Yes, I know, the post title is silly, and only vaguely relevant if you know who the Saints are. And I don’t mean St. Jude and St. Peter, either. I don’t think they play on the same team.

Hey, if you think it’s that easy to make fun new post titles for over a thousand posts…. you’re probably right, but I do the best I can with what I’ve got under the hood.

I have an amusing story to share with you. I think it illustrates a few telling things about what we can get used to, and what we expect to see, and how we can sometimes ignore things until confronted with the one when you expected the other. 

Now that I’ve vagued that up for you as much as I can, I’ma gonna tell a story.

Once, last night, on a server very, very close to home…

There I am, continuing my experiments in tanking comparisons.

I’ve been tanking on my Druid, followed by tanking on my Paladin, mostly in PUG situations and comparing the general feel between the two. A post on that might go up later today, more likely tomorrow.

This has, by necessity, required me to actually tank a lot with both characters. To run a lot of things. To test a variety of instance situations.

It’s been lots of fun.

Whenever possible, I prefer to only run with friends, but I wanted to run several things in the shortest possible time so as to really hammer home my impressions of the classes while they were fresh. Also, I was testing the ease with which strangers without restraint could pull aggro off of me. My friends are actually smart players, so they don’t do dat. To get idiots and out of control DPS meter chasing freaks, I had to resort to strangers. So, that means running purely random pugs.

I love Gnomeaggedon, and I’ve tried to follow the ‘be positive’ meme he started, but I’m just gonna have to warn you; there might be some mention of asshattish behavior on the way. Sorry, I know. 

I know!

Over the last week, I’ve run a few things.

I’ll make one observation, which I swear is relevant to the story.

One thing that I’ve noticed as a key difference between pugs and playing with friends, is that in pugs people whom I’ve never met before will announce what the group will do. Not ask what the rest of the group wants to do, or make a suggestion as to what they’d LIKE to do. Just flatly announce what will happen. ”We will be doing X on this run.”

I’ve noticed it mostly because I wasn’t used to that approach in groups of players before. It’s by no means unheard of, just not something I was used to seeing consistently myself, unless from the tank, and even then it would be about 50/50 phrased as ‘what we will do’ or ‘what I like to do’, which is a slightly gentler way of saying the same thing, but leaves you more open to counterpoint. 

I can’t speak for other people’s experiences, but to my mind it’s unusual behavior in a group environment among social equals for one person to dictate to the rest. It stands out as rude, an attempt to remove the power of choice of other people by putting yourself and your own needs first, and requiring an awkward confrontation if someone else has a different idea.

It’s a negotiation tactic used to control a discussion and get your own way. If you make a pre-emptive strike to state what WILL happen, rather than phrasing it as a request and asking for consensus or other competing suggestions, than what you have done is forced anyone that does NOT agree with you to have to confront you publicly, to challenge you, and to face the consequences of bringing conflict and potential drama.

For many people… not all, but many, the easier route will be to simply shut up, keep your head down, go along, get the run done and move on. Maybe put that person on ignore, maybe not.

I don’t want to give the impression that I think being assertive is evil, or that telling people what you expect them to do is wrong. Not at all, I’m not some head in the clouds idiot. If you have someone over you in a position of authority, or you are someone who has the responsibility of seeing to it that things get done, then this is normal and welcome. Having someone responsible in charge providing clear direction, assigning tasks, or setting work priorities gets things done. They may be the wrong things if he or she isn’t open to learning and listening to the opinions and experience of everyone that is part of their team, but it gets things done. 

What I’m saying is that, in my opinion, when you’ve got a group of strangers who are all there for the same purpose, are there by their own consent to work together and offer their contributions to the groups’ success, and you have one person start tossing orders around and making unilateral decisions, it’s bullshit. Your mileage may vary. :) 

Okay, so there I am, running things on my Paladin. I’ve had a lot of fun runs, solid learning experiences, good times. Quite a bit of stress, but my studies and research are paying off. I’m using a Talent spec, Seal of Command and Retribution Aura along with Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous to optimise 5 person instance threat generation.

A word about that. I ain’t a Paladin tank expert. If you would like to learn more from actual experts about Paladin tanking, I direct you to Ardent Defender, Blessing of Kings, Honor’s Code, Righteous Defense, and Tankadin.com (my apologies to those I missed – Paladin tanks have a big blog community).

However, that being said… I am somewhat used to the concept of researching a class for myself, once in a while. I know what I wanted, to optimise heroic instance tanking and threat generation. I did heroic Halls of Reflection last night, and as they say about New York, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.

I ran a few heroics with my friends Cal and Ely, as tank, heals, deeps. After each one, we dropped group to port out and then reformed to start the next one.

This time, after Utgardt Keep, I drop group, and Cal announces he has to go put some pants on.

I have to admit, Utgardt Keep speed run and guns are fun, but I know I’ve never had to go change my pants after running it. Still, best not to judge. (That’s a pally joke. Ha.)

So he’s off afk, and I go scurrying around farming some Titansteel mats since I want to have someone craft me the Saronite Swordbreaker plate tanking wrists, and I’m just 3 Titansteel Bars short.

After a bit, Cal says he’s back.

I queue up Looking for Dungeon, and as usual for a group with a tank, insta-form a group.

Boom! Halls of Stone loading screen forms.

