Let’s have us some fun, whattaya say?

Suppose, just imagine for a moment, that when Cataclysm comes out Northrend vanishes into the sea… and the entire world reverts to what we had in Burning Crusade, trash mob groups that flat out require the precise application of Crowd Control to achieve success.

Oh, you think Blizzard couldn’t bring Crowd Control back into importance? Really?

Look, I’ll prove it to you.

I’ll suggest one simple, fast situation where the developers could easily create trash mob groups that would require solid CC to reliably win. See if this sounds familiar.

1) A trash group of five mobs. Two normal melee types, one ranged healer, and two big giants. The two giants are both high armor/health types; both hit really hard, of course, but one applies an undispellable bleed debuff DoT for big damage, and the other does triple damage to bleeding targets. For extra fun, the one that applies the bleed debuff DoT does triple damage against poisoned targets, and the other giant applies an undispellable Poison DoT.

Wouldn’t that be fun? “Sure, you’ve got great health and armor, and you can put out great threat. You’ll hold ALL the mobs on you as long as you’d like. Just run right on in there, sunshine. You can assuredly tank either of these, no problem. But if you tank both of these giants at the same time, you’re gonna go down too fast for any healer to keep up with the big hits PLUS double DoTs. Oh, and did we mention the healer keeping them both up?”

I’ll admit, adding the ranged healer is just being mean, and probably unneccessary. Especially if it was a powerful healer with a short cast time.

We could always swap him out for a warrior-style mob that casts a group Fear (Intimidating Shout). Yeah, that would be fairer. And make sure this is in tight quarters, lots of other groups to get feared into, right?

Can you say the return of ranged line of sight pulls, Misdirecting into traps and keep chain trapping, or Saps and then traps, or whatever ingenuity the players bring? So many classes have CC, after all. Keeping one giant locked out of the way, and the healer or caster tied up so you can finish off the second giant? It’s not rocket science, but it would require a group to bring some CC skills. 

I bet Shamen would love to use Hex in an actual group environment. Froggie!

So, let’s accept that if Blizzard wants to, all your fancy gear isn’t going to change the fact that they can make you learn CC to advance.

Suppose that this brave world was here. Now.

Would you be ready?

How many of you remember how to use crowd control effectively? How many of you understand the new diminishing returns rules for Crowd Control? (PvPers, please refrain from cheating on this, we know you’ve got the skills).

How many of you Feral Druids use Kitty Form to Pounce on and then Stun your prey, so you can nibble on them for a while? Or, even more fun, how many Druids know the effective uses of Hibernation? Or Cyclone?

If you just said “Hibernation? What’s that?”, spend 5 minutes wearing the Shame hat of doom. But I wouldn’t be surprised.

How many Rogues practise Sapping? Do you even remember what happens when you Sap one mob in a group? Do the rest pull, or not?Are you still up on your emergency Vanish techniques?

How many Hunters still retain their chain trapping skills? Better question. How many Hunters out there never had to chain trap for real? How many don’t know how, and haven’t ever worried about it because it wasn’t needed?

How many Priests out there know the principle behind using Focus targets to keep one mob easily chain CC’d while healing or attacking other targets?

Imagine a world where you know, when you log in to do a random heroic, that the tank is going to ask for skilled crowd control, and that means you.

How hard will it be for you to prepare? Need a refresher, or are you gonna freak?

And finally, seriously, the biggest question.

Would you really be happy with the return of CC? Knowing what you do now about how much longer the old instances took to run compared to today, and the “go go go” mentality that says 15 minutes for a heroic is too damn long, and what kind of people you meet right now in Looking for Dungeon?

Big Red Kitty taught me how to chain trap, with his exciting series of videos. It’s where my experience with other blogs began. I dinged 70 in Burning Crusade on my Hunter alt, and wanted to know how to chain trap, because that was the quintessential mark of skill for a Hunter. I was not only prepared to be asked, I was begging to be asked to Chain Trap in instances.

Can that kind of intensity be brought back without drowning in a sea of QQ?

74 Responses to “Where will you stand when the CC comes round?”
  1. TJGypsy2 says:

    Yes. yes I think I would. Two of my favorite BC instances were Shattered Halls, and Shadow Labs, and those instances required that, as the tank, you know how/where to pull mobs, and how to do so without pulling additional groups and ALSO required that your CC’ing DPS were on the ball.

    Yes, those instances took longer. But I feel they were more fun than the instances in LK, because they took SKILL. You couldn’t just run in there and spam your AoE ability, you HAD to take part in the group, you HAD to contribute, and if you didn’t….well….the server knew who you were.

    I’d love to see that come back for Cataclysm.

