Coming from Blizzard is a pretty surprising, thorough breakdown on changes to upcoming raid lockouts.

Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

We’re continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we’d like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
 
The first of the refinements being made is that we’re combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn’t apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
 
We’re designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we’ll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They’ll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
 
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) — Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) — Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
 
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you’re able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
 
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
 
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don’t plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
 
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
 
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you’re a big guild or a small guild the choice won’t be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
 
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We’re eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

This… this is something I did not expect.

I love it, don’t get me wrong, I just never expected it.

Perhaps I’m prejudiced after all. I have long considered the current structure of rewards for 25 person content being significantly better than those for 10 person content as being unfair, based on the difficulty of the challenge.

I say again, “as based on the difficulty of the challenge.”

For anyone that did both 10 and 25 person raids at the same gear level, it was frequently more difficult to do the content at the 10 person level, based on every single person having to bring their “A” game.

I’m talking about when Wrath first shipped. The people doing Naxx 10 did NOT have Naxx 25 gear. They had Naxx 10 gear, and Heroic loot.

And I’m not talking the new loot, I mean pre-ToC/Icecrown Heroic loot.

And no Frost or Triumph or Conquest or anything but Heroism emblems.

Do you remember? Emblems of Heroism, Heroic loot, and the awesomeness of Naxx 10 drops.

Where killing Kel’thuzad on 10 man mode dropped singificantly better weapons than anywhere else you could get.

Oh yeah, THAT level of content.

With fewer players, fewer overlapping classes and lower gear levels per the content, NO 25 man raid drops in the group, the 10 person raids played by 10 person raid geared players were just more challenging than the 25s.

I didn’t mind, and neither did most people I think, because at least from my point of view, I felt that the reason the gear was of greater power in the 25 man versions was simlpy to reward those that put up with having to herd 25 cats into some form of reliable group.

I’m serious. The challenge in the content was easier in 25s, but good lord, that’s such a higher level of stress to deal with. I’m not joking, I’m not being facetious, 25 person raiding is just far harder to organize.

If you judge the rewards on that basis, well, sure. Give the people willing to put up with a 25 person raid group better gear. I shall not envy them.

That’s why this announcement floors me.

I know that many people have lamented having to pug in 25 person runs in order to get gear that will better help them in their 10 man guild groups. Having to pug with strangers, in chaotic environments, in the hopes of improving their own capabilities for the benefit of their guild. Ouch.

I also know that there are people in progression raid guilds that get serious burnout from having their raid leaders expect them to run both 25 and 10 man version of raids in order to maximise gearing speed and Frost rewards.

What is the downside for this announcement?

Well, for me, none. But regardless of what some folks might think, I don’t consider myself the center of the universe.

Unless that universe is composed of bacon, in which case, I am it’s little god.

No, the downside is, there had better be enough raid content present in the game to keep raiding guilds happy each week, if their characters have only one lockout per raid instance regardless of size.

Will we see a return to 3 day lockouts? Ouch. Will they really have enough of the smaller raids ready to roll to prevent raid burnout between content patch releases?

I’m sure I’m not the only one that remembers the drought of raids in Wrath after Naxx had been run every week for 3 months, and the whining that followed. The seemingly endless, perpetual whining.

For myself, in my own little world, this whole thing sounds groovy.

Let me foresee the future for a second.

I’d bet that, with that system in place, content is going to start feeling very, very difficult to everyone. And that makes me freaking ecstatic.

People are so used to overgearing their content, and then bitching about “EZ mode” challenges.

It’s like people have put out of their minds older styles, and forgotten that Blizzard CAN design any difficulty of challenge they’d like. They choose NOT to make crazy stuff for everyone, and they choose to let 25 person gruops get better gear they then carry back to their 10 perso attempts.

They don’t have to. And now they’re saying they won’t anymore.

Everyone will have one set of gear and content tuned to a raid instance. Talk about a massive shock to the system.

Oh, dear Blizzard, let me praise you, for I foresee a golden age.

An age when mana is reduced for healers across the board, and content is tuned to require skill at crowd control and it’s frequent use, and DPS have to choose between crap AoE damage output on trash or very solid focused single target damage, where everyone doing a certain level of content has the same gear options available to them, where a Lich King kill would be a Lich King kill, without a qualifyer of how many people were in it, and finally…

Where you don’t get people sneering at other players because their guild has fewer than 25 raiders.