I buff folks as usual, and right away the following pops up in Party chat;

  • [player1]: We’re skipping the two optional bosses.
  • [player2]: You pull as long as I’ve got mana.
  • [player2]: I don’t run out of mana so you better not stop.
  • [player1]: Let’s go, what u waiting for?

I pull the three dwarfs that like to pat near the portal entrance, we burn them down, and I’m thinking, “Wow, what if I wanted to do the two optional bosses? I can use the Emblems, myself. And what if *I* happen to be out of mana? Am I allowed to stop and drink? Do I need to raise my hand first and ask permission? Seig Heil!”

  • [player3]: What are you standing there for, go!
  • [player1]: Get moving, go, go!

Now, understand, the time sequence here is, 5 people appear in instance, I click the Pallypower buff button 5 times fast, then Avenger’s Shield the three dwarves and we burn ‘em down, then as I saw a third unfamiliar player name pop up in party chat, I paused for 1 second to actually LOOK at the names of who I was in group with, and what guilds they were from.

It almost takes longer to type that stuff out than I took to read the member names of who I was grouped with, and yet that’s how fast these were popping up.

What I was asking myself was, “How in the HELL did I end up with THREE asshats, when I joined group with TWO FRIENDS?!?”

Right about that time [player4] chimed in demanding I get my ass in gear.

That was when I realised the incredible mistake I had made.

I queued up in LFD without reforming party with Cal and Ely first.

Now, understand that I am actually IN VENT with Cal and Ely as this is happening. We’re chatting away, and I’m trailing off as it finally dawns on me that I’m all alone with these strange people, none of whom are guilded together, they are all spontaneously being making demands as I’m awakening to the concept that I didn’t intend to be available to join this group in the first place.

5 seconds have now elapsed without my moving, and as I let my friends in vent know just how incredibly dumb I’ve been, one of the pug group runs forward to pull the next group FOR me, to spur me on to action or something. 5 whole seconds! Omigawd, I know, right?

Well, that makes things easy for me. Incredibly easy. Every single one of the four players has shown the patience of a Mayfly, has been rude and demanding. I have two friends waiting to play with me, and I joined these morons by mistake anyway. My bad.

I grab the group that they pulled, take aggro and control them getting burned down, then grab a stack of Mana Strudel from the mage table, announce “You guys are on your own, go find yourself another tank to order around” and leave party.

I then spent the next 15 minutes of my random lockup hopping around Dalaran chatting. Cal went fishing.

For the rest of the night, every time I ate a Conjured Mana Strudel, I fancied I could taste the tears of selfish QQ flavoring the pastry… and it tasted delicious.

The moral of this story is, if I had zoned in to find out I was a dumbass for queueing, and nobody had said anything, or if people had done the customary “Hi! How you doing?”, I would have apologised to Cal and Ely for screwing up, but I totally would have run the entire instance.

If even only one or two people there were rude, or pushy, or demanding, I would have stayed and made the best of it. And it’s not like a tank doesn’t have a veto. As the tank, if I decide to run down and kill Maiden and get an extra Emblem for 2 minutes work, who’s to stop me? Is the rest of the group REALLY going to go on strike if the tank wants to pull a group of mobs? They may bitch, piss and moan, but are they really going to leave?

But when I zone in, and I’m greeted with four asshats… where is the incentive to care if I leave? Why should I endure your crap? What’s my motivation to be your bitch?

I hope you take away from this story three things;

  1. I’m a moron. (Big newsflash there, huh?)
  2. If people are friendly, even if it’s not what you intended to do, having fun with friendly people is the best part of the game. Why not stay and give it your best shot?
  3. You don’t have to be anybody’s bitch.

If you join a group and are treated with abuse… then leave, RIGHT THEN. You do not deserve anyone’s abuse, and you do NOT have to take it. Whether in real life or in a virtual world, if you are in an abusive situation, do not be a victim. Do not suffer in silence. If you do not wish to be in a confrontation, if you cannot bring yourself to speak up on your own behalf… then leave. 

You, and your time, are worth more than that.

43 Responses to “Who dat tank dat do dat?”
  1. Dracomage says:

    Mr Bear

    Been in similar situations with my tanks and healers. Nothing says to DPS: “Behave”, like a tank or healer that stands their ground.

    Pulling instead of the tank – let them die.

    Pull agro off the tank – let them die.

    Not doing optional bosses, welcome to hang around and wait until we are ready to move to the final boss. (if we do not vote-kick your worthless ###)

    It warms my heart, when DPS complains – but the power in 5mans lie with the tank and the healer. Get them unhappy with you, and you might have a fairly large repair bill at the end of the run.

    Draco
    .-= Dracomage´s last blog ..When RealLife calls… =-.

  2. Millea says:

    “For the rest of the night, every time I ate a Conjured Mana Strudel, I fancied I could taste the tears of selfish QQ flavoring the pastry… and it tasted delicious”

    This is my new favorite quote. :D

    I tend to run randoms on my healer, and like tanks, we don’t have to take crap from jerks. I routinely will drop group if people are asshats. I get flack from my guildies for it, but it is not how I choose to spend my game time.

    Go BBB :D
    .-= Millea´s last blog ..Screenshot Friday =-.