    TJ

  2. Scouris says:

    I certainly hope so. The best time I had as a warlock was in Heroic Mechanar – having to enslave a demon, banish another and always be prepared to fear kite any additional adds – all in the one pull. And lets not forget upstairs from that area where I would need to chain-seduce a caster, fear-kite another, whilst maintaining DPS on the rest.

    I get downhearted when I see the AoE-fests that happen nowadays. And when I see groups of level 80s going into Heroic Slabs and wiping because they tried to pull entire groups.

  3. Dyre42 says:

    I think I’d be ready. The beauty of the scenario that you suggested is that the gogogogo guys and the DPSers that pull for the tank would become complete liabilities.

  4. Brian says:

    My first serious character was a hunter, and I started in mid-BC time frame. I learned to trap from the BRK videos, and remember practicing it soloing in wetlands. More than once, I had other characters stop and watch for a minute, saying they had never seen it. I would love to see it come back, not for every pulll, but maybe 2-3 per boss would be nice. I think this is one of the reasons I didn’t like playing my hunter through WotLK much.

    Maybe people won’t be so quick to gripe about tanks or healers when there are these clear markers of ‘here is where the dps needs to do this exactly right, or we wipe’ as a put-up-or-shut-up.

  5. Rades says:

    When I was a lowbie hunter, I was reading hunter blogs and tips which were at endgame BC/Kara level, talking about the value of trapping, chain trapping, etc. I practiced it tons. Too bad I never started doing instances/raiding until Wrath, when trapping is regarding as a weakness. Seriously. My good pallytank friend regards trapping/cc as signs that the tank can’t do their job without it. /sad

    I still toss a freeze arrow whenever it looks like a mob might munch on a healer. It’s not the same though.

  6. Jod says:

    Been reading this blog for sometime but haven’t commented before. Nows as good a time as any :)

    I love cc, it always made an instance feel like something that had to be worked on rather than run through. I was in a dungeon not two days ago where the 3 dps were a warrior, a paladin and a dk. If they bring in heroics with cc needs similar to MgT that would have been one painful group – especially when you consider that most DK’s don’t even know they have a cc ability. If it can be organised that cc is viable no matter what player you bring in, thats fine, but if it turns into “LFM MGT, need 2 mages” I definatly don’t want that.

  7. Kobal says:

    I hope so, I really do.

    Our guild were chatting about this not two nights ago – I never thought i’d would pine for the days of the “3-and-a-half hour Heroic Shadow Labs Fiasco” (we were a bit of a Mickey Mouse operation at the best of times!), but it’s been so long since anyone has had to truly bring their A-game to a heroic that we all got misty eyed and nostalgic.

    If beating an instance takes skill and teamwork rather than automatic AoE spam then maybe many of us wouldn’t be feeling the apathy toward the game that we feel now.

    Our DPS corps agreed that they want to be relied on to do their jobs to the best of their player abilty, and to the extend of their class abilities, not just be bodies with a “Total Damage Done” label.

    Oh, and I would love to use hex in a group situation! Focus CC, Hex ‘n’ heal.

  8. Dechion says:

    I may be in the minority, but I am looking forward to it.

  9. Kattrinsaa says:

    I haven’t HAD to use a trap on my hunter (except for taming) since the butler (what was his name?) in kara.. Man i miss that place.

  10. xmolder says:

    Assuming just my level 80 toons, I can…

    - Fear bounce, Banish, and Seduce with reckless abandon on my warlock.
    - Cyclone, Hibernate, and Entangling Roots with pinpoint accuracy on my druid.
    - Spam Chains of Ice on my DK, but that hardly counts, unless I’m supposed to kite in place of a hunter?
    - Polymorph like a boss on my mage.

    If you include low-level toons, I can…

    - Kite/”chain” trap on my hunter.

    I’d say I’m ready. ;)

  11. xmolder says:

    How could I forget that I can Enslave Demons? D: I fail as a warlock, clearly.

  12. Deandre - Dalaran says:

    Rogues (at least those like how I play them) still sap extensively…but while we’re solo. Sure, I could just burn the pair/group down, blow cooldowns, etc. to keep going… or I could sap one ahead of time and reduce the incoming damage for the next bit. Unless I accidentally hit my fan of knives button…

  13. Bryan says:

    CC rocks haha. the only time cc was a problem was when some asshate goes.. ” i think i wanna top dm and aoe!!”

  14. Tim says:

    I wouldn’t mind re-instituting some CC again. I learned to chain trap in BC, and actually got pretty good at it. I still find a use for a trap now and then. I even get to use the ranged ice trap in PoS every now and then. But, not in LFG. Those are blow and go groups. I just concentrate on burning down the mobs, MDing at every opportunity.