Will this golden age happen?

Damn me, but I think Blizzard is really trying their hardest to make it so.

If they’re not careful, I’m going to become a kool-aid drinking fanboy.

39 Responses to “Blizzard announces Cataclysm raid lockout changes”
  1. Sarabian says:

    Me too! This sounds awesome from the point of view of someone that rarely does 25s. Mainly cause I don’t really enjoy 25s. Now I won’t be penalized for it! WOOHOO!

  2. Sarabian says:

    Is what I think I was trying to say…

  3. Sarabian says:

    Ok, I won’t try to quote any more. Sorry.

    I tried to quote “If they’re not careful, I’m going to become a kool-aid drinking fanboy.”

  4. Nina says:

    “Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.” – would seem to me to hint that this is the structure of the first tier of raid content that’s coming out. Hopefully they’ll be different enough in flavor and ambiance that it’ll seem like a true change.

    Well done, Blizz.

  5. Kae says:

    Amen, brother bear. I am so tired of being looked down upon by 25-man raiders who waltz through tens like they’re a candy buffet table… or questioned on my healing methods because I can’t just sit back with my thumb up my roots blanketing a raid with rejuv and expecting the tanks to stay alive. Taste my ten-strictness! RAWR! ;)

  6. niceas says:

    /raises a glass to the bear :)

  7. Khane says:

    OMG!
    I’m kinda wordless about that, at first sight, me as a person that love to raid every week both 25 and 10 man, I could say this is stupid!, but let’s wait to see final results, I really hope to be wrong.

  8. Wikid says:

    Awe, go ahead and drink the kool-aid. It has less sugar than soda.

  9. Minos says:

    Unless that universe is composed of bacon, in which case, I am it’s little god.

    New Cataclysm zone: Elemental Plane of Bacon (78-82)
    Remember all the boars you killed in previous starting zones? They’re back, and they’re pissed. But they’re also delicious.

    More on topic, as a 10-man raid leader who enjoys the occasional 25-man with another guild or pug, I still think this is a good change. All of my scheduled raiding is 10-mans with my guild, but I feel compelled to be on other nights just in case one of my friends has a spot. Not being able to do both will remove a lot of that uncertainty from my schedule.

    On the other hand, without the boost from 25-man gear and extra emblems, my guild’s progression will probably be even slower than it is right now. Multiple short raids will defuse the frustration, though. Working through the Lower Spire of Icecrown was rough, since we didn’t have the option of going to another boss after getting stuck on one for a long time.

  10. Jen says:

    Maybe I’m not understanding something. If we can only defeat a boss once per week whether on 10 or 25 mans with the same rewards, why would I put up with the hassle of a 25 man?

    P.S. Love your blog.

  11. Malificient says:

    If you’ll recall back a few months ago, I commented (for the very first time) on a post here, recommending this very thing. Since that comment, I have stepped down from raiding due primarily to the pressures of running dual 10+25 raids.

    Needless to say, I’m thrilled about this announcement. It is entirely plausible that I’ll be going to back to raiding come Cataclysm, albeit only in 10s.

    Additionally, a benefit that’s not being heavily discussed as of yet: merging raid lockouts fits nicely with Cataclysm’s theme of leveling new alts. There’s nothing saying you can’t do multiple raids of the same dungeon per week; they just have to be on separate characters. Those with plenty of time to play will have multiple geared characters, those with less time will have only a few. Both will be at or near equal gearing, and fully capable of playing together on an equal footing.

  12. Ndiayne says:

    I am cautiously excited about these changes, just like I am about all of the other changes to classes and mechanics. I am 100% psyched for the world changes, however. =D
    .-= Ndiayne´s last blog ..Earth Day! /treedance =-.

  13. Kattrinsaa says:

    in the words of rabbi tuckman, “This is wonderful news! Hold on a second i’m on my last client.” ..snip.. ..scream.. put a little ice on it, you’ll be fine.

