So, thank you to Kaelynn for being far more eloquent than I.

All the things I was trying to say in my last post, Kaelynn said much, much, much better, and with added bits that make more sense.

Go read her blog post, and then pretend that my post was somewhere nearly almost kinda as good as that.

Look, just pretend, okay? I’m tired.

10 Responses to “There! THAT’S what I was trying to say!”
  1. Sarabian says:

    I think I do now see what you guys are getting at. I’m seeing that you think it would be a good plan to be able to make DPS able to have more utility than just to melt things. I can see how that would be nice. My shaman is offspec DPS and I enjoy it when I get to do it. It’s fun to blow things up when I’m out questing or whatnot.

    But if you make it so that a mage, a rogue, a hunter, etc. can just jump in and fill my role (even if not as well) then you lessen the import of a good tank and people’s reason to become a good tank. As a paladin or warrior tank, I have certain mechanics that enable me to act like a teenager with a green mohawk in an instance (jump up and down in front of the boss screaming “Look at me! Look at me! Look at me!”). If you make it so that Mr. Rogue can say “Oh, villany! Mr. Paladin has bit the big nasty one and fallen, unable to get up! Whatever shall we do?!” and wring his hands a bit before thinking “Oh joy! Oh rapture! I can now engage my own teenage tendencies and hold the attention of the mob whilst the rest of the party makes it seize like a Windows Vista Beta computer!”, then are people going to worry if the tank goes down? Once geared, will they just queue for DPS or tank and power through heroics and just make things worse? I tend to think so.

    But if I haven’t yet gotten the point, fret not. I will one day.

  2. Clapus says:

    A lot of the crying come from the fact that all the extra DPS, remember the ratio of tank/dps/heal 2x5x3 when they run daily random have to use less than perfect tanks( namely me). I like to tank I may not be BBB level but I do have fun and have never left a group just because of a wipe no matter how stupid. I will take honest criticism when needed, but will drop in a flash after being called any expletive or variation of $%#@&$#.
    The point is we are not all raiding 3 nights a week and our gear varies, get over yourselves. Make a promise to carry a lesser geared player at least once a day. I’m not saying anyone should bring someone with all greens into Naxx or VoA, but try to remember that it is sometimes better to have a skilled player than a player with 9000gs.

  3. Copey says:

    I have not seen it being said, but I’m starting to wonder. Is this the product of gearing up people that don’t raid? High end raiders have complained, A LOT, about the badge system. Ever since BC where it was literally more productive towards the end to raid Kara for 22 badges a week and then buy Black Temple level gear from the Sunwell gear venders.

    Then in Wrath, they had an emblem deal, with different tiers of emblems. And when new raids came out, the emblems all upgraded. And now at the end, again, you can just farm lower tiers of content and get higher levels of gear for it. At the time the main complaint was “but they didn’t earn that T9!!” . That can easily be pointed out as qq and epeen, to which the answer is “get over yourself, you have T9.5. Go get some T10, and you can again feel superior for a little while”.

    I never saw the argument of “If they have T9 gear, then they will be trying to run T9 and T10 content, yet lack the skills that one needs to be successful”. And here we are. Tanks crushing heroics one day, then being called nasty names when they fail because they only know how to over power stuff. DPS that have never used crowd control or any of their emergency skills to pull off awesome saves when the content calls for it. People that stand in fire. The list goes on and on.

    I was in a full Ony pug a while back, and we had mass fail. Like a lot of death, FAST. I was not tanking, but I was leading. I had asked if everybody knew the fight, if anybody had any questions. All said they were ready to go, all had the gear to easily accomplish the kill. But they severely lacked the skill. After the 2nd wipe I was paying close attention to what people were doing. Mass dragon fighting technique fails. Cleaves, people getting fire breathed on them, enough whelps to get the achievement if we had actually killed the boss.

    So, I went over the basics. “Folks, we are all playing a game called WoW. In this game of WoW, we are sometimes asked to fight dragons. Cool, right? A few things about dragons you need to know though. Tank, and ONLY tank stands in front. No matter how high your dodge is, you will get cleaved by the boss if you stand in front. If you manage not to get cleaved, you will get lit on fire, so don’t stand in front of the boss. Don’t stand in back either! Tail swipes will hit you hard, and in this instance will create the adds that are killing the healers. Stand away, or to the side please.”