  15. Sukugaru says:

    I love Hibernation and use it a lot! Admittedly, the main time I use Hibernation is when I’m out mining, and a beastie is getting too close to comfort.

    The only time I ever used it in a group was a Sethekk Halls run, back in the BC days. What was particularly amusing is that I’d never used it in a group before, and didn’t know I could Hibernate the birds. We were having a lot of trouble, and taking way too much damage.

    And then, either someone in the group pointed it out, or I suddenly realised myself, that the birds clawing my face off were classed as Beasts and I could cast hibernate on them.

    Well. That made things a lot easier. The rogue would sneak in and Sap, then I’d Hibernate a bird to start the pull, pop into bear form, and off we went!

    I miss that sort of thing.

    I get some CC practice, of a sort, when I’m out mining. Hibernate the wolf, Entangling Roots on other melee mobs, Cyclone the caster, then hit that node. Cyclone lasts just long enough to get the ore.

  16. Minos says:

    If some DPS can’t or won’t CC, they can make it another role on the dungeon finder. Those who actually want to do it, like your freshly 70 hunter, check the box and then the UI can indicate “this person is responsible for CCing”.

  17. Abruk says:

    Ok, I’ll step up and say it when no one else will. I wouldn’t be ready, in fact I’d be hozed.

    I started playing mid bc with a warlock, the most CC I ever did was fear kiting back when that was a workable thing (you can’t do it anymore) and only when solo. If I had pulled any fears out in an instance back then it wouldn’t be good at all. I think I tried using banish once or twice leveling in wrath (the elementals in old kingdom) and was endlessly berated for it due to the change in play style. I never ran heroics or instances in BC at all so I’ve got no frame of reference there.

    I shelved the lock for a shammy while we were waiting for Ulduar to come out. I’ve used hex once or twice while soloing, just to see what it was like.

    I had a mid level pally from when I got my brother playing on the RAF plan, leveled him up when all I had to do on the shammy was a daily dungeon and raiding, I have a feeling that a CC heavy pull and a pally tank would be interesting to say the least. Concencrate, HotR, Capt America shield throw, and so on. I’m sure it can be done (and was) but I’m still so new at tanking that throwing in some CC’d mobs in tight quarters would make things interesting in a bad way.

    Now, will I adapt if this happens? Most likely I would. Will you adapt if it happens? Sure sounds like most of you above are convinced that you’re ready for that change to be effective tomorrow morning.

    Maybe it’s that I’ve been playing a healer for a while now (or a tank most recently) but I worry much less about myself and much more about what the other four people in the group are up to. How many people have had problems in HoR because folks won’t stay in the corner till all the ranged ghosts collapse on the tank? How many rogues have you seen run a five man with every button hot keyed to fan of knives? Hunters MD’ing the next pull onto the tank before the tank (or healer) is ready? How many people have tried to make it up the hill in Pit of Saron before the two groups of hellfire spamming buggers arrive, but couldn’t because one person could not follow a simple instruction like “Mount up and follow me”?

    Kinda reminds me of a movie quote – “A person is an intelligent, logical, calm being. People on the other hand are stupid, panicky creatures and you know it” (it may not be exact, but you get the idea)

    I’d get used to the changes and adapt, but how many other people out there will? And do you want to run 5 mans with them?

    wow, not only was I long winded, but I was pessimistic as well. Sorry about that BBB, didn’t mean to shower on anyone’s parade if I did, but it’s how I see things (and with devs building to the LCD I’m not sure how much CC they WOULD put in anyway). Ok, sorry, no more pessimism tonight.

  18. Len says:

    I would love a return to CC :) Then again, my main is a mage so I was constantly ‘the CCer’ back in vanilla and burning crusade. I loved being able to counterspell and LOS a caster and sheep it in a nice corner out of the way, or a POM-poly pull and then blinking away so the tank could pick them all up neatly as they ran towards me, or kite a big bad around while the tank was busy/stunned etc.

    My priest has seen more CC action than my mage from Kara onwards really, the only CC I have regularly used is shackle.

    Hmm I think I need to dig out my focus macros!

  19. Shane says:

    Priest = Shackle… I use it now especially in PoS and those annoying fire exploding mobs. I havent used mind control for a while but i was thinking about it today for some crazy reason.

    Mage = Rabbit (I miss my piggy), all the time…

    Druid = Pounce and as you said wail on the mob for a while. Entangling roots especially for pvp, but I havent used it in PvE for a while except in ICC when Donavan needs to stay alive, I always forget about the entangling roots one you cast on yourself but thats only because Im still not used to being able to cast it while in cat/bear form… and cyclone, i havent used it too much since Frozen throne came out

    Rogue = sap sap sap sap sap sap sap sap sap sap sap… its my favourite ability for my rogue. Sap – Pickpocket – Sap – Pickpocket… Ive specifically gone into instances to pickpocket the lot of them… soooo much fun

    hunter = Trap and fear animal. Im not sure how to chain trap as Ive never been asked to do it and Ive only just leveled my hunter.