  3. Meadow says:

    I’m glad you got out when you did :) You are exactly right in your last two points, though I don’t know about the first :)

    I did want to make sure you know you don’t have to drop group to exit an instance, right? When you go into an instance with the LFD tool you get an icon on your minimap and you can click it to get the option to “Teleport out of dungeon”, and if you don’t drop group, you can then click it to “Teleport back to dungeon”, it’s useful if you need to repair or anything. It sends you back to where you were when you queued. You can also queue for your next dungeon from inside the first one, no group dropping needed. I don’t know if there was another reason you were dropping group though?

    Most of what I know about tanking I learned from you (I’m a dps/healer, but I like to know what that person standing in front of me getting hit in the face is doing) so thank you, and I’m looking forward to your post about the differences between pally tanks and bears!

  4. Sarabian says:

    I think you are dead on correct. As a pally tank, warrior tank, and resto shaman, I deal with that a lot myself. I am now in a good guild with good people that frequently run randoms with me, but have been in your shoes.

    It’s not easy to try to be a decent person in the presence of so much assness. I have tried and just can’t put up with it. I’m to the point now that if someone in a pug even once says “gogogo” or uses the “teeny bopper slang” terms – either they leave or I do. I just can’t deal with it any more. They say “wtf dood, u guna pll r what????” and I simply click the little green eye and “Teleport out of instance” and drop group.

    Cheers for a good guild with all adults in it.

  5. Spinks says:

    My pet bugbear is people who demand that the group does achievements. The only way I’m doing an achievement in groups is if it’s something quick and easy that we were going to do anyway, or I’m with friends who really want to do it. Or if it’s fun (which is none of the group ones :) ).

    But you’re right, a lot of people in PUGs are more interested in bossing the group around than looking for a consensus. I know when I’m tanking somewhere like HoS, I’ll ask at the start if anyone wants to do all the bosses and if even one person does, then we do them (it doesn’t take that long, despite the whining.)

    Still, the one thing you do have total control over in a group is whether or not you decide to stay.
    .-= Spinks´s last blog ..It came from the PUG: Move it, slackers! =-.

  6. Kaethir says:

    @BBB: Where’s that macro you said you made of my comment when you need it? LOL!

    @Spinks: I don’t mind if people ask if we do achievements (or ask if we mind giving it a shot)… I do that, occasionally, on the runs that I still need achievements out of… and I’ve generally found folks willing to play along. DEMAND, no, ask, sure I’ll give it a shot :)
    .-= Kaethir´s last blog ..Tankalicious =-.

  7. Rauxis says:

    I have met rudeness in various ways, especially on my new Paladin, but most often people are ok or even nice. My “Juwel” so far after getting into my second or third heroic after hitting 80 went something like:

    Whitemane (me): I apologize in advance for my poor DPS, I’m holy/prot specced but can’t really do either on heroic yet. If you can’t have that, feel free to remove me.
    Leader: welcome to 80 :P
    Player one: go of, we don’t need scrubs (or something of that kind)
    Leader: that was very rude – if you go on I’ll vote to kick you .
    Player 2: ok by me – White, need anything you can use here

    after that run I was prepared enough to go on as healer, tank gear still needs a lot of work

    enjoy the nice people, ignore the rude and have fund :D

    Rauxis, chosen of CAT

  8. Naturalregis says:

    Kings.

    Kings.

    Kings.

    KINGS!

    KINGS!

    KINGS!

    *gets Blessing of Kings*

    No, no… I meant Might!
    .-= Naturalregis´s last blog ..A Quick Shout-Out =-.

  9. Rip says:

    Had something similar in HHoR the other night… LFD, zoned in on my Prot Warrior (GS of 4662), immediately got:

    [Leader] “WTF is with these shittyass tanks??? Do us a favor and drop group”
    [Me] “Bite me… you drop group”
    [2nd party member] “Please, just drop group, we are all from the same server”
    [Me] “Nah”

    so I put them all on ignore, and stayed there 14 minutes… then left group.. hope they had fun waiting for the next one…

  10. Trevor says:

    I have a love/hate relationship with speed pulling. When I’m tank, I want to do it… mostly because it’s the only way five man content seems challenging. When I’m the healer or DPS, it kind of drives me nuts to not even have time to loot bodies before the tank is out of range pulling the next group. Why do I not bother to slow down and loot bodies when I’m the tank? I don’t know, I guess the challenge of multiple large pulls outweighs the loot when I’m bored spamming swipe.

    My attitude on achievements flows along these lines too. The other day someone wanted “Better off Dread” and I was all over it, “Woot, I get to speed pull dinosaurs!” I’m less likely to care about something like “Less-rabi”, though I’ll give it a shot for someone. It’s not really out of my way. I probably won’t do “Zombiefest” for you, it’s out of the way, slows down an already slow instance, and isn’t really challenging if you do it right.

    My personal pet peeves with asshats in instances is the guy who firmly believes that only amazingly over-geared people belong in instances. had a healer spend about 3 minutes trying to convince a tank that he sucked and should leave to do regular instances till he “geared up” (never mind that the guy was in mostly ilvl 200 stuff). He finally just left because the tank wouldn’t. Got a new healer and cleared the instance with minimal problems. I’ve had several people initiate vote kicks on perfectly fine groups because they felt someone wasn’t “pulling their weight”. stuff was dying just fine, but “OMG that guy is doing half the DPS I am, kill… I mean kick him!”