    This gives incentive for us altoholics to get more of our toons up to max level, perhaps there will be less guilds putting in main only rules. You can’t run that character in the raid and get gear, it’s an ALT.

    no, I was never in a guild that had drama like that.. why is my nose suddenly getting longer? i’m not in tree form, i’m not made of wood….
    .-= Kattrinsaa´s last blog ..My pet: The liche king =-.

  14. scaresome says:

    Yeah, I’m a fanboy too…
    I remember (I think) in BC not getting my mount at 20 like they do today. This means that I ran and ran and ran…a lot. I look at the noobs and think of how easy it is for them but, y’know; it’s okay. No one should have to do so much heavy lifting in a game.
    Blizzard releases its new content and it’s hard stuff. You needed the gear from earlier hard stuff. Then after a while its not so new and Blizzard releases some emblems. Now those who are not hard-core can go see the content. This is great. 10/25 man raids drop the same stuff; great, we don’t have to be cutting edge and try to farm it, work at it; instead we can go in and play.
    Because that is really what we want to do – play. Play at our crowd control, work on our toons but not sweat about min/max; we want to go do fights that challenge us but do not stress us or make us /epicfail. Everyone should get to play who pays the bill, if we don’t see it the first week of release; that’s fine with me. It will be the first time I, myself, has seen it and that is all I care about: me!

  15. bigbearbutt says:

    Minos, I massively loled in real life.

    Katt… but Ming Ming is da bomb! I mean, she reminds me of SO many people I meet in WoW…..

    Roguewind… if they let anything, ANYTHING in terms of usable loot be available only in 25s, then the only status that matters will be wearing that gear.

    That’s the sad way the pointy little minds think. There HAS to be a way to segregate them from you. I’m glad they’re being so definite about it.

  16. Steevee says:

    *happy dance*

  17. niceas says:

    @ Minos

    I’m hoping that we see raids set up so that they are still multi-wing affairs – so if you have 5 bosses, you have two wings you can try, each with two bosses, and that upon completion of both wings, you can deal with the final boss in the instance.

    I’m not holding my breath though.

  18. Kattrinsaa says:

    @BBB yes, i know, i can still try to escape them.. noise cancelling headphones FTW..

    I start physically twitching when i hear the theme muzak start. and if i walk by the tv I have to look away else my eyes might burn out, as it is, if I hear much of it my brains start leaking out of my ears..

    oddly enough, i’ve suddenly developed a liking for celery….
    .-= Kattrinsaa´s last blog ..faceplant halls of stone =-.

  19. Big Heals says:

    I was expecting more out rage, but it appears this change is seen as good by a lot of people. Me included. Just the idea that Blizzard is trying to slow down the pace of raiding is a good thing.
    .-= Big Heals´s last blog ..Goodbye to Johnny Train Set? =-.

  20. Alburet says:

    BBB long time reader first time poster. I have to say to my strict 10 man raiding guild. WOOT! We rejoice. Most of the complaints I’ve seen on tis are from 25 main hardcore raiders. As I’ve said elsewhere if ya love to raid that much thats fine bring an alt or 2 and there ya go back to 7 day raids. I know the people I run with are all happy danicng over this annoucement. No longer shall the 25’s be able to waltz though with their 271 gear and snear at EZ-Mode, and look down on us.
    And yes i remember Naxx when it first came out with heroic emblem gear and maybe if ya was lucky with rolls naxx 10 gear. I remeber those days and I long for them back. Maybe now we shall see them return.

  21. Kolan says:

    Wow. Those changes look fantastic.

    Pity I had to uninstall the game. :-(

    Cheers

    Kolan

  22. orc shaman says:

    Now, please – 5 person heroics where difficulty scales with gear. Job done.

    Overgeared raiders blowing through heroics is the one bit of WoW that’s getting me down at the moment. It’ll never happen though – Dungeon Finder having to group players by gear level would probably make it difficult to design :(
    .-= orc shaman´s last blog ..Need more rage^H^H^H^H attitude =-.

  23. bigbearbutt says:

    CRAP!

    I get, literally, hundreds of spam caught in my filter every few hours.

    I scan through them all before clearing them out to make room for the new batch. You don’t want to know what it looks like if I’m gone for the weekend.