    Bring CC on. I miss it and sometimes it makes things soo much easier.

    oh – I hate Army of the dead for constantly stealing my aggro.

  20. Fenn says:

    Long time stealther, first time poster. Had to reply to this after a run through HC TBC instances last night with two friends. I’ve had a sheep focus macro on my mage’s hotbar, linked directly to a mouse button, all the way through WotLK. I used it more last night in three TK instances to control the pulls for three non-healing capable DPS than in the last year and a half. And you know what?

    I missed it. It was fun. I was doing more than spamming AOE and I was remembering skills I had and all the fun of precise group and boss pulls…

    Bring back CC!!

  21. Uzi says:

    I _think_ having it back in the game would be good. After all current heroics, bar Halls of Reflection, are trivial. HoR can be made trivial by the user of Shackle or other CC…but so few people know how to use it anymore.

    My first level caped charcter was a 70 ally Hunter and I _loved_ the art of the ‘Pull’. Using MD, traps, kiting to keep things going while the other DPS nuked.

    I think a lot of the old sckool types will love it. My wife, one of your fellow Bear Tanks, still uses Cyclone on LadyG fight (we have so many druids in our 25 man raid that Cyclone is the only reliable CC and its not like all of the tanks are busy 100% of the time in that fight).

    HOWEVER. I think the QQ will be epic and that as soon as people gear up from the Naxx/Kara equivilant they will try like hell to do away with CC and go back to the AoE fest. Of course those TBC heroics were argueably harder than Kara…..be nice to see that again. I loved really sweating over those heroics and needing a good group to get them done. With the badge cap I’d love to see a return to 1 hour + runs to get your heroic badges. Just as long as we dont have to do it 7 nights a week!

  22. Steele says:

    I have a 80 Hunter that never put a trap in his life and a 80 shaman that never turned anything into a frog, not even for fun. no i dont miss CC, thats what almost kept me from getting into WoW. Remember Sethekk Halls or whatever the name? Fear -> Add -> Fear more -> Add more -> 3 Inches of blood on the floor? No thanks, i used to tell to my buddy i love the game but the CC is making me quit, im not a warrior with huge health, a sword and shield made from metal and then im running, crying in fear, from an owl! no way! Always hated CC, i agree it makes the game harder.. but then who wants to play hard games? Go play chess, im here to roflstomp some dungeons for making up my shitty times at work! ;) Haha no its not that bad but really if you ask me if im missing CC.. no, i dont. At all.

  23. Nimizar says:

    My trapping is rusty, but it came back quick enough when I needed it for early trips up the ramp in Pit of Saron (Freezing Arrow actually became useful for something!), so it shouldn’t take long to get back into the swing of things in Cataclysm. I’d be back to an SV spec for dungeons and raids in an instant though – when CC is worthwhile, Trap Mastery and Resourcefulness are invaluable. Heck, I even remember using Scare Beast for additional CC in some TBC Heroics :)

    My experience with my druid’s CC is pretty lousy though. Entangling roots to snare a melee, cyclone, hibernate… I’m not even sure where to find those buttons on my action bars (I have them somewhere, I’m just not sure where). Target switching as a kitty would be even worse (I’d be more likely to offer to off-tank something in bear).

  24. FaceTankingForFunAndProfit says:

    I think having some limited cc would be interesting to bring back into the game. Being a tank and seeing how many people fail at even the simplest tasks however makes me nervous as to how painful some of those instances will become. If instances start taking an hour+ again and people start racking up huge repair bills from idiots wiping groups then you are going to see a wave of QQ on the forums that you haven’t seen in ages. It might even make people start to look for group runs within their own server (remember Magister’s Terrace where everyone wanted a mage or rogue to go with them) instead of just allowing the LFD tool to pick their group for them.

  25. Ely says:

    well I have to admit Wind and I went into SLabs for the fun of it and his Kara key :) We didn’t clear the room before the second boss just pulled him boy we almost didn’t make it, but it was soooo much fun :) Btw this was on horde side with his pally and my priest both lvl 80 :)

  26. Tufva says:

    Healing and CCing at the same time can be stressful, but I still remember the pride I felt when I was able to chain shackle Moroes’ friends while keeping the tank up and HoTing the garotte victims. Multi-tasking challenge completed!