    The encounter was easily one shot after that. I had two different people whisper me thanks, they had no idea dragons did any of that. Both had already cleared Ony before, one of them being the main tank that tanked the boss.

    To make it clear, I’m totally for the badge system, and totally for gearing up my hunter alt as fast as possible. I’m WAY happy I can do TOC on my hunter even though I’ve never cleared Naxx or Uld with him. So I understand Blizzard wanting people to see the content, and how they have accomplished that. If new raiders do nothing else, they should at least go to Ulduar and give it a few honest tries. That place is an awesome raid. Even if the loot is weak compared to what you get for chaining heroics all night.

  4. Arkaneena says:

    Clapus preach it. This is why I heal for my emblems of frost now. As a healer who tanks, (MT for guild more and more often), I help the undergeared learn the encounters, the dps get replaced fast, and the new tank appreciates the help. I would rather they be skilled than overgeared. Raids are not a constant zerg rush on the boss. Tanks if they are ever going to be any good need to learn that. I would rather have someone under the def/hit/exp cap who struggles with holding threat, in a mix of craptastic greens and blues from quests, with less health then I do in my heal gear, learn to tank correctly and ignore gogogo. I just advise him to ignore them. Right click name in chat window, click ignore. Done. If they 264+ geared dps wanna whine go to the back of the queue or wait it out. This tank needs teaching, not yelling and pushing.
    .-= Arkaneena´s last blog ..Chain Pulling Why Pally Tanks Do It =-.

  5. LabRat says:

    Mulling it over one thing does strike me, and that’s something I saw widely predicted when 3.3 dropped- that the importance of guilds would greatly lessen- may be slowly inverting. If it’s possible to gear but not gain much skill in the Pit of Angry Crazy Voles that is pug raids and 5-mans, maybe the importance of the guild as a school and a safe environment to learn how to actually do the content your gear is tuned for, and play your role with skill rather than your face, is rising.

    I really wouldn’t mind at all having my primary role as an officer being “mentor” rather than “gearscore headhunter”.

  6. Copey says:

    LabRat said:

    “I really wouldn’t mind at all having my primary role as an officer being “mentor” rather than “gearscore headhunter”.”

    A-freaking-Men to that man.

  7. Yossi says:

    DPS is where it begins. For everyone. When most people join WoW for the first time, they run around in a skirt, with a stick or a sword, and hit things. It’s simple, it’s direct, and it’s understandable. Most people learn healing as it pertains to soloing and healing themselves. As a priest, I learnt “I’m squishy, I don’t do too much damage, and I need to replenish my health at 10% when that damned rockhide boar is at 60%”. Many people choose DPS characters to begin with (in my case it was a mage), and then find their comfort class as they play further and interact with more people and groups. But everyone solos (except nowadays, where my druid is tanking her way from 40-80), and so knows how to dps. So naturally, all the newcomers will tend towards DPS. I’m not saying that “all dps are noobs”, because that’s ridiculous, but insofar as the term noob applies (in its literal form), most will be DPS. So yes, DPS will be more watered down with newcomers to the game, etc. In fact, two RL friends of mine, father and son, recently hit 80. I took one mage through ToC5 HC, and he was pulling a massive 800dps. Until recently, he had an Agi/Sta staff. Honestly. (He’s 14) The other one (Paladin) was playing for a year, and didn’t know that you should stand behind a mob to get better dps since it doesn’t dodge, didn’t know what hit was all about, and came to me proudly with caster PvP blue gear (he’s a ret paladin). I set him straight, geared him up, and he’s now doing solid mediocre DPS, but still. He’s learning, and learning fast. Neither of these guys are becoming a tank or healer in the near future.

    Tanking/Healing – often lumped together, are another matter. Most people shy away because it’s a new skill to learn. This cannot be underestimated as a jump, because WoW is so full of content to the newcomer, that this is really, really daunting. Everyone learns SOME dps by level 80, but this responsibility is a big step. The DPS themselves, at least those who can’t tank/heal (yet), are mostly guilty of feeding the egos of tanks and healers. Even at level 52, I had some (probably 10-year old) worshipping my tanking (I’m extremely new to tanking), and as a healer, I’d often get some ridiculous compliments. To be honest, healing 5-mans nowadays is a joke, and not worthy of any commendation – in fact, I usually try to out-dps the tank just to make it a challenge. The odd triple-pull can make things exciting for a second, but outside of HoR, it’s not really that much of a challenge. But people still glorify the role.