    Cut to the chase, someone posted a legitmate comment, it was at the bottom of the latest batch of spam, and I cleared it accidentally.

    If you left a comment, and it ain’t here, PLEASE repost!

    I think it started with ‘This is welcome news indeed….”… I caught that bit as my finger clicked the “clear Spam” button.

    Dangit!

  24. KiwiRed says:

    Hmmm, let’s see if I can remember what I wrote.

    This is welcome news indeed, after the repetitive mess that raiding in Wrath turned into (ToC, I’m looking at you in particular). Reducing progression from 10+25+10H+25H to a single lockout, while it does have the potential to massively reduce the amount of raiding time available for those who want it, has the potential to massively reduce player burnout.

    I just hope they can work around what seems to be the biggest possible issue that could develop from the ability to switch a lockout from 25- to 10-man on a per-boss basis, namely the other 15 players who wouldn’t be happy to find themselves missing out.

    From what I’ve been hearing so far from these Cata previews, it looks like this going to be the expansion where playing multiple characters becomes the new norm. Want to experience the new Azeroth? Level an alt. New class combination look interesting? Level an alt. Raids only available once per character per lockout? Well, you can see where this is going… (On a semi-related note, I wonder if recruit-a-friend will be expanded beyond 1-60?)
    .-= KiwiRed´s last blog ..Ding 1 Year! =-.

  25. Paona says:

    Heh, no hard feelings.

    Basically, my point was that Blizzard, as usual, is very good at telling us stuff without actually telling us anything, and that while we will see a decrease in the number of items that are effectively clones of eachother, just with more or less item budget, what we may wind up seeing is that gear itemization becomes less “you *MUST* get this item” i.e, The Sack of Awesome (a.k.a., the Sack of Ikfirus) and lead towards the death of BiS gear lists.

    I’m all for this, but I’m keeping my OMG! firmly in my holster, since, y’know, it’s Blizzard. It’s all part of a greater plan with those guys.
    .-= Paona´s last blog ..On Raids in Cataclysm =-.

  26. suxxy says:

    I’m reading this waaay too late at night, so please forgive me if this has been stated:
    Is this the bit where you can re-enter a raid with other people to help out friends/guildies and re-do bosses but not receive loot/badges for your toon if you’ve already done that fight?

  27. Seleria says:

    I personally, as someone that spends the most effort in 25’s, was not thrilled at this news. Mainly because it means people will feel entitled to run 10mans on alts. You still end up with everyone running 25 and 10, but now they’re doing it for two alts simultaneously. On the other hand, I kind of adore the fact that I can quite literally take the people I actually LIKE, have a guild to ourselves, and run 10man and enjoy it. 10-mans are always more fun because you have more control over who you take. I run 10-man with a group of people I really enjoy running things with.

    I have to say though, that for the last 3 tiers of gear, 10-man content is exceptionally easier than 25-man, at least in my experience. I’m saying this from the perspective of my druid who has only raided 25s regularly during Naxx. I think I’ve pugged two 25-mans.

    I guess I personally am torn. I’m worried what it will do to my guild.

  28. Nimizar says:

    @suxxy: allowing people to help their friends without being eligible for loot has been suggested (I’m one of the people that suggested something along those lines in the thread following Blizzard’s announcement, and I doubt I’m the only one), but Blizzard haven’t actually said anything about changing the raid lockout implementation.

    @Big Heals: the megathread following Blizzard’s announcement (210 pages and counting) is actually chock full of people complaining about the change (not all of the posts in there are QQ, but there’s still an awful lot of whining going on). It was pleasant to come here and find mostly happy responses.

    One nice point I saw in that mega-thread is that the change to a single lockout may shift PuGs and off-night raids from alternate sizes of current raids to instead running the previous tier of content. This would be even more likely if the previous tier of heroic mode raids offered similar loot levels and valor points to the current tier of normal mode raids. (i.e. instead of 25 man guilds bashing out a 10 man run of current tier hard modes for fun and a shot at some lesser gear, they could instead go do some previous hard modes instead).

  29. Barrista says:

    The big difference between Naxx 10 and 25 wasn’t just gear, but boss elements as well. You practically had to relearn some fights and so better gear was appropriate. This is not the case anymore and as someone who doesn’t care for 10’s (not even for loot for 25’s) this was a disappointment.

