Open Discussion!

Now that we’ve mostly gone over Druids and Paladins, in a very basic way, I wanted to throw the floor open to everyone to share their own experiences in tanking with either, or with both.

Before we do that, let’s address the single biggest point, one I saved for this post.

One of the biggest concerns people have for either of these classes, that they have shared with me at least, is “Yes, but how are they at getting aggro right off the bat?”

I did not previously nail this down, but the Paladin is fantastic at generating initial threat. With the Avenger’s Shield, Ret Aura, Consecration and Hammer of the Righteous popped in the first three seconds, it’s very hard for anyone to overcome that without serious effort or a blatant gear disparity. 

For the Druid, most tools have excellent single target threat generation, but the AoE starts slow and builds up over time. With two tools for group threat, Swipe and Maul, and Maul being more of a luck of the draw on which extra target gets hit, it’s certainly slower out of the gate.

The thing to remember, however, is that Druids have spammable threat generators, and can choose which ability to use at any given time, while Paladins have to manage their cooldowns.

It’s similar to how healing works, actually. One class has to work predictive, beginning to cast in advance of when the spell will actually be needed, while the other can pre-emptively spam HoTs and then wait to use an instant cast reactively.

What does that mean? It means that you shouldn’t think that the only difference between how you play a Paladin and how you play a Bear is the names and pictures on the buttons you click while you stand in one place.

While a Paladin can run forward, Avenger’s Shield and then drop Consecration and use that as his “King of the Mountain” spot from which to tank all comers, Druids have huge single target threat generation and no Silence.

This leads to the Bear style being more mobile, taking it to the enemy, and if the Bear wants to climb the threat charts, then choosing who to whack, and in many cases traveling to meet them on their own ground is the order of business.

One commenter, Bear Pelt, mentioned that for Forge of Souls where there is not all that much room for LOSing, they would find themselves running from mob to mob like their tail was on fire, and said that probably was not the best thing, but it had worked out allright so far as long as skull was taken down first and foremost.

In my opinion, that’s just how you SHOULD do it! Use your mobility, the rapid coldown on Feral Charge, the ranged short cooldown on Feral Faerie Fire, the ability to spam Swipe while running as fast as the GCD allows, Bash to interrupt, Maul, etc.

It does mean that you use marked targets. It does mean that you don’t group everyone up as tightly as a Paladin or a Death Knight does. And it does mean that, if the tanking standard people WANT to get used to are stationary tanks, you’re not going to be perceived of as “as good of a tank”.

The classes play out differently. They’re not the same class with different buttons. If you are having problems playing a Bear the stationary “everyone come to me” style, then why not try changing your gameplan up by running around?

In my experience, going off the numbers I’ve generated, on single targets the Bear takes over except when the Paladin is actively using taunt as part of their rotation. On groups, the Paladin is stronger. Much stronger.

Druids shouldn’t take that as a reason to complain or call for a nerf, in my opinion. Instead, I think that Bears should try to develop more opportunities to use that high single target threat output.

For example, as I said in Part 1, there is absolutely no reason for you to ride one mob down to zero hit points before you look elsewhere. If you have a marked target, then unload everything on that one target, watch your Omen threat levels, see where the DPS compares, and as soon as you judge you’ve got a big enough lead… switch to someone else to build massive threat on next.

If you use a nameplate addon such as Tidy Plates (with Threat Plates), then you can still keep your eye on the first target in case the Mage wakes up halfway in and suddenly does 9k DPS with crit bombs, but hey, that’s what Growl is for, ya know?

Swipe will still be great in overcoming most AoE and certanly healer aggro. It’s the people that unload on X instead of Skull that I have seen issues with… and your changing targets once you’ve built up enough threat will help tremendously.

If I’d played my Paladin for a lot longer, I’m sure that similar tips would have been learned by me to help overcome some of the tricky patches on that side of the pond. I’m still working on it and learning.