    And so now the problem tanks (I wouldn’t know much about healers, since I am usually the healer, or bring a guildie) are not those new to the game, but those new to the spec, with gear bought with emblems earnt through DPS. Now, there’s nothing wrong with that, but I’ve witnessed many cross-overs struggle. (One notable exception is the amazing tank who took us through HoR today, his first time tanking it, with a gearscore around 4400, without a single wipe – Kahlis – EU Silvermoon). I’ve yet to meet a tank who is completely new to WoW, unlike the poor DPS that I encounter.

    So what is my point? It’s that healers/tanks are always going to be more rare, and must be more skilled, by the nature of who becomes one, and especially since Blizzard seem to want to be inclusive of all players, even though they aren’t all that skilled. In recognition of the fact that new players will DPS, they’ll make sure that there’s more leeway there. Moreover, DPS is purely a numbers game (forgetting CC and dancing for the moment). So yes, I knowingly took a 900dps mage through ToC5 HC. But us other 2 mages with something like 1200dps between us made him irrelevant. So a low DPS can ALWAYS be carried, at some point, even in places like HoR, assuming that the other DPS can compensate. This comes back to the single point of failure.

    I LIKE the single-point-failure concept. It makes it interesting. It makes it hard. It makes it challenging. If we allow people to switch from DPS to healer with little penalty, where is the incentive to play the top of our game? As a healer, I know that if I die, I get SoR for long enough to throw out some big heals, then spam the druid to CR me before getting an innervate, and popping only the essential throughput buffs, before continuing. The tank knows to put up last stand, survival instincts, shield wall or whatever. In fact, this happened in the above HoR run today. Knowing that I had to time it all perfectly gave me a great rush, and the feeling of accomplishment was a wonderful rush. I’d cheated death, and a wipe. It was amazing teamwork, and I wouldn’t trade it for anything, let alone the moonkin switching forms and taking my place.

    Let those who want to step from DPS to Tank/Healer make that decision, and the role is its own reward. Extra rewards for Tanks/Healers? How about faster dungeon queues? Guaranteed raid placement? More tolerance of failure? (Yes, I’m serious – when I was new, I’d always say so, and people would give me a chance. DPS are generally passed up) It will hit an natural equilibrium. DPS will get frustrated, move to tanking or healing, and make it or go back to DPS.

    To be honest, I’d rather see specialisations, and certainly no mass-hybriding. Of course, everyone must be able to dps enough to level and solo, but priest-tanking? Let people go and roll a DK, or Warrior. I honestly feel that Blizzard has gone too far to the Left (and no, I’m not a Right-Winger) with their super-inclusive “let’s make everyone the same”, nerf-this, tweak-that strategy. Classes should be wildly different. In fact, I’d like to see a 4th kind of class, that does no substantial DPS, tanking or healing – it would be a support class. Imagine (say) an Empath, amplifying dps and healing, mitigating damage, etc. A pure CC/Buffing/support/etc. class. Kind of like the shaman, but with little dps/healing.

    And what’s wrong with needing a priest for mind-control in Naxx, or a DK to trigger a Lich King encounter, or a rogue to sneak somewhere to trigger a switch to something? As long as it’s balanced (e.g. a rogue or druid or mage with invisibility can sneak to a key point), let there be some encounters that need 1 of a couple of classes. IMO, it’s what makes the classes INTERESTING. It’s what forces people to carefully consider where they invest their levelling time.

  8. Jack says:

    I’m still having a tough time with DPS being considered “meat in the room”. That’s ridiculous. And not because I play DPS. I’ve played several roles, including DPS. I’ve tanked with a prot warrior, DK, and even a little with a druid. I’ve DPS’d as boomkin, cat, DK, and a little as a rogue. What I’ve enjoyed more than anything is healing on my druid. It was healing on that druid, not too long after Wrath came out, when I figured out just how important DPS is.