  27. Brewenor says:

    I guess I am in the minority here. I am glad its gone. One thing everyone forgets about is what will have to change with tanking? It seems as though everyone forget the “other” changed that came with the AoEfest. Maul will be off macro- can’t accidentally hit the cc target. Swipe gone. When we had CC before, swipe was 3 targets in FRONT of your bear. You could position yourself and face away from the cc’d targets, now you better be far enough away to not hit them. Bears will be back to mangle, lacerate and maul (unglyphed). Swipe or tab target will have to cover AoE situations. Will not even get into the pally situation since almost every threat move they have is more than one target.

    “Oh, and did we mention the healer keeping them both up?” As a primarily a healer, I continue to get frustrated with the concept the only way to make things harder is to increase damage taken. The mentality that the healer “should” be able to power it through will continue no matter what people think.

    While I too did enjoy the epic Vanilla 5 mans and raids, I don’t want to have to deal with what essentially is a time waster. We have evolved past that.

  28. Argon says:

    There actually has been some use for CC in LK, mainly on some of the more difficult trash in Ulduar and ICC, at least until everybody gears up a bit.

    It will be interesting to see how the LFG tool survives the change to 5 mans that actually require some skill out of players. As it is right now, only a couple of people in the group have to be any good, because everybody outgears them so much.

  29. poka says:

    hmm, I just wrote a post on CC, funny that you think about this too.
    I still CC in HoR, a lot. As a healer. :)

    But still I think CC is easier than in vanilla – where area effects could break it. But what ae still breaks CC?
    There will be a warlock dotting up all mobs before you can do anything anyway… I would be afraid of my fellow groupmates more than anything. ;)

  30. Andy says:

    Oh I really do yearn for moar CC. Without its necessity, instance runs are pretty boring for DPS – just stand and nuke, and try to stay awake. If DPS had some interesting jobs to do, it’d be great.

    With some of the other announcements I’ve read, for example about parry not reducing 100% of the damage from a hit, it looks like Bliz plan on making it very difficult for tanks to survive holding more than 2 or 3 mobs, thus making CC a requirement.

    There’s also the stuff about how everyone will have more health in general, which has me wondering whether Bliz plan on having some mobs CC the tank, so perhaps everyone else in the party will have to fend for themselves occasionally – again, CC would be important here, and in a more reactive way than the carefully planned pre-pull kind.

    I reckon one way they could make AoE-fests non-viable is to simply make AoE abilities very high threat, so tanks would find it impossible to hold aggro in such situations (unless they massively out-gear the DPS).

  31. Relevart says:

    I probably have an unpopular view, but bring back Shattered Halls @ gear level. Pulls of 5-7 mobs that require selective and specific CC. I am dying for players to have to make choices other than DPS or DPS Harder! I hope that they can engage in some creative choice mechanics when it comes to mob grouping and one way I’d like to see this is by having mobs that buff other mobs. Mini bloodlusts, damage buffs, stealable buffs, dispellable buffs, MC mobs to buff party members. Those were fun times.

  32. Brewa says:

    Very interesting. Can we get a bigger ignore list? ;)

    I’m actually learning a lot from the random dungeon tool about tanking. I rolled a NE druid on another server with some friends I knew from outside of game. As much as I love kitty, I decided to level as bear to dramatically reduce the random dungeon queue time and am having a blast doing it. I’m actually watching mages sheep things. I’m watching (some) groups listen to me when I say, “Stay back, I’m going to LoS this.” And the groups that don’t, when they actually get aggro and die when they don’t stay back tend to drop group, which is nice, I didn’t want you here anymore anyway.

    It’s interesting trying to tank without the full set of tools available to me as an 80-bear. And it usually only takes a couple of pulls before pugs start to listen to my, “Please count to 5 before engaging in AoE.” (Although, I did get vote kicked, once, for saying “I will pull at my pace, wipes slow us down more than me pulling too much.” when they wanted me to go faster.) And to me…the coolest part of all this is the fact that I’m running these dungeons at level. I didn’t start until Wrath, so I never saw these instances when there was any real danger. I tore through them at 80 for Loremaster. People will learn and if they fail to learn their queues will get even longer due to amassing ignores.

    People, eventually, will rise to the challenge presented to them. So lets give them a bit more challenge. :)

    And this is rambly, but it was all based on what I read, honest!

  33. Kaw says:

    I hope people step up and exercise a little bit in the coming months but my guess is the CC muscles have gone too far to be resurrected. There will be a select few, but those few will be limited to that 10% of groups from the LFD tool that leave you going “wow, that was a great run. I wish all groups were that good.”