I have learned that Righteous Defense works easily for me by keybinding it with Vuhdo, and leaving Vuhdo up, so if Vuhdo shows me someone in the group has aggro (which does flash arrows on the Vuhdo nameplates) I can simply mouseover the nameplate and trigger it. Righteous Defense is a great tool… and I love it now that I have figured out a way for me to easily activate it when needed. (It’s the one that pulls aggro from up to three mobs off one targeted party member… and darn it, now I confused myself with the names. I think I got it right.)

Anyway, please, take the opportunity to continue to share your own experiences tanking with each class, what you’ve found that is or is not a problem in different situations, and how you learned to adapt… or what has frustrated you that you haven’t overcome yet.

Oftentimes, the problem you once had and found a solution for is the exact thing someone else is stuggling with, and would dearly love some help.

I hope you’ve enjoyed these three posts… and now, I shall return to leveling my Death Knight, who is 62 and having fun.

Take care, folks, and have a fun weekend!

29 Responses to “Tanking Test! Druid vs Paladin III”
  1. Firecroch says:

    Have fun with your DK. I love playing mine and while I leveled DPS I am getting a heroic tank set together so I can queue as DPS and roll on tank gear when it drops.

    I see warriors and druids being in one group with similar mechanics (mobile, rage, few abilities, semi-decent AoE threat, etc) and Pally’s and DK’s being in their own group with similar mechanics (non-mobile, good AoE threat, ranged threat grab, etc).

  2. Sarabian says:

    Just wondering, have you tried a warrior tank yet? Or might that be the last tank class you’re going to try? I love the comparisons and just wonder if there will be one about how you see warriors.

  3. dorgol says:

    I don’t tank on my Druid. Maybe I will in the future, but right now he’s still Resto.

    I *DO* tank on my Paladin and Warrior, though. And like I said in the Part I coments I love the differences. I love that my Paladin can run into a group and force that group to stay with me like glue. I love that my Warrior can take one target and lock them down through stuns and silences.

    If there was any one skill I wish I could take from my Warrior and give to my Paladin it would be Spell Reflect (I bet lots of people thought I was gonna say Charge :)). There’s just something very satisfying about tanking a caster using their own damage.

    If there was any one skill I wish I could take from my Paladin and give to my Warrior it would be Hammer of the Righteous (or even Seal of Command these days). I struggle mightily in the opening moments of a fight to maintain sufficient threat on everything. As I said before, my attempts at tanking Heroic Halls of Reflection have ended with wipes every time. The reason I’ve been unsuccessful is because I lose an add and either the healer or the DPS go down. So if I could turn every attack into a Cleave, I wouldn’t have that problem. :)

    I was originally really nervous about tanking on my Warrior. My attempts at tanking back in vanilla were only mildly successful. Things these days are much easier, enough so that I wouldn’t say one is really harder than the other. Going from what I’ve read and seen on my own Druid I think the same holds true there.

    I do find it interesting, though, to see the comparison of the OTHER Druid and Paladin roles:

    Paladins have a TON of abilities when tanking.
    Druids have a FEW abilities when tanking.
    Paladins have a FEW abilities when healing.
    Druids have a TON of abilities when healing.

    I wonder if that’s why we see so many Prot Pally and Resto Druid blogs… but fewer Holy Pally and Bear Druid blogs? Or maybe I’m just making a crazy correlation… :)

    A nice set of entries, BBB.

  4. Tesh says:

    I can’t offer much in the way of feedback, but I will note that I’ve quite enjoyed these articles. This is the sort of game mechanics analysis that I’ve not had the chance to do firsthand, and really like poring over.

    Thanks!
    .-= Tesh´s last blog ..Fudging Numbers =-.

  5. RaydenUni says:

    Very good, I saw the first one when I woke up, and then was pleased to find the 2nd later on, and the 3rd later on! I was expecting maybe one a day.