  11. Sinker says:

    You did the right thing. I have had similar experiences as I leveled my Prot Warrior. I had a hunter start pulling while people were buffing, I dropped group after he pulled the next pack of mobs. I got stuck with four members of the same guild, and was told not to pull any extra mobs because they wanted a fast run. The next thing I know they had a DPS feral Druid switch to bear and start pulling, so I bailed on the group. If I am there to tank, then all I ask is that you let me tank.
    .-= Sinker´s last blog ..Priestly Adventures =-.

  12. Crankyhealer says:

    Pugs like this are exactly the reason I don’t have my title or my pug yet. I run a lot (A LOT!) of instances, but I manage to fill them with 2 or more guildies, and usually the pug people are intimidated by a bunch of same-tagged guildies and behave. Except for demanding a battle rez. Grrr.

  13. Kattrinsaa says:

    As always bear, you rock. I wonder how many tanks that group went through before they got to the next room. Though i usually lose any conjured tradables if i leave the group.

    I really hates it when people try to speed my tanking up. yeah i’m going slow.. i’m still not quite up to scratch.. well maul at least…

    And if i don’t know the terrain, i’ll take my time looking around. i posted before about letting the tank pull. (that post got the most comments on my site ever.)

    As rare of a commodity as tanks and healers are now, the dps should treat them like gold, not a bag of rocks. (Taking them for granite??) but not so much that their heads inflate to the size of their furry butt.. :-P
    .-= Kattrinsaa´s last blog ..UI addons =-.

  14. Morphster of Aggramar says:

    BBB, you make me smile :) Just curious, what benefit is there to dropping group each time? My friends and I just right click the minimap button, empty bags, and q up again. If we like the strangers with us we continue with them, if not we vote them out.

  15. Rojan says:

    Unfortunately, a full group missing one member goes to the top of the LFD queue, so they probably got someone else in a couple seconds. The best thing to do is what RIP referenced above: announce that they are asshats and go AFK for 15 minutes. They can’t kick you, or do anything else. Go cat form and stealth/shadowmeld or zone out if they try pulling groups anyways to try and kill you.

    I hate being the tank for a group of 4 guildies. 90% chance of complete jerks, in my experience.

  16. Weetree says:

    It has gotten so bad for me that I now have a macro that reads “Fair Warning all, I am a bear tank with 60k health, have every achievement in here and will pull as I choose. You pull it – YOU kill it!” I am happy to sit and watch you do it. You get in front of me the healer will not heal you. You die we are not waiting for you to run back. Rez’s are conditional on my having made a mistake not your being stupid. Can’t deal with these rules – leave now, there are 200 dps waiting to take your place.

  17. Will says:

    I like this post; for your wonderful approach, if nothing else. You see, for two years I played a Hunter. That’s it. Just the one toon. And for a few different reasons, it became a bit monotonous, and I decided to make my first alt. I had heard that the Death Knight starting quest chain was awesome, so I went ahead and made a Death Knight. The opener was indeed awesome, and I’ve decided to level him up and try my hand at Tanking after being just a ranged DPS for two years.

    I hit 70 on him last night, dual-specced, and bought the crafted Cobalt tank set. (Man, but it’s weird having a toon in greens again.) I plan on trying my hand at tanking UK or Nexus the next time I have the chance. Being open about being a new Tank, of course.

    Sure, they’ll be Normals, with other sub-80s, and so I shouldn’t have too many issues. But the things I’ve seen done to tanks while playing my Hunter leave me a bit trepidacious. People often seem to fail to realize that everyone was new to their class or role at one point, and everyone was on the low end of the learning curve at one point.

    It isn’t in my nature to be a jerk. I don’t like telling people off. But I know full well that it’s bound to happen to me sooner or later. (Especially once I hit 80 and start going through Heroics to gearup. You know, what they’re MEANT FOR in the first place…) But thanks to you, sir, and a couple of other bloggers, I know that sometimes, when a person’s an asshole to you, you have to be an asshole right back.

    Thank you. :)

  18. LabRat says:

    Yep. My game time is time I paid for to have fun, and I have absolutely zero interest in putting up with the obnoxious on that dime. Usually what I do is have myself a comfortable seat and pointedly ask the pull-happy gogogoers if they are done being the tank until I get either compliance or a response sufficiently abusive to induce me to leave the group.

    What really burns me about “I never run out of mana gogogogogogogo” healers is that 99 times out of 100, they don’t understand that there’s more to tanking than being able to take the hits. It’s a bad idea to pull the whole freaking room for me because all but the weakest of my abilities that give me such great AOE threat hit *a maximum of 4-5 targets*. It doesn’t matter if my gear is good enough to take the beating from all of them because some of them are going to go eat you, full mana and all.
    .-= LabRat´s last blog ..Difficulty Curves Versus Cliffs =-.

  19. Iceveiled says:

    Excellent post. I just hate rude, impatient people in general, tank or no (I have a level 80 hunter and prot tank). Impatient DPSers need to realize that they are waiting 15 minutes in the LFG queue FOR TANKS (and healers). So STFU and let the tank run the show. This does not entitle tanks to be jerks either. The difference between a speed run and a normal run is 5 minutes. If you don’t have 5 extra minutes you’re playing the wrong game.