    I hope this will result in more people getting geared and attempting the heroic raids and this may be Blizz’s hope as well. But if 25’s are going to easier and drop the same loot, it would seem the badge of honor for completion would go to the 10s in Cataclysm. You will have a raid that is only slightly easier, but uses almost a third less people. That almost designates 25’s as easy mode.

    I don’t see a lot of 25’s being organized under this except for use as loot pinata’s. More gear for little to no more effort? And just think, the chance of getting the shiny you want increases in 10’s because while it may drop less, there be less of your role to compete with for what does drop. More emblems are nice, but shiny now as opposed to later is even nicer for most.

  30. Phelps says:

    I never got the reason for the 10-man loot ghetto in the first place, especially given how much more difficult Naxx10 was over Naxx25. (To the point that once, our 10 man raid cleared all the way up to Instructor before we realized that we were set on 25 man.) I’m really glad for this.

    And yes, there is still a reason to put up with 25 mans, because the bosses will drop more badges and loot per person. They haven’t said any specifics, but I’m assuming that it means where at 10 man drops two pieces off the loot table (1:5) the 25 man will drop six (~1:4). I’m still wondering if they are planning to have every boss drop more badges, or just maybe the end boss. I’m also interested if they work the ratios out by having bosses drop multiple badges routinely to lessen the difference, like maybe 3/5 instead of 1/2.

  31. Ace2112 says:

    25 raid hard to do?

    this day , yeah.

    back when vanilla wow was the thing. 40 man raid . now that was harder… i think.

    i am glad that they put up the looking for group. now its possible to play alone not in a guild and still see stuff inside thoses nice places. and the new ones too.

  32. Phelps says:

    Actually, I just read the Blues on the new points system replacing badges, so it all makes sense how they are going to adjust the ratios.

  33. Rauxis says:

    I bet this will kill 90% of 25man raiding.

    Puggs: how much easier is it to get 10 man instead 25?
    Guilds: again it’s easier to have 10 man around who like to play with each other then 25 (or 40….)

    After Naxx the actual difficulty of 10mans and 25mans was comparable FROM A MECHANICS side IF YOU HAD APPROPRIATE EQUIP. Meaning Ulduar 10man with Naxx 10man gear was about as difficult as Ulduar 25man in 25man gear. Same for ToC and ICC. 10mans became a joke because more often then not because you run them with 25man pieces (from badges mostly).

    Still, the difficulty of coordinating people grows exponentially with the number involved, even when there is a small offset – if one person dies in 10man it’s a bigger loss then in 25man.

    So I think even if Blizz manages to balance difficulties, and takes into effect that you have more room to maneuver in 10man (which btw I very much doubt they will), success rates in 10mans will be higher then 25man – so you will kill more bosses, work earlier on hard modes – and that beats any higher number of drops in 25.

    I personally have more fun in 10man. I can connect to 10 people on a higher level then to 25man. There is far less arguing and drama about loot.

    For the majority therefore I think this change is good – and that’s where the money is. So I wager Blizz will not even care much if 10mans are easier then 25man, as long as it’s “mostly right”. If a highly coordinated 10man group beats content at the same rate their 25man counterpart does everything is fine (aka if Ensidia 10 is as successful as Ensidia25). But for less professional groups coordination is the MAIN problem, and learning it on 10man is far easier.

    That’s why I think 25man will become the exception, even if in many areas it’s the rule now even for pugs (I’m sure that’s mostly because of better loot)

    Rauxis, chosen of CAT

  34. Steele says:

    About time for that parity between 10- and 25-man versions… i always felt totally screwed as a pure 10-man-raider having badass content where 1 cat will ruin your raid and getting crappy gears in return. i always felt 25-man-raids which i pugged sometimes for the fun of it to be some kind of facerolling experience.. get 5 healers and what can still happen? even 2 or 3 people dieing doesnt matter at all since you probably have that amount of battle rezzes.. and it wouldnt matter even if you didnt, except if your doing hardmodes… the 10-man-progression was kickass, BBB is quite right that everyone had to bring his A game… In fact i would turn everything around and give crap gear to the 25-man-raiders and tune down the content even more for them… WoW shouldnt be about organizing big gangs but bringing the skill and the knowledge. sadly they still hang on to this favour-the-25ers strategy, hate it.