    My main is a druid who mostly runs around in bear and sometimes cat and I must say I agree with everything you say about the philosophy of bear tanking. it is very interesting to hear how Paladin tanking differs, and it’s not so much that they have different abilities, but that they approach the problem differently.

    I maintain that the reason I have difficulty healing on my druid these days is not a matter of skill or talent, but mindset. I am so used to not paying attention in between pulls and then focusing when I pull as the tank, that having to maintain focus and be ready to heal the tank is just so different than what I am used to that I cannot do it very well.

    Now I want to tank with a paladin. We’ll see if I can survive leveling. Paladin dps rotation is mind numbingly boring compared to cat.
    .-= RaydenUni´s last blog ..Demigod builds and balancing =-.

  6. Metaphoria says:

    BBB,

    Really appreciate your articles. One thing that I really like that you’ve pointed out (and a lot of players in game like to ignore) is the fact that bears aren’t stationary tankers. I do find myself running a lot, and I have been thinking–man, I really suck because I can’t keep aggro, I’m running from the Joker over there, to Two-Face over here, and all the while spamming swipe in hopes of pick up anything that I’ve missed. At the end of the instance, I find get grouchy comments from group members “silly bear” “you move too much” “you need to learn how to tank,” etc. From now on when I am approached with this remark, I’m going to reply with a simple–I’ve done my research on my toon–have you? Thanks for the tips!

  7. Sparky says:

    My 1st alt is a feral tank. My 3rd alt is a Paladin retri/holy/tank (do I have too many alts? yes yes I do) More, my main is a healer and in our raids 2 of our main tanks are a Protadin and Feral druid (or first main is a warrior and, well, I STILL prefer warriors as main main MAIN tanks).

    I love the Paladin for many reasons – when it comes to initial agro or group agro there is NO compare. They go from “pulling!” to “OPEN UP because i GOT ‘em” in 2 seconds flat. A warrior can’t match that and a druid – with the damn lacerate stacks – really can’t. I would judge both classes as pretty equal in terms of survivability. A paladin is probably more efficient to heal (more avoidance) but the druid more reliable (sponge + mitigation). As a main tank, I’d take Paladin over druid simply for that initial threat and certainly on trash packs. Just knowing everyone can unleash their cooldowns within 3 seconds of the fight starting even without misdirects is excellent

    That being said – bear has a LOT better cooldowns than paladin… so if you fear a beasting, the bear is the one to take

    But druid does damage. Even as a bear, more than even dk tanks, I find a feral bear not only holds agro and takes the hit but dishes it out too. It also comes with mangle – a lovely lovely buff that is NOT that common (at least not in our raids) and demoralising roar. The only thing a paladin has is judgements of the just (which is the same as infected wounds, thunder clap, icy touch and is so damn common it’s unreal).

    But, for me, the main advantage of a feral tank is it’s flexibility, especially as an offtank. Druids are the BESTEST hybrid in my mind. Battle res and innervate. Marrowgar whirling? Battle res, innvervate. Saurfang being taunted to the other tank? Cool – battle res, innervate, roots some blood beasts, bear and stun maybe pop a tranquility if things are messy. Festergut turned to over tank? Cat form time! A druid has options no other tank has – probably because a druid has so FEW tanking options

    As to ease…. maybe I use druid more – but it’s easier to me. Sure a paladin has huge aoe threat but they have to juggle 3 skills or so to make it work. As a druid I can generate sufficient aioe threat drinking a coffee while one hand mashes swipe swipe swipe swipe. Against a boss it’s mangle, lac to 5, then mangle/FF when off cd and lacerate when they’re not (I macro Maul into all my abilities). Unless it’s a boss with lots of movement, that’s 1 handed playing

  8. Kaelandros says:

    The way in which you’re using your Righteous Defense (three target taunt) is also the way I use mine, and 50% of the reason I have Vuhdo installed (the other reason being easy cleanse assist when the healers get busy). However, in case you were unaware, Righteous defense can also be cast on an enemy Mob.