    I’ve tried a few dungeons recently (first time in a while) with the LFD tool and I have to say, I’m worried for times of CC returning. I miss the days of skilled hunters, watching rogues either sap or die, and mages being the unicorn of the CC world. It gave a lot of dps a niche to fill without having to be a tank or healer. But the real question would be, what happens when the LFD tool gives you a Warrior tank, Druid healer, 2 ret pallies and a DK. No *real* CC other than cyclone and maybe hibernation (I don’t see repentance/stuns as CC unless you have MASSIVE dps to back it up). And you know that healer’s going to be working his but off already.

    I hope Blizzard does 1 of 2 things: either allows for cross-server friends to join up in the LFD tool, or allows for you to request a group on your realm only. Why? Because then you know you’ll be grouping with skilled players (or people you like/trust), or you can fill from general or LFG chat/general/etc. if the CC is not there. Bring it on I say, but don’t set us up to fail, Blizz.

  34. Naturalregis says:

    /setfocus /polymorph

    I’m good to go! :)

    I also remember initiating a pull or two with Hibernate while being the tank. /hibernate /bearform /destroyall

    So, if dungeons take 30 to 45 minutes again, I’m alright with that.

    But if we return to Mara days, well, that would get much QQ from me.

    The one thing about CC is the limitations on them (ie: only working on humanoids, undead, etc.) – would that revert us back to bringing the class (and not the player) because of their specific CC ability? Or do we have groups mixed such that if you can’t CC mob A, you can at least CC mob B?

  35. bigbearbutt says:

    Regis, you bring up two things that were actually in the baqck of my mind while writing this. I didn’t mention them, because I’d like to go with leaner, more streamlined and focused blog posts instead of rambling bearwalls. That’s what the professionals do, right?

    First, I used Hibernate as a pull technique when tanking in vanilla WoW, in Upper Blackrock Spire against the Dragonkin. I didn’t tank during the Maraudon levels, I was a kitty/bear DPS hybrid when soloing, so I don’t have the Mara tanking street cred. :)

    Still, it was fun actually having a run that I could effectively do just as you mention; Hibernate pull/bearform and destroy.

    Second… I wonder the same thing about CC abilities among the classes. On the one hand, when Blizzard broadened the types of mobs that various forms of CC could affect, I thought this was a sign that it was intended to be used more. But they also consistently say bring the player not the class, so for CC to be brought back into play, you’re dead on. Either the groups would need to have a blend of mob types, just like in Karazhan where you’d see groups after Curator that were mixed Demon (banish), Undead (Shackle) and Ice trappable. In a 10 man run, chances would be fairly decent you’d have at least one Priest, Warlock or Hunter in the group. Anyway, either that, or classes current CC would have to be expanded, which means more homogenization (and wider affects in PvP).

    I don’t know, they’ve already done some changes to buffs and debuffs among classes for overlap, so maybe they’ll do the same for CC>

  36. Keifeldspar says:

    I only started playing seriously when BC came out, but I got good at chain trapping on Moroes in Kara. I’d enjoy seeng it come back to some extent (though Shattered Halls was a bit much.)

  37. Manxome says:

    I don’t think the scenario you detailed (a full-on BC style layout complete with ranged, heavy hitters, fear and densely packed mobs) is going to materialize in Cataclysm. I am expecting a “kinder, gentler” form of ‘mandatory’ CC. More along the lines of “ooh. Lookie, there’s a pack of nasties. But there’s one in there that’s *particularly* nasty. Let’s consider CCing it”.

    Sadly, I’ll be suprised if I see the need for more than one CC or something as ‘complicated’ as chain trapping. I’m betting its along the lines of temporarily delaying one mob while the rest goes down with it getting a bit dicey there (but manageable) if the CC is not reapplied.

    Why do I feel this way? I think Blizzard made the decision that BC-style CC was “not fun,” and that the wrath correction was a little to extreme. I think the mass player base will not be entirely happy with even a little bit of CC and they will decide to ramp it up slowly. I would envision the early Cata 5 mans to have many wrath-style pulls with just a few CC-needed pulls (think Pit of Sauron perhaps, assuming you bother to use CC on the hill).

    All this said, I would love a return of full-on BC-style CC and mechanics. I think someone decided, however, that the instances that were designed that way were not accessible enough. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to learn that maybe 30% of the player base ever saw every BC heroic…

  38. Iceveiled says:

    As a hunter I say bring it on. WotLK instances were boring for ranged dps. Sure, I got to polish my skills in heroic HoR runs, but the year leading up to that? Nada.

  39. dorgol says:

    The first time I actually felt useful in a 5-man was in Maraudon as a level 41 Warlock. I was asked to banish and enslave targets, and it was great. In fact, I was brought in a few levels before I should have been simply because I was able to CC.

    I got that feeling again in Molten Core when we finally got to Garr. I had a target and that target was to remain under my control at all times. I remember having long discussions with the other Warlock in our raid on how to pull our add, how to move our add to the right spot, what pet to use, how to time our banish so that it would reapply INSTANTLY – otherwise the add would take off in the wrong direction and start killing healers.