  35. Nimizar says:

    One of the big things about removing the gear disparity is that there will no longer be the temptation to take the easy way out in 10 man raids and use 25 man gear. Part of the perception of “LOL 10 mans are ezy-mode” comes from the fact that in Wrath, the 10 man versions of raids are basically tuned for gear that is a full tier behind the 25 man raids.

    By starting a new tier’s 10 mans with 25 man gear from the previous tier, it’s currently like running the instances with the gear you would have after farming the new instance for several weeks. It only makes sense for 25 man raiders to learn the basics of fights in an environment they outgear, then put that experience into practice on the content with higher gear requirements.

    With the shared loot tables in Cataclysm, I suspect some 25 man raiders that have become accustomed to being able to simply steamroll the 10 man versions of the raids are going to be in for a rude shock.

  36. Give says:

    I dunno this sounds horrible to me.

    I don’t see a reason to do 25mans at all. Especially since you can get all of the same exact gear on 10 man raids.

    So 25 man will drop the same exact loot 10 man did and it will be the same difficulty in 25man to down the bosses but you get more gold? (that sounds crappy)
    and You will have to decide whether to do 10 man or 25 man every week because you cant do both? (sounds even more crappier)

  37. Nimizar says:

    @Solarflash: At Wrath launch, Sarth 3D 10 was the last progression achievement (well after Sarth 3D 25).

    Since then, Blizzard have been tuning 10 mans for a much lower level of gear, so they haven’t even been trying to make the difficulty between the two sizes comparable.

    And you’re wrong that Blzzard have to use the same map layouts in both 10 and 25. They have in Wrath, because it is one of the ways they make the raids easier in 10 man. But for Cataclysm, they can easily add obstacles or increase the radius of spell effects so that movement and coordination become a problem in 10s as well as 25s.

    @Mushu: what is higher level gear, if not a bribe to do 25 mans? If 25 mans are such a painful experience that people won’t do them without that bribe, why should Blizzard continue to spend development time creating them?

    The “no slots for hybrid DPS” argument is specious, because it applies just as well to 25-man raids today as it does to 10-man raids in the future. A well played hybrid DPS is going to deal more damage than a mediocre pure DPS. A raid leader that replaces their veteran elemental shaman/boomkin/ret pally/shadow priest/whatever with a rogue/hunter/mage/warlock they don’t know because “pures do more damage than hybrids” will be an idiot in Cataclysm, just as they would be an idiot to do that now.

  38. Nightwhisp says:

    “Good news everyone. . .I’ve found a way to eliminate all life on Azaroth.”
    Whether or not the sky is falling remains to be seen. I say let’s wait until the new system is out and see how it plays.

  39. HerrDrache says:

    YAY!
    Why? Well, see, I’m a tank. 2 prot specs. And I tank 10-mans with the guild. Here’s my issue:
    Pug. ToC/ICC25. LF: Dps and healer. They start out with tanks, a heal or two, and pug the rest. Our 10-man guild’s DPS start pugging 25s, get the advanced gear from 25s. Cool, great, good for them. I have no issue with it.
    Until they say “Hey, why’d I pull off you, you silly tank”. Why? Because you just added 2K to your DPS and forgot to look at Omen?! Because you just added X% to your crit?
    It’s hard to get into a 25-pug as tank on my realm. It gets easier as the night turns toward 2am or 3am, but I’m asleep then :)

    And – as a 10man guild that has mostly only access to 10-man gear (at least in the beginning), the “server progression” gets totally skewed by the 25-man raiders blasting through 10s and then giggling “dude, your guild is like last on progression, l2play”.

    Will it kill a few 25 man guilds? Possibly. But to run 2 10s, you need 4 tanks instead of 3 for a 25 :) AND you don’t have a full set of buffs/debuffs in 10s, so there’s still a reason to stick to your friendly 25-man guild. You just can’t swing your e-peen anymore, and others may not feel like they have to put up with the attitude that some 25 man guilds have.

    I’d drink to Blizzard for that decision if I weren’t at work right now :)

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