    I’ve found that Vuhdo doesn’t always update with who is being attacked, and sometimes there are small insignificant mobs attacking multiple people with one real nasty also running around. Selecting the mob you most want the focus from and casting RD will actually cast it on their target and bring him plus two more to your face. At higher levels the gunship battle is a fantastic example of this. The riflemen from the other boat will frequently be attacking a healer or one of my DPSers on the Horde boat, and should one of the spawned adds oddly not pop out near me I can never me sure who to cast RD on. So instead I target the spawned add and cast it on him. This insures I taunt the add on our ship, and not the riflemen on the ally boat who constitutes a failtaunt in that scenario.

  9. Baberth says:

    Another difference in tanking between Paladins and Bears [I'm actually extrapolating via Warriors], is in keeping [de]buffs up.
    A paladin keeps up Divine Plea and Vindication [if spec'd] simply by hitting and using abilities normally in their playstyle. Their ‘equivalent’ to roars last 10 or 30 mins depending on which is used [blessings]. If Vindication drops off, it’ll be back on within a few seconds without even needing to pay attention
    A bear needs to keep track of debuffs – demo roar and faerie fire – and reapply them when they’re about to drop off [or wait a bit if more threat is needed from them]

    I primarily play a paladin tank, and the thing I miss on the warrior I’ve been experimenting with is what I’d call pre-emptive threat grabbing [consecration]. It is superb at grabbing mobs that are making a beeline for the healer.

  10. honorshammer says:

    There is a great little addon called Tauntmaster that will show you your party and who has aggro. When you click on their name it will either RD or HoR them.

    There are important aesthetic differences as well. Paladins are all about the shield. We throw it, we block with it, we slam it into people’s faces. Bears are all about the form. The Big Bear Butt if I may say so.

    The Devs really don’t get enough credit for the job they’ve done creating such distinct options for Tanks.

  11. LabRat says:

    Heh heh heh. I spent the entire Paladin tanking post mentally critiguing and drafting a comment along the lines of “I do x, y, and z differently and it is more efficient because…” and then I got to this bit:

    They get into, and are passionate about, the minutia of Paladin tanking. Adjusting and debating placement of the cogs, sprockets, wheels and gears, always seeking to fine tune the accuracy to that of the finest Swiss watch mechanism.

    To be blunt, players who seek out and love Paladin tanks seem to posses certain common traits; orderliness, stubbornness,a compulsion for carefully precise planning, and a control of potential variables.

    Paladin tanks are the stamp collectors and bird watchers of WoW.

    Well…. yes. And while my desk is anything but orderly, methodical, minute analysis is my bread and butter in almost everything I do. And we will not discuss my well-used copy of the Audobon society’s field guide. (I like the photos better than the drawings in Sibley’s and Peterson’s, the drawings are always misleading with regard to color even if they offer all angles.) I do have a bear alt I tank on, and I wind up feeling very flaily because I’m just not *used* to running around like that. It makes me feel out of control. It’s fun in a “falling down a snowy slope but not getting hurt” sort of way.

    A healing addon is actually very helpful in Paladin tanking just because of the sheer number of helpful spells all paladins get. I used Healbot for a long time, but found it too slow to respond, and too big and clunky; these days I use a combination of Grid, Clique, and Decursive. (I could handle cleansing with Grid and Clique, but since it’s so much lower priority for me I find it handy to have it somewhere else. Decursive has a small footprint. Also I am running out of mouse buttons.) Left mouse button is Righteous Defense, middle button is Hand of Salvation for over-excitable DPS when that lower single target threat is becoming an issue, right button is Hand of Protection for various tasks, up to and including “OH CRAP MY CLOTH-WEARING TANK HEALER”. I could have more, like Hand of Freedom, but as it is I’m running out of abilities I’m even *capable* of keeping track of and using reflexively, just due to sheer numbers.

