrible to awesome in the “I can’t believe people can be this moronic” way.

  47. Truffled says:

    Just wanted to add a little comment for my two cents. I’ve been leveling my druid healer by pugging, and the comment about tanks feeling like they are just better than everyone else in the group really hit home. On MORE than one occasion I see “brb” from the tank as soon as we zone in, and we just have to wait for who knows how long (once my queue timer actually ran out while waiting), cause everyone is too afraid to kick him so we don’t have to wait another 10 or more minutes for another tank.

  48. Swyper says:

    BBB, gotta say, your Blog has changed my game. I have read it for weeks now, and never felt compelled to post but rather move through the vast amount of imformation and try and understand it all. This post however, got me thinkin.

    I am the GM of a raid guild on my Server(Durotan) and my main is a very well geared rogue. My druid was my first toon, and was originally a healer. I parked him for several years because the rogue was so much fun to play. Having gone back to the healer and respec’d to bear, my lil druid quickly leveled to 80. I also had the benefit of Tanking in front of 2 players that ARE tanks. One of each class tank, per player. These guys know the game. They also prepped me for almost every kind of fail dps situation their 4 plus years of tanking have afforded them the insight of. These guys would chain lighting mobs before i was there, they would seed of corruption the mobs around the corner, and not tell me. I can tell you i had my fun with the manna wyrms in the BC dungeons, You know the ones, they blow up when they die? AoE a pack of 6, and they all go boom, and wipe the melee. Good fun as a tank.

    Now, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my guildies look after me, and they say nice things about my tankability, and my patience. But there are times i step out of the guild run random, and take on the LFG system. It helps me to stay sharp i think.

    my last random LFG i ran ( and will ever run) on my bear went along the lines of,

    Rogue(sub spec) 1.8speed dagger main hand, 2.6 speed sword offhand, no poisons on either, and he insisted on sapping every mob before i pulled.
    Mage(71 point frost) that frost trapped every LoS pull i made.
    DK that ran into the mobs, dropped his death and decay, and then turned his back to the mob.ON EVERY PULL!

    now, Heroic UK is not hard. Least i dont think so, but when the combined group dps does not break 4k, with the tank doin 2k of it, a challenge is the term that comes to mind.

    having spent almost 20 minutes clearing to Kelseth, the rogue now had nothing to sap, since the boss was immune( He tried). No LoS pull to trap, but our ever confused DK continued to drop his DnD and turn his back. I got Iceblocked first, and typed out in party chat that they needed to dps the ice block to get me out. the DK, turned, faced Kelseth, and somehow gained aggro. The healer shaman(Bless her soul) got me out of the ice block as all dps continued to beat on Kelseth. Free at last I taunted Kelseth back, and failed to type the string of obcenities that were coming out of my mouth untill……

    The DK deathgrips Kelseth back. Growl on CD, I use my roar.

    Now i know nothing about DK’s. I broke my first one before ever leaving the enclave.( if you die, dont release, the NPC will rez you, since there is no way to go from the spirit healer to the enclave, Blizz suggest deleting and rerolling should you find yourself at the spirit healer) Somehow he managed to taunt Kelseth back. The mage….blinked away from the fight and was halfway to the entrance, the shaman(healer) was top dps, and the rogue was cussin about how sap was not working.

    I /hug the healer and quit group.

    now maybe i am elitist. Maybe i have an ego, since my guildies tell me I am a better tank than a rogue. But i dont lend quarter to DPS that play by themselves in a 5 man environment. If you are in a GROUP, then you are part of that group. Work together. Comunicate. Play the game. Dont QQ about who is at fault for this or that. Overcome the obstacles and finish. or solo another alt to 80.
    but the attitude these days does seem to come from guys that dont belong in the heroics being run by overgeared players that donate easy loot and badges. Once you remove the overgeared players, you have only noob players with more gear than they know what to do with. And the attitude that they deserve more.

  49.  

World of Warcraft™ and Blizzard Entertainment® are all trademarks or registered trademarks of Blizzard Entertainment in the United States and/or other countries. These terms and all related materials, logos, and images are copyright © Blizzard Entertainment. This site is in no way associated with Blizzard Entertainment®