  20. Minos says:

    Pretty much every night I’m crabbing in guild chat about healers that won’t let me kill the misbehaving DPS. I’m ashamed to say, last night I couldn’t even get the mage killed who pulled more packs than I did in Heroic Drak’Tharon. A cloth wearer! I could’ve tried a vote kick, but I’m enjoying the meta-game of tanking just enough to get the jerk killed but not any of the rest of the party.

    As a side note: his excuse for it was that he “had to go raid”. This was the first thing he said after zoning in. It’s not my problem you can’t manage your time. If you’ve got more important things to do, go do them!

  21. Gnomeaggedon says:

    Nice… A BigBearHug!

    Quite a few bloggers took up the pigging heroes challenge, but have since found that they are struggling. TyphoonAndrew vowed to only write positive posts, if he couldn’t then he wouldn’t post at all… I think we had a week without posts.

    Ultimately I go at my own pace,sometimes fast, sometimes slow, but I’m not taking shit.

    For some reason I stuggle to heal tanks that pull everything in the 1st room of DK (at the end of the 1st hall). When we wiped ther last night the screen was filled with comments from the tank (it already was filled with orders, but now specifically directed at me).

    Rez me
    hurry up and reincarnate so you can Rez me.

    Ummm no, sorry, wipe = run you lazy bugger.
    Reincarnate is saved for oh shit moments when I die early, not for trash wipes 30 seconds from the entrance.

    Speaking of which it wa on cooldown after the oh shit moment in VoA25.

    They had to run in…. I wasn’t there to do it, I was already in Dalaran
    .-= Gnomeaggedon´s last blog ..Grow Up Australia! =-.

  22. Darth Solo says:

    Bravo, good job! Loved the story. I came across my fair share of asshats while pugging with my hunter but unfortunately as DPS you need to keep your mouth closed or else you’ll be in for another lengthy queue. In general though most people I’ve grouped up with in heroics have been really nice.

  23. Matheo says:

    Not a scant hour ago, I popped into a FoS random on my warrior, and the first set of mobs was gone. Sinking Feeling Number One. I then notice it’s an off-server guild: 1 paladin, two locks and a rogue. Sinking Feeling Number Two. These are either good or bad, either competent folks who want some fun n badges, or elitist jerks slumming it.

    “Do you go fast?”
    “I go at a brink but safe pace :)”
    “cuz we like to go fast.”
    “Everyone ready?”
    “gogogogogogogo”
    Gooooooooooooooo”

    And now I see why they have no tank just a leetle ways into the instance. If it’s one thing that burns me up, it’s that simple word, “go”. I may be a bear, but I ain’t your effing pet. You want something that follows your commands, head to Dun Morogh and get a widdle bear there. Trust me to set the pace and get the job done. Any prompting or pulling FOR me will earn you a repair bill. Long story short, they talked a good game, but the locks had terrible aggro control and the pally healer almost got me killed on simple pulls. “PuG and pray” is my new motto.

  24. Askevar says:

    Ironically, been having the same stuff happening… hence my own rant last night :P Good for you for not taking abuse!
    .-= Askevar´s last blog ..GOGOGOGOGOGOGO!!!!!!!: An “Angry” Tank rant. =-.

  25. bigbearbutt says:

    I read your post Askevar, and i liked it a lot. Very well said!

  26. Pete says:

    I love being a tank-star, lol.

  27. Cumeni says:

    This is the kind of stuff that really burns my bottom.

    Hi everyone. my name is Cumeni(coo-men-eye). I recently rolled a druid, and BBB has done a great job here helping me to understand the mechanix of my class. With that being said veering back to the topic at hand.

    I’ve been playing WoW off and on since the release. I have a good understanding of the game, I even have all the Collector’s Editions out there (vanity pets rule), and recently started playing again with my wife buying me Wrath CE for xmas(she’s the best btw). I really like all of the changes that have happened since release, but I also hate just as many. One thing has seemed to be constant. Common courtesy doesn’t exist out side of your guild. My personality is that I try to look at both sides of the spectrum before I make a comment on anything. Seeing this article has spurred the memory of an event I recently had.

    As I mentioned before, I just started playing again as of xmas. I thought it would be cool to do something new, so I rolled a Human DK. I thought, I’ve been Horde for ever and maybe I can get a good thing going and not have similar experience where people feel they can only improve their self esteem by flaming every newcomer they come across. Well that happened until I started to random heroics with pugs. I did as most people do. I ran a lot of the level 80 regular runs as I possibly could. Went on all the online databases to try to find gear to help my cause. Got myself a good hand full of blues, found a purple or two. Still was vexed with 3 greens and my sigil they give you in the starting zone, but I felt I was up to the challenge of the heroics. First run, told the group I was a new 80. Ran the instance, the group volunteered services to help not only complete the run but get all the achievements for it. Completed 3 more runs with similar results. On my fifth run, an asshat happened. We started an Occulus run with a Pally tank sporting a nice 43k hp, healer with just as much healing power, and a pretty strong deeps base. I was the low man out. Everything was running good till the boss fight. Then the Tank announced: “The DK better have 2k dps or else.” Boss fight came. I ran my normal rotations and did the best single target damage I could, I was Unholy at the time. I walkout out of the encounter with about 1850 dps. I thought I did pretty well with my spec. So did the rest of the group. However, the tank felt I was a fail. Even said so in chat. The group could tell I was a new 80 and that my gear and spec was pretty solid. I was built for group encounters not so much single target dps. Then some comment flew from group members about how some people have to work for their gear and aren’t in guilds clearing ICC in a single night or name a new toon that level 80 with only purples. The party leader checked my armory profile and like what he saw. But he just sat there. Didn’t even roll on the boss loot. I told him, I have great area damage, and what did my single target damage really matter since the last boss isn’t based on gear?