    At the same time – I don’t want CC requirements to be as crazy as they were in TBC. I was excluded from the first Heroics in TBC simply because I was a Warlock. I could get into Mechenaar and Underbog because they had demons or elementals, but otherwise I was simply not welcomed. It was the Mages, Rogues, and (good) Hunters that were sought after.

    So bring back CC, but make it limited. Not every pull needs 6 raid markers and 4 CC types all going off simultaneously.

  40. bigbearbutt says:

    Manxome, I have to agree that I doubt Blizzard would enact a CC scenario as drastic as I described. That was more in the way of a pre-emptive strike against folks who think that our current gear levels make CC encounters impossible to design. I’ve seen threads about it on the forums, and they always make me smile.

    “These folks”, I think, “Don’t know what happens when you tell a GM that they can’t take your character down.”

    I do think, though, that it is realistic to expect a handful of encounters in any given instance where there is a mob that has effects on the situation that make it advidable to CC it for a smooth fight. And, I think that if it’s prevalent enough, widespread enough, then the trend will be to just accept that CC is uesful and spare the extra (omigod) 5 seconds to handle the fight with more care.

    Then again… I might be smoking paint thinner. In fact, I probably am. We’re probably past the point in the game’s life cycle where, in our innocense, things in the game could be designed as complicated challenges without shrieking and wailing and nashing of teeth. I’ll point to people who bail instantly when they see Halls of Reflection and Oculus in their LFD.

  41. Neil says:

    I’m a little late to the party here, but I’ll chime in …

    During BC days, I played nearly exclusively as a Bear. Near the end of the expansion, though, I went Tree for a few months during which we ran nothing but ZA. In there, I had the responsibility of Rooting the trolls between Nalorakk and Jan’alai, who would run away and summon additional mobs. I kept a handful of items with hit rating (and spell damage, instead of spell healing! remember that?) for that stretch of trash. But that was about my entire BC-era CC experience.

    In WotLK, I’ve also brought a Priest to level 80. In heroic Ahn’kahet, I use Shackle Undead as an interrupt on Spell Flingers; even if it breaks instantly, the mob was still in CC for a fraction of a second, so the spell is interrupted. In heroic Pit of Saron, I use Shackle Undead on the far-right Flamebearer on the two hill packs. And in heroic Halls of Reflection, I use Shackle Undead on either a Mercenary or a Mage whenever possible. I’ve been meaning to set up mouseover or focus macros, but I’ve gotten by just fine by clicking on the target, pressing the Shackle key, and clicking back to my group to resume healing.

    The devs have made some loose statements regarding availability of CC across classes, mostly stating that it’ll be expanded (I vaguely recall a mention of Intimidating Shout being modified to be better CC). The Dungeon Finder presents a new level of complexity for them to address: any three DPS classes, selected at random, should have enough CC to get through any five-player instance.

    One option is to make a wide variety of CC available to all DPS classes. As you mentioned, this will lead to homogenization and a slew of PvP issues. Another option is to have the Dungeon Finder quietly and invisibly make sure that each group gets enough CC. This might lead to, depending on how CC in Cataclysm shakes out, Fury Warriors (for example) having longer DPS queues than Survival Hunters. But if I had to come up with a solution Right Now, that’s what I’d go with.

    Let’s consider the various CC options:

    Mages: Polymorph (Beasts, Humanoids)
    Warlocks: Fear (All); Banish (Demons, Elementals); Seduction (Humanoids)
    Priests: Mind Control (Humanoids, channeled); Shackle Undead (Undead)
    Druids: Hibernate (Beasts, Dragonkin); Entangling Roots (melee)
    Rogues: Sap (Humanoids, Beasts, Demons, Dragonkin, out-of-combat)
    Hunters: Freezing Trap (All); Wyvern Sting (All, Survival-only)
    Shaman: Hex (Humanoids, Beasts)
    Paladins: Repentance (Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoids, Undead)
    Death Knights: None
    Warriors: None

    I have also made the assumption that only DPS will be responsible for crowd control. If you ensure that each five-player group’s DPS has at least one of {Hunter, Warlock} and at most one of {Warrior, Death Knight}, you’re guaranteed to have one CC’er for any mob you may encounter, and possibly a second CC’er depending on the mob types in the instance. The critical flaw of that solution, though, is that it could give some classes a heavy queuing advantage over others.

    Either way, I have faith in the devs’ ability to figure out a system that works.