    Thanks for this series in general; my co-tank is a bear, and while I’d already noticed a lot of the things you pointed out (we already have a running joke about how easy the Hill of Death pulls are for me and how hard for him, and how hard the gauntlet for me and how easy for him), it’s always helpful to have yet more insight. I feel like less of a noob in that I wound up having to hand the Infernals during ToC off to him- of course it’s easier for him even though they’re demons, with the way they keep breaking away there’s no way I can hold any of them still long enough for the my standard threat style. The whole thing may also make me re-think some of our assignments; we’re getting some froggy DPS now, maybe having him handle the big trap-skellies in Lower Spire would be a better idea than me doing it…

    Also, because I can’t leave this stuff out and remain me, it turns out…

    You don’t need to use Divine Sacrifice with Divine Protection since the 3.3 changes to the Divine Guardian talent. Make a macro that looks like this: /cast Divine Sacrifice
    /in 0.5 /script CancelUnitBuff(“player”,”Divine Sacrifice”)

    If you have high latency use a greater value than .5. That will cancel the DS after half a second, but thanks to the way DG works now, it will still fire and give you what amounts to a free raid wall without having to burn your DP cooldown and deal with the Forbearance lockout. Quite handy during high raid damage situations for a healer, or having a healer incapacitated.

    Also, when pulling, I find it’s much better spike threat to use your Hammer up front (I also keep it glyphed, this may make the difference), then Holy Shield, then Consecrate for maintenance; compared to our other multi-target threat abilities, Consecrate is pretty weaksauce. It’s better for padding the lead without having to tab around than for opening after the Captain America throw. I haven’t had to take down my armor aura in ages with this pattern.
    .-= LabRat´s last blog ..Operant =-.

  12. Klinger says:

    Thanks Bear! Great write up. I was actually browsing the WOW forums today looking for something JUST like this.

    Here’s mah story:

    I’m Ulfhednar on Kael’thas. Warrior tank. The description of the Druid tank sounds very, very close to how it feels to be a Warrior.

    You boiled down the Druid skills, here are the Warrior’s:

    Shield Slam – great damage, great threat, 6s cooldown
    Devastate – good damage, good threat, spammable
    Shockwave – good damage, good threat, AOE, Stun, 20s cooldown
    Revenge – good damage, mild threat, proc on block, dodge or parry
    Concussion Blow – mild damage, good threat, 30s cooldown
    Thunder Clap – mild damage, mild threat, AOE, 6 sec cooldown
    Heroic Strike – on next white swing
    Cleave – on next white swing

    Shield Block – increase block chance, 100% increase in block value, 10s duration, 1 min cooldown

    Heroic Throw – ranged pull, talented can silence

    Charge – fun

    I pretty much put the Threat dealing skills in order of use. You ALWAYS use Shield Block, mitigation is what Warriors are about. Then, ALWAYS pop Shield Slam after the cooldown. Hit a Shockwave next followed by a Devastate or two. If Rage permits, and it usually does, attached a Cleave or a Heroic Strike to your next hit.

    Since the nerf in damage of Revenge, a lot of Warriors have been talking about not using it, but after 20+ runs in the past two days, it still does good damage for me – and threat isn’t even a problem if I’m using Shield Slams. So I toss a Revenge whenever it lights up and I’m not busy doing any other moves.

    On AOE pulls, hit a Thunder Clap when needed, but basically the Shockwave will put you up on threat and the Cleave with some tab-target switched Shield Slams and Devastates is typically MORE than enough.

    Concussion Blow is a great stun for casters and we’ve also got Shockwave (stuns) and Shield Bash (interrupt + talented 3s silence).

    Just like with the Druid, I know what each does or can get an idea from the skill name alone.