    I ended up leaving the group for the betterment of the group. Thanked everyone for his or her time in trying to help my cause and progress the run.

    I just want to know why people have to feel their life in a game, that has no real application in life, is the most important. If they’re like that in game, how are they in real life? I really wish people would take a moment to think in the real world. How is it that someone can have so low self esteem that they have to be little others or control others in game because their gear score is eleventy million? Seriously. Gear doesn’t equal skill or the right to control the world.

    I’ve taken what I can from the situation, now I’m back on Horde, as a druid, wondering, “Why did I wait so long to try this class out?’

    Sorry for the long drawn out story leading to the point. Attitudes like that really piss me off since it was people like that, (which played a major part in my wife not playing (side note: Dam you barrens chat). Why can’t people learn remember the basic things of life like do until others. It’s ok killing all other faction on site since that is what you do a pvp server. But, must we stab our own in the back get ahead?

    Thanks for your time Cumeni.

  28. Insertname says:

    I run mostly as healer these days, but used to tank and get really annoyed when people start pressuring the tank to go faster. That’s the reason I only tank for guildies these days. When people start doing the “gogogo” stuff, I simply stop healing them. After they die a couple of times they generally get the message. I read about another healer that announces it thusly: “annoying the tank earns the douchebag defuff which reduces healing 100%”. I’m thinking of macroing that. Although not all healers are willing to support their tanks. Last week I ran HoL as kitty with a newly dinged tank. The tank was going slowly (naturally) and the rest of the group was getting itchy. Then the healer loses patience and pulls one group plus the first boss, wipes us and drops group. As it were, I switched to healer and we got another three dps in about 10 seconds. We let them know the tank was new and they needed to watch their threat. No one had any issues with that. We had a great hunter that MD’d constantly and still managed to pull 5K DPS without once pulling off the tank. Did not have a single problem and having to pay some attention to what you are doing was actually more enjoyable that mindlessly burning through the instance.

  29. Jack says:

    Oh man, you’re so much nicer than I would be. I had two very similar experiences this morning just as the daily timer reset, except that I was the healer. Got in group 1, FoS, and a brand new level 80 put up with the other three players bull for the whole instance while they chain pulled and I did my frantic best to keep up. So we got to the final boss and the other three (all from the same guild), kick the noob, lol and pull. I just wtf left. Seriously. I’m not going to support that level of crap. Not even for 2 emblems of frost.

    Got in group 2 with 4 folks from another server, all in the same guild, just needed a healer. So I’m eating my haste food, the tank says “keep up” and off he goes. I still want emblems, I’m broke, I want to loot and they’re power running through, pulling whole rooms, not even leaving time to let me click the sparkly dead things. They bypassed the first boss, pulled the next room and I was just, “no way. I play this game for fun and this is not fun. Bye.”

  30. paxdruid says:

    Brother, your running random pug after pug and you can’t let the knuckleheads get to u. When I get the go go go stuff, I tell them “If you say go one more time, I will bear waddle the whole instance.” This generally gets them to calm down. I agree, there is no reason to spend time not having a decent time. If your not having fun, why are you playing the game kinda-thing.

  31. Suxxy says:

    When bear tanking I like still marking a skull to let dps know that’s the one I’m focusing on, especially in places like Nexus and the whirlwind guys in HoL

    As soon as there’s a group pull where the skull does not die first, my care factor reaches zero. I will usually finish the instance, but I won’t be marking, I will be mindlessly swiping groups (no maul or mangle) and not care if peeps pull agro and I will go at my pace, which may be slow or flat out depending on my mood.

    “gogogo” is the most annoying thing in a pug heroic, and will cause me to leave 3/4 of the time.

  32. jealouspirate says:

    This is a really fantastic post BBB! “You don’t have to be anybody’s bitch” should be one of the tips of the loading screen =)

    I’m a Resto Shaman, and I came to this same conclusion a little while ago. It was always so frustrating and discouraging to be in a group with rushing, demanding, and rude people. So much so that I felt I needed a break after a pug… a break from what was supposed to be my break in the first place. I decided that it wasn’t worth it.

    I still pug my heroics, but now I will not hesitate one moment to drop group if people try to “make me their bitch”. The emblems are simply not worth it. They are of less value than my enjoyment of the game and the respect any human being should be given.

    Side note about trigger happy dps, as others have stated: let them die. I have a 3-strike system. DPS pulls once, I politely say “[Name], please let the tank pull when ready”. If it happens a second time I say “[Name], stop pulling. If you continue to pull I will let you die.” Usually when this happens they think I’m bluffing… but then after they get back from their corpse run they’re usually less inclined to pull =)

  33. Deemzies says:

    Man,.. I like u!