    I PuGged into a group with a stoned hunter, two tanking specced DKs and an AFK warrior to run Old Hillsbrad. I like to think I’m a relatively good healer. I don’t think either of the DKs were particularly inept, but they were both tanks. The problem with the group was our abysmal DPS. The DKs took turns tanking. Which meant they also took turns doing awful DPS. Hardly better than the hunter, who was useless. And the third DPS wasn’t even there. Healing was a challenge through most of the run. When we got to the gauntlet where we have to escort Thrall, it became downright impossible. And it’s not that the encounter was so crazy hard, hectic or whatever. It’s just that killing things took so freaking long that I had burned innervate twice (back when it had a 10 minute cooldown), used a potion, gone totally oom again and we were barely more than 1/2 way through the escort sequence.

    Seriously. I couldn’t have asked for a better object lesson on the importance of DPS.

    Of good DPS, anyway. And maybe that’s the problem. If 1 in 3 players are bad (just fabricating the number to illustrate the point), then you’d average one run out three with a bad tank. 1 in 3 with a bad healer. About 1/3 of the time they’d both be good, and only rarely both bad. But almost every run you would end up with a bad DPS. So they become more visible. It is more common for a decent group to carry bad deeps.

    With the new LFG tool, I went back to try tanking again. Levelled a DK tanking Hellfire Ramparts and Blood Furnace and finally respecced to just DPS. I got so sick of dealing with the stupid DPS who are too impatient to wait for a tank to generate AoE threat or who can’t follow a marked kill order or think they should pull.

  9. Tesh says:

    Yossi, wildly different classes do have their place, but not in games where it’s a death march to the “endgame” when you can actually start playing in those roles in interesting ways. You even note that everyone plays DPS through the bulk of the game content.

    Crazy different classes work in Team Fortress 2 because matches are fast, brutal and dynamic. If you want to play a different class, it’s just a matter of waiting for the next round. The “next round” in WoW is currently grinding up an alt to the endgame, unless you’re lucky enough to be playing a hybrid to start with and have a Dual Spec on hold, complete with gear to match. Allowing everyone to fit into every role dynamically via alternate “tanking” or “healing” specs for DPS classes is simply an effort to alleviate that grind, and to give players who are “stuck” with monorole classes more options. Some won’t want those options, which is perfectly fine, but those who want options but can’t find them are stuck.

    There’s nothing inherently wrong with specialization and classes, they just don’t always work in a given implementation or setting. When changing your mind means months of grind, specialization stinks.
    .-= Tesh´s last blog ..Crayon Physics Birthday =-.

  10. Gnomeaggedon says:

    @Sarabian: in TBC our Rogue (awesome Rogue) often evasion tanked the last 1/2 of boss fights. Our tank (aong time friend) just didn’t cut it. But the rogue and healadin had an understanding. As soon as the rogue pulled aggro – he was the tank. Worked 99% of the time.

    @Copey. Funny I had an Ony10 like that last night.

    1st wipe everyone went down like a sack of spuds to the whelps and deep breaths. I was the last man standing. I was the one to blame. I needed to heal the OT next time and raid heal.

    I found it funny. I dare say they all had recount. If they looked the would have seen I had been healing everyone. Not sure what the tank heed was doing, but the MT would have died before turning the tank if not for me.

    2nd wipe once again last one standing, once again whelps and deep breaths. The MT healer died twice. We both know who was to blame… So I left them to it.

    Certainly a part of the problem is the casualisation of wow (as a casual player, not such a dirty word to me).

    People levelled out of STV in surprise, maybe pvp’d for 20 levels on their way to Northrend. Previously they would have been content to quest, explore and muddle through the instances.

    Once again they are broadsided, never expecting anything more than wrongly itemized iLevel 200 gear, they are now in Ulduar gear and being offered “one boss stands” with the raid weeklies.

    If you knew no better, I fact never intended to know better, wouldn’t you at least check out what’s available.

    Think godmode in other games. Hardcore players would never hunt them out, preceding the challenge. “Casual” players might find the cheat code, but once it’s presented to them, very few would skip the chance to experience the other 90 levels of the game… and I don’t blame them. I have too many old games that I only got to play 20% of.

    I think they need one more check box (or a few as another blogger suggested) on the LFD interface.

    X HARDCORE
    .-= Gnomeaggedon´s last blog ..Dear Healers, Do Your Freakin Job!!! =-.

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