    I think one of the things I truly enjoy about Warrior tanking is the mobility. With the Warbringer talent, we can use Charge in battle and we can also stance dance to Berserker for Intercept or tag our way to a buddy with Intervene (which can break snares). There’s really no way to stop a Warrior from coming towards you.

  13. Anlyra says:

    first off I’ve been reading you blog since i first started Tanking with my bear in BC. this is my first comment, huge fan btw. since then I’ve leveled a hunter and a pally to 80. That said wanted to comment that FOS is almost as crazy with a pally. it usually entails tagging one of the casters with a taunt and then pull one of the others in with a shield throw. then heading to the nearest caster and starting my rotation, hoping the first mobs still wants to kill me, sometimes i need to run over and smack it around a bit.

    As for lvling the changed seal of command helps a lot. anecdotally i consistently do higher dps then the dk bear and warrior tank in my guild. only the bear outgears me so it might not mean anything.

    anyway thanks for all the great posts bear i think your awesome.

  14. Cumeni says:

    BBB I just wanted to say that this is a sweet class report. I believed you said before that one great machanic about this game is the tanking. Because then one way to tank. Being able to see the difference between a Paladin and Druid in regard to tanking is very good info to have. I heard your working on DK, that will also be nice to see, since I have a DK that I would like to tank with but don’t have a clue on whats the best route to go. It would be nice to see what you have planned with that class. I’ve noticed that you CAN tank any tree with DK but I hear the draw back is, there’s alot of situational tanking, and not real clear across the board.

    I do have a request. I know you can do a panzerkin, but I would like to see some hard facts on a Mage tank. I know their out there. Whats the chances of you being able to look into this unique breed of tank?

  15. Holly says:

    Sure there is, tangling roots, wait for the first break, cyclone, and cheetah away!

  16. Jey says:

    I find I interesting that you say the bear tank is all about moving around because just the other day I was thinking the same thing after inturrupting a mob… I’ll explain. Feral charge has the usually unused side effect of inturrupting spellcasting however it is not often used because you need to be far enough away and it is an immobalize so it isn’t useful for moving casters. I found myself tanking a caster in ICC and only having to worry about that one mobwhen I started casting. Immediatly I started strafing out of range and then charged him when I was far enough away. And I while this is a bit long winded of an explination I found myself thinking that it was slot of movement and work for one inturrupt…but I like that style so I roll with it. I would make an interesting parallel to prot pallies but my experience with them is limited to leveling to 15 then stop playing because they are kinda uninteresting to level compared to a Druid.

  17. Russ says:

    Thanks for these articles, BBB. I’ve really enjoyed reading them; they are great comparisons between the two classes. Also, they not only reassured me that my movement-based style of tanking groups with more than one caster should NOT make me feel like a noob, but also gave some nice tips for handling those situations. Much appreciated!
    .-= Russ´s last blog ..Some thoughts on online privacy =-.

  18. Earthsong says:

    I had a warrior, then paladin, death knight and finally druid tank. I think I like the druid the best though the others have their own merits.

    With a DK you will want to give three different Spec a shot at tanking. But I’m sure you will have lots of fun doing so. Personally I found frost to fit my concept of tanking the best, and the psycho speed people want in heroic runs.

  19. Cornfedhick says:

    @Klinger: The Warbringer talent that us warriors have is best utilized when our 3 types of charges (Charge, Intercept, Intervene) are all set up in a single macro. So when I press my macro I Charge, if its on CD I Intercept, and if I have a party/raid member targeted I Intervene.

    I like playing a DK tank because we don’t have to worry about blocks and shields and all that, just reach the Defense cap and then stack Stam and Dodge with some Parry thrown in here and there.

  20. seblatan says:

    nice post :)
    I have 2 tanks, a pally and a bear so i was interested when reading upon your posts.
    whenever im tanking with my pally its always: hmm wish i could swipe these and when im tanking with my bear its sort of: damn consecration would be handy hehe. so a pally bear would be my ultimate goal in next patch :)
    i have a personal preference for my bear cos i really like the dash (both bear and cat) abilities and im feeling more confident while tanking in bear.
    It feels more natural while tanking… but both are fun.