  42. Sarabian says:

    I must say I would be ready and eager. I started tanking Shadow Labs on my warrior at 78. I got a lot of people pulled into the group and said “Seriously? We have a 78 tank in here?” And I did it. My hunter could also chain trap with the best of them. I would welcome a return to requiring skills to play.

    I just don’t see it happening. Too many whiny-asses out there that want EZ-mode instancing and the “Phat-lewtz” handed to them on a titansteel platter. It would be great, but alas I do not envision it.

  43. Wait, other groups don’t line-of-sight pull the trash in ICC?

    Or is that just because we have an awesome bear tank?

    I am ready, willing, and able to shackle any undead you want, though I reserve the right to accidentally penance them if I forget to switch my target back to the tank. Heck, I always shackle the riflemen in HOR. The problem is that most dps either don’t know what that means, don’t see it, or aoe anyway.

    I would like to see CC come back, but there would need to be a way to brute-force the encounter as well. Otherwise the Sanity Tap (dungeon finder) is just going to be more painful and I’m going to get blamed for many more wipes. Why is it always the healer’s fault? Sigh. There’s only so much stupid I can heal through.

  44. Naturalregis says:

    I don’t have any Mara tanking cred, actually. I didn’t really get serious with my feral druid until BC days when I recruited Chawa to play. Once she was high enough level, I partnered up with her as the bear to get punched in the face while she would explode everything to hell. :)

    I was mostly making reference to the fact that Mara, at level, would easily be in excess of an hour. Sometimes two. Now that I’ve been spoiled with the relatively shortness of dungeons in BC and WotLK, I enjoy the fact that I don’t have to dedicate that much time to it. It’s one thing to do that for a raid, but I’m now of the mindset that dungeons are a less significant endeavor. No, not quite the overgeared faceroll they are now… but a challenging half-hour, sure.

  45. Naturalregis says:

    Oh, and one thing about the CC abilities being an issue for PvP – well, Curse of Doom can’t be cast on other players. They could compensate with a similar mechanism on some of those homogenized CC tricks. Just a thought.

  46. Intravax says:

    I would love to have CC come back to the 5 mans or Raids again but with the deplorably skilled player base now, PuGs would be even more of a horror. I still say bring it back tho. Another big concern is that people cried about the difficulty of Occulus because they didn’t take the time to figure out the dragon abilities. I can easily see people wanting to skip those 5 mans in Cataclysm if they have heavy CC requirements.

  47. Intravax says:

    I also forgot to add that CC abilities also made it fun. Which Shadow Priest didn’t enjoy the Mind Control of mobs in Auchindoun instances and using the heals and buffs on your own party members….not to mention mages spell stealing fun abilitiies.

  48. Manxome says:

    Responding to Bear’s comments a few up regarding having some pulls where a bit of CC will make things go smoother. Funny thing is that there are hints of that in wrath. Take my favorite example, the hill on H POS. Shackle one of those fire channelers. Or sheep the caster in the center. Or ice trap either. Its a challenging LOS pull, but it can be done (yes, even the second batch!) and it goes oh-so-much SMOOTHER. We had a 4 guild + 1 pugger LDF run and executed a 2 CC pull perfectly. The pugger said “I’ve never seen anything like that, that was so cool!”. Hopefully THIS is the response Blizzard is going after.

    Some less necessary for CC areas are, of course, the H FoS pulls (my Shaman routinely hexes the caster the tank is not working on with much success) and even the early H UP pulls where, on the pulls between the bonfires, taking the big melee guy off the table makes all the difference.

    Personally, I think if the LFD tool were “tuned down” so that instances were more challenging (really, with the gear level it selects, we hardly need the +5% LFD buff) and success hinged more on execution than brute force, we’d see the level of CC we want.

    And I think that’s what Blizz is after.

  49. Phelps says:

    I would really like to see some instances like heroic Shattered Halls. That’s where we trained guildies in BC to CC. Like the lock who had never CCed before in his life when we hauled him in there. Our RL was running the instance, and says, “okay, trap the square, and the lock gets the circle, diamond and moon.” Uh, saywhut? “You’ve got fear, a succubus, and a banish. This is where you learn to use them. I don’t care if you show up on the damage meters or not, as long as those three stay CCed.” (Yes, WotLK newbs, locks really did CC three mobs at once regularly in BC.)

    One of the evil mechanics that I thought of was a “commander” type mob that did a reverse taunt on all of the other mobs (telling them to focus a player)… and was hypersensitive to healing aggro. Sure, you could try to tank him and all the mobs, but he’s going to turn all the mobs on the healer when you try to heal through it. Or you could just CC him and tank them normally, and kill him when he has nothing to command.

  50. Dechion says:

    Just a thought, I wonder if part of the reason for the tree form changes is so that resto druids will be able to CC without shapeshifting. Just pondering.

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