    I’m mainly playing dps myself and been in loads of situations where a diva tank or healer starts making demands about achievements, skipping bosses, “fast run pls” etc. Without even polling to our needs or ideas. Hell, they don’t even start with a simple “hi!”. And if i’m lucky these groups do not turn into the usual “moron, asshole, retard..” because someone (not me!! ;p) in all this chaos makes the inevitable mistake. But on the other hand i’ve seen those raidhead 5800 gs prick dps pulling groups because they want “a quick run and the tank is a slacker” after which they often die and blame that poor tank. So the namecalling starts again. The conclusion is…shitheads are widely spread among the players of this game. The fact they can hide behind that tough looking character makes em incredible a-holes. Often the much demanded roles of tanks and healers boost the potential a-hole level…but it sure as hell does not top it of. And it comforts my friendly heart to see a post like yours giving all those poptard sniffing divas (dps, tank or healer alike) the middle finger.

    On an other note : i’ve been reading up on your beginner tank artcile and am enjoying the read. Have a lvl 15 bear ready to throw himself in the dungeon tool with a frirend dps and healer. But i can’t find the second part rightaway.

    cheers! D.

  34. Grimtorn says:

    My main (Grim) is a DPS DK, but I’ve been playing my Tankadin a lot lately. I’m still trying to get comfortable in the whole Tankadin thing, and even though I’ve researched and have some great people in guild I can (and have) ask questions of….I still move at a bit of a slower pace, and I’m still trying to learn/remember what my “ohsh*t” buttons are.

    I had an H HoS the other day where a warrior from my server felt I was moving too slow and was initiating pulls – mind, this was after I had already told them all I wasn’t comfortable moving fast, that I wasn’t geared or experienced enough for it. I asked him several times to stop initiating pulls. After about the 5th time he’d done so (and after he’d grabbed the 4 mobs that randomly charge and do the electric shock deal), I’d finally had enough and bubbled and left.

    I think part of the reason I’m getting burned out on WoW right now is because of all the asshattery, all the elitist jerks that forget that they’re not the only ones playing.
    .-= Grimtorn´s last blog ..In Which Grim No Longer Plugs Addons =-.

  35. Karinua says:

    I’m one of the dps who has experienced the tank or healer acting rude as well as the other dps from time to time. I do leave the group if people are talking without respect and acting up. I can wait for a group I can enjoy.
    My guild sometimes has two or three of us on or even four who need that one last person to come with us. For the most part, it’s dps we need. Sometimes it is a tank or healer. We know how to play with respect, have a good time, and don’t demand anything from anyone. Other than each person fulfills their roles to the best of their abilities. So not all partial guild runs are bad.
    Everyone starts somewhere. It annoys me to no end when I join a group with a new 80 and others in the group are insulting and impatient. It’s just uncalled for.
    As for the skull marking targets, it’s nice that you do that. However, it’s not needed. There’s a simple setting in the game. It’s called set focus. You also should have the setting target on target on. I just use set focus to track my tank easily. It’s not needed for the tracking of what your tank’s hitting absolutely. In any case, target on target allows you to tab when targeting a person and move to the target they’re attacking. It’s an easy way to make sure you’re on the right mob. Knowing of course when not to use it because there are times you should stick to one sort of mob while the tank may switch for aggro control. It’s just about being responsible dps.

  36. Kauket says:

    PUGs are so often John Gabriel’s Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory in action. It’s very easy to forget that there’re actual people on the other side of the monitor.

    I try to view the medium as irrelevant: whether I’m interacting in person, on the phone, via email, in a forum, or in a game, the other folks there deserve the same common courtesy. Some people, however, seem only capable of simulating politeness under the threat of being punched.

    Greeting people when entering an instance, thanking them for providing food (even conjured), healthstones and buffs, occasionally complimenting a nice pull, heal or boss take down–all actions that can help set the tone for a group. It worked the other day in an Occulus total PUG. One of the DPS said he was sorry, but feeling sick and needed to afk to go throw up. I replied, “Ouch, sorry. Shouldn’t be a problem for a bit. We just need to chase that mage around the platforms” and got mumbled agreement from the other members. The DPS made it back for the Maly fight, where we wiped due to some poor coordination. Happily, no one was cursing or complaining as we ran back. I offered to trade the sick DPS a bronze for a green drake, and suggested “how about we flee counterclockwise when he shifts so that we’ll be able to stick together” (coordination without sounding like a tyrant). We were back up at the top, but the sick DPS wasn’t back. I waited a moment, then asked if he was okay. He was sorry again and said he’d had to run to the bathroom, and thanked us for not kicking him. I replied that I was willing to be sympathetic to someone who was sick and let me know, and that it was the people who afked without a word that drove me nuts. Got a “seriously” and some “werd”s to that comment. We then smacked around Maly. I thanked everyone for the run, got a lot of thanks in return, wished the sick guy well, and left.