  21. Nightwhisp says:

    /standing ovation

  22. ari_ says:

    I just wanted to say: OMG THANK YOU!

    I’ve just learned tanking with a paladin, levelling him through instances in Outland – he just hit 70. Now that a friend just hit Outland level as well on her healer, and I have a druid hanging around at 61, I thought, hey, we can group up and I can tank on a bear, too.

    And I just did that the first time yesterday evening, and oi! So much yes on the differences, and your post was incredibly helpful in showing me what I need to do really differently on a bear than on a paladin. I started to get a lot of it during the 3 instances I did last night (lot more target switching, for example), but charging around! Yes, that will definitly help.

    I do think I prefer paladin tanking, but I now have a much better view on what exactly I need to work at to be a better bear.

  23. Shedim says:

    I found this very interesting. I have a raid geared Pallie tank at the moment and am incredibly bored with the rotation and rigid playstyle so I’m in the process of swapping my retired Boomkin over to a Bear. =)

  24. Daxlim says:

    I found this thread a bit late, but because I started my tanking “career” with a druid tank, and now have a paladin tank for a while I love to read other oppinions about both of them. I feel the same way about both. The whole “paladin tanking is facerolling” argument is such nonsense, even though I do agree that some things are quite simple for a paladin tank, like holding strong AOE aggro, while also keeping the skull under high threat, utilities like righteous defense, resistance aura’s and hand of freedom help alot. But there are other things simple for druids, like keeping aoe threat while moving, making those gauntlets almost a joke on druids, it’s just run (or walk backwards) and swipe, also not being able to get silenced (or in rare cases, mana burned) is also great, the instant dps mode when not having to tank for a moment is always nice. I do play my paladin a bit more, but that’s because she raced past my druid gearwise. It’s a seriously big problem for me to get geared when all those dps are aiming for the same gear, especially weapons. Gearing up the paladin was a breeze, the only hard thing to get was a good shield, but it’s certainly not as important as a good weapon. I truly wish that was different for bears, losing an upgrade too many times is not only demotivating, but it can also get you replaced if you fall too far behind on the other tanks.

  25. Spawnofmoose says:

    I personally have a tankadin and a bear tank (sorry BBB, I’m Horde =P).

    I like tanking heroics way more with my pally for 1 reason. AoE Threat.
    I don’t know if I’m broken on my druid, but I cannot hold all the onyian whelps off the start of p2. I have to rely on the warrior, Dk or pally I’m with. I understand why they put me on whelp duty for whelp pickup throughout p2, because I can swipe and aoe at will to pick up stragglers. But in all honesty I believe swipe needs a threat mechanic. In order to hold a group or 3 in a heroics I have to swipe spam, get an MD or Tricks and swap targets to toss a mangle threat or more random maulx2 to make sure the big threat abilities hit other targets. Otherwise I have a dead lock or mage.

    Also, you forgot to mention something with initial aggro on protadins, and I always do this on bosses, so DPS can follow heavy off the start. Avenging Wrath + Hand of Reckoning + Avenger’s Shield. It’s about 15-20k threat on the initial pull, BEFORE I even get to melee range. Throw that on top of the MD or tricks on you, there is no way to lose threat.

  26. tankadin says:

    These three druid vs paladin articles are awesome. I’m going to post them over on my site (http://www.tankadin.com/) and recommend that people read them. They really give you some perspective on what it means to be a paladin tank.

    I started out playing a combat rogue just before BC hit. Once I got to 70, I rolled my paladin tank and leveled protection the whole way. I stopped playing my rogue completely. There’s just something about the paladin tank that just feels right to me and I can’t really put my finger on it. My poor neglected rogue is now my bank alt.