    Now what’s funny is that I’ve actually randomed enough to get the Perky Pug as DPS. I’m cheerful and patient when in my happy role, and I suspect that has a lot to do with the fact that by nature and practice I’m a DPSer and as a blood DK I’m pretty much indestructible in an heroic so there’s a lot of margin for error and underperformance. It’s so easy to be mediocre DPS, and simple minds do seems to be drawn to the apparently simple role. And DPS is so straightforward to quantify in game terms (just look at that number in recount!) that little attention gets paid to anything other than the number. I’m never ahead of the tank, but I am exactly a half step behind, hitting the skull or assisting off the tank if no skull is provided. If there’s a ranged mob that hasn’t been drawn into melee within a few seconds, it will be death gripped in and mashed before it can pester the healer. If my target mob is casting, it will be interrupted every time mind freeze is off cooldown. If I’m in a fire/void zone/etc, I will move out. If a damage spike is incoming, I will use AMS/IBF/VB, then death strike or rune tap to bring my health back up (it’s a rare raid encounter when I’m not my own biggest healer). And unless the PUG I’m in is quite exceptional, I’ll also be doing about as much damage as the other two DPS and tank combined.

    Tanking, on the other hand, makes me hella cranky (if only that could be used for bear rage, lol!) and I only tank when guildies are the majority. I do, however, make a point of welcoming the odd folks out by name since I’ve read a number of “lone outsider among 4 guildies” horror stories and don’t want them to think they’ve landed in one of those groups.

    I’m just glad there’re people who want and like to tank. I suppose it’s too much to hope that people who haven’t been socialized by real life will learn civilized behavior in game.

  37. Elegantdeath says:

    I do a ton of DPS. During an entire run, almost 100% of my attention is on the tank and what they are doing. I honestly keep quiet and do my job effectively (unless I have advice for some folks who seem new to an instance).

  38. Javan says:

    I’ve taken to letting DPS who consistently pull threat have the threat.

    The first time it happens, I’ll taunt & faerie fire for snap threat.

    The second time it happens, I just taunt.

    The third time it happens, I don’t bother unless it goes after the healer. And I tell my wife (who is usually healing) not to heal them.

    Now, exceptions like – a second pack of trash aggroed and the DPS was AE’ing and it got caught before I could Swipe – that’s a different story.

    But if I charge in, swipe and maul and you decide you want to a) not assist me and b) not watch your threat, then you aggro, you tank it!

    My guild’s warlock has learned that means he needs to pretty much stand on top of me for most trash, lol. And my guild rogue has his Evasion handy.

    Honestly, tho, if I’m pulling 6k+ TPS and you’re pulling threat, it’s not my fault you don’t know how to assist, threat dump, or change targets.

  39. Kiliani says:

    BBB, I love your attitude. I see it so rarely.

    I was just feeling rather despondent at the state of society in general and people in this game, after spending time in a particular thread on the Druid class forums… this post made me happy again.

  40. Kemonojin says:

    Kiliana: I decided that the way to be happy in the game a long time ago was to not read the forums. Between all the ‘lol noob’ stuff in the druid forums back then, and the gms going out of their way to not only not inform us of anything, but rather deliberately insult, it just wasn’t worth it.

    More on topic (Moron topic?): I agree with this… I hate seeing ‘gogogo’ and have snarled at my own guildies for doing it, in a guild run. ESPECIALLY in a guild run. If we’re stopped there’s a reason. Our druid tank is not well and occasionally has to leave the keyboard precipitously. If we get jumped by something, one of the other tank type classes (even if not tanks, they have the armor for it, like a death knigget or one of our multitudes of other paladins) and I can keep them up.

    I’m going to start using the ‘you have earned the ‘Douchebag’ debuff’ line, adding ‘If it stacks to two, you may be removed from the instance’. I’m a healer, so my queue times are less than a minute, for the rare times I’m even interested in doing randoms. My time online is limited, and I do not want to spend it listening to people be pen fifteens.

  41. John says:

    If they are really deserving, (You can no longer votekick for the first 15 minutes, and reserved for the greatest of PUG asshats) wait out the dungeon debuff while still in party, port out and go about your business. Paybacks a bitch.

    As I have only bear tanked pugs (no guild/friendlies) I’ve seen some real asses, there is a reason the queue is super short for tank/heals, who would want to deal with that?

    Also _Love_ the above poster for this line:

    “I’m going to start using the ‘you have earned the ‘Douchebag’ debuff’ line, adding ‘If it stacks to two, you may be removed from the instance’.”

  42. tankadin says:

    I was tanking Heroic Pit of Saron with two DPS friends the other day. We had a PuG healer (druid) and one PuG DPS. During the Krick and Ick fight, the healer shifts into cat form and proceeds to DPS the boss, presumably because we weren’t killing it fast enough. Without a healer, we nearly wipe, but manage to down the boss. We refill our mana, regroup and proceed toward the ramp that leads to the cave. The druid changes into bear form runs in ahead of me. We all stand there in shock while he quickly dies and the mobs proceed to slaughter the rest of us. Can anyone say “vote kick” for stupidity?
    .-= tankadin´s last blog ..Patch 3.3 Emblem of Triumph Gear Farming =-.

  43. bigbearbutt says:

    Omigod… tankadin, that right there is incredible.

    That’s the kind of shit that makes me want to FRAPS every pug I go on, in the hopes that I could show something like that for reals.

    I would so totally be rolling if a healing druid popped bear to take the ramp instead of me. That’s amazing.

  44.  

World of Warcraft™ and Blizzard Entertainment® are all trademarks or registered trademarks of Blizzard Entertainment in the United States and/or other countries. These terms and all related materials, logos, and images are copyright © Blizzard Entertainment. This site is in no way associated with Blizzard Entertainment®