    @Spawnofmoose,

    I used to always lead off with Avenging Wrath (wings) at the start of the pull, but one of the posters on my forum pointed out that you’re really wasting a lot of it between the time you hit the wings button and run in until you actually drop consecrate and get into your rotation. This is especially true if you consider how much threat you get from seal of vengeance once it hits 5 stacks. It’s actually better to pop your wings a few seconds into your rotation so that all your threat generating abilities benefit from the wrath boost, including the stacked vengeance dot.
    .-= tankadin´s last blog ..Patch 3.3 Emblem of Triumph Gear Farming =-.

  27. johanullen says:

    I love these 3 posts and as I recently started playing with my druid again, rolled 5 years ago, maybe I should start tanking with him too, atm I just play with him as healer which is very fun.
    .-= johanullen´s last blog ..Patch 3.3 Emblem of Triumph Gear Farming =-.

  28. johanullen says:

    Hmm, I’m posting quite a lot here now…

    While reading this about single target threat a memory of doing OS-25 with a bear as main tank and me, a paladin as off tank, something like 8 months ago. The bear was better geared than me I think, at least he had more HP and that is how we compared in those days, and that is why he was MT, but he couldn’t build any threat for some reason. I was really trying not to pull trash of him but it was nearly impossible, basically I ended up doing only auto attacks.

    Finally at the boss I was to pick up trash and he was to keep the boss, safe to say we wiped and I suggested we’d switch. We wiped because the dps couldn’t do any damage, being too afraid to aggro the boss.

    I don’t know why he couldn’t build threat, it must have been something he did seriously wrong, and me not knowing anything on how to play with druid could not give any advice either.
    .-= johanullen´s last blog ..Patch 3.3 Emblem of Triumph Gear Farming =-.

  29. deathy says:

    i must admit, lovely posts, and while you are generally correct about paladin tanking mobility issues (being one, have encountered it way too much in the uld days), with ICC paladins have gained a bit of mobility due to undead trash/bosses. assuming you add the small glyph that offer 1% extra dmg against undead, from start and throughout the fight that 1% ends up ammounting to quite a bit. The example from POS you offered is rather easy to overcome assuming you know when to use AS (and on what) and ofc, being glyphed for the extra HOR hit. Holy wrath will do miracles for when you stop in the middle and leaving a consacration on your way up tends to get the 1 little skeleton that passes by (simply because he’s too far and you know he won’t do enough damage for you to be bothered to go back for him)

    The 969 rotation is given as a best TPS one, however it must not be kept to the letter (especially when in the process of pulling mobs) and assuming you’re not in a pug, people in your grp will have enough brains to know that you will need 2-3 seconds to grab ALL the mobs before they start aoe. So yes, you will not pull your usual 11k TPS, but you should do more than enough to keep them all around (still, as you said, you just can’t jump around like a bear does, no matter how fat he may be)

    Regarding paladin tank MT, with current game mechanics it’s true that we have the highest TPS, however, i would still prefer a warr or druid for the simple fact that paladins (as far as i noticed) still can’t take “slow” and hard hits well. not to mention fights in which having a CD every minute or so is a must (example LK’s soul reaper, and yes, this implies no tank switch just because we’re lazy). As for mana, once you actually learn your class, you should have no problems at all (excepting perhaps vezax which is really a bitch when it comes to this). Between DP, BoS and “forgetting” to do a HS in your rotation (just so you get a bit of dmg to get some heals), neither hcs nor raids are a problem

    From my experience, the two very different playstiles of the two classes make them almost perfect for tanking partners. I’ve went to raids with druids, other paladins, dks and warriors. The ones i’ve always gotten along with the best, were the druids. Whatever was leftover from the pack i pulled, would get picked off by the druid with relative ease (and/or vice-versa, but perhaps not with the same ease).

    As for a last line, long live “Divine Holy Shield of Righteous Hammering”

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