To the point.

Blizzard has announced that they’re gonna try bribing people to get them to queue as tank in the “Looking For Dungeon” random people-matching tool.

They gussied it up to make it sound like DPS players may end up just as scarce some day and would see the bribes too. Call me cynical, but while I play a character in a virtual world, I like to think my common sense is still fixed in the real one.

It’s a Call to Tank. It’s possibly a Call to Heal. DPS are not, I say again my last NOT, going to see any bribes out of this.

Fine.

I’m not gonna argue the potential effectiveness of their chosen motivational technique. I don’t have the figure(s) for it.

I could go on at length, as others have, and as The Daily Blink so evocatively depicted, by claiming that all this will do is bring more unqualified people to queue as tanks, increasing the crushing unhappiness of those trying to get a run.

I know that when I spend 40 minutes in a queue, I’m not thinking to myself, “Boy, I can’t wait to get a tank so we can go win.”

No, what I’m thinking is, “Boy, after waiting for 40 minutes for this to pop, I sure as heck hope this group doesn’t suck. I’ve already blown half my night.”

But I’m not gonna delve into that.

What I want to ask is, “Is that the best they could come up with for a bribe?”

Look, you want me to tank a random, and we’re talking a 100% random because to get the bribe you’re not allowed to queue with ANY friends, not even a healer you trust, then you better make it worth my while.

What’s that? You say the super short, almost non-existent delay tanks get should be bribe enough?

I agree. You’re right.

But it’s not, is it? If it was, Blizzard wouldn’t be making an attempt to add an additional incentive to get us to queue up.

So… everyone here heard the old joke?

Two guys are working on fixing a car. One turns to the other and asks, “Hey Joe, would you suck a guy’s dick for a billion dollars?”

The other guy thinks about it for a minute, and then says, “Yeah, sure. If someone offered me a billion dollars, you’re damn right I would.”

So the first guy asks, “Would you suck my dick for a dollar?”

Joe looks pissed and says, “Hell no! What do you think I am?”

And the first guy says, “We already established that, now we’re just haggling over the price.”

You may ask yourself, “Did he just call all tanks…?”

My answer to you is, no. No, I did not.

BLIZZARD did.

I can tell you one thing for sure and for certain. If Blizzard expects me to be a whore, the price you’re offering ain’t anywhere NEAR high enough for me.

I may have shocked quite a few of you by using the language I have.

Good.

I have never seen anything inherently wrong with shocking people, if it helps to get them seeing things from a different point of view. If you want your worldview coddled and wish to avoid anything that might harsh your mellow, then I suggest you leave the internet entirely. Or try to stick to websites that show nothing but cute cat videos, like I do.

I do not queue as a tank for LFD. Ever. I, personally, love tanking above all other group roles available in the game, and yet, I do not queue for randoms as a tank.

Why?

Because of the attitudes I encounter when I’ve tried. The behavior. The abuse.

I’ve talked about it plenty of times before. I’m not going to rehash that either, Rebecca did an outstanding job of it yesterday.

Mainly, I don’t queue because I got tired of being called fail if I put up a crowd control mark, fail if I paused so a healer could recover mana, and got sick and tired of arrogant DPS chain pulling the mobs FOR me if I kept to my own pace anywayc.

So. I stopped queueing up as a tank in LFD because of the abuse I was receiving. Chance at loot and Purples and points to buy loot were not more valuable to me than my self-respect.

Apparently, I am not the only one whose sense of self-respect is strong enough to refuse to put up with abuse.

Blizzard’s answer to this dilemma is to offer us better bribes. To up the offer. To raise the price the’re offering.

To haggle over price.

Okay, if that’s where you’re going with it, fine.

All I can do is ask myself, “What would it take to get me to put up with the abuse and start queueing again? Especially when I only get the rewards by running without a single friend for moral support?”

Would a non-combat pet do it?

Hell, no. And this is coming from an outspoken advocate of pet collecting. I’ve got a LOT of pets on my main, and I’m telling you, no. Not with the pets that they are suggesting they are offering.

Now, IF they added into the pool those pets that you CANNOT get except by spending money or having taken part in a previous promotion.. pets that you only got by buying a Collectors Edition, or through the Trading Card Game, or through the Winter Olympic PvP event, or by playing the game in other countries, or by personally attending a Blizzcon in France…

YES, that would be enough to encourage me to queue.

Yes, I know. I know exactly what that makes me. I never said I wasn’t, I just want to haggle over the price. :)

It’s the same with mounts. Sure, they’re offering a chance, a slight chance, for mounts… but they’re mounts that the exact same tanks have a chance to get by soloing the original instances, without deling with idiots.

But Blizzard has said up front that the mounts you WOULD want, the ones only obtainable in raids like Karazhan, The Eye, or the now-defunct troll raid aren’t included.

Well, geez. If the tank really wanted the mounts you’re offering, they would have gone soloing the dungeon already. Offering a rare chance to get it doesn’t help.

And just how long will someone stay interested if you make it a really rare drop? If they drop fast enough, again, incentive gone, I get my desired  mount, I stop queueing. Make it so it almost never drops, and much like the two handed epic BoA sword in Archeaology, after people try long enough, either they get it and quit, or they just quit.

Now, if you added ALL the potential mounts, and I mean ALL of them, both factions, every special faction, every instance and every raid, AND all the mounts you could only get from attending events or from the Trading Card Games…

YES, then I’d do it. It would be more exciting when you never knew if you’d see something actually special.  God forbid you get offered a reward someone would want.

Even then, I will only do it for as long as it takes to get the rewards I want, and then I’m gone.

So, just as Rebecca says, as it is now, it can only be a temporary measure, lasting only so long as it takes the tanks to get what they want, and then they vanish into the mists.

And if Blizzard tries to extend how long the increased quantity of tanks lasts by reducing the drop rate of the good stuff? Then they increase the chance the already tired and frustrated tanks will say “Screw that for being a suckers game” and quit anyway, and those same tanks will NOT be all that interested in trying again in the future if they ‘up the drop rate’ or something.

It’s a plan for a brief burst of increased tanking… by those who want what they’re offering, and I’m not one of them.

What is this going to accomplish?

I honestly don’t know. I’d tend to think it will encourage anyone currently on the fence about trying tanking for the first time to give it a go, but it does nothing to address the rampant asshat issue, so, those same people will have the same chance of getting burnt out or frustrated and quitting anyway.

What I do know is that Blizzard may think I’m a whore, but I ain’t gonna blow ‘em for what they’re offering. Up the ante first and then we’ll talk.

You can start by putting that Spectral Tiger Mount up in the rotation. That would be a good way to tell me you’re serious about wanting me to queue.

112 Responses to “A Call to Bribe”
  1. Chawa says:

    This was a great read! A lol-omg-he did not just-oh yes he did read! And I loved it!

  2. Iben says:

    Glad I’m not the only one. I laughed a little when I saw the bribe. I laughed even more when I saw that I can’t bring my pocket healer. Yeah, not gonna happen. I’m not even sure what a sufficient bribe would be, but somewhere well above what is going to offered and your price is probably mine. I tanked through all of wrath and I LOVE tanking. In Wrath I learned to deal with low DPS from geared folks who just auto attack, insane healers with all sorts of rules about what you can’t do if you want to be healed, and the general insanity of Wrath Heroics, and all of this without breaking a sweat, but Cata broke me. Not the dungeons, they’re basically cake. I have one boss in the entire expansion I have to work for a little, and thats only when I’m at high latency (Ozruk), maybe 5-6 trash pulls that annoy me, but I cannot cope with the level of … “Assholery”present these days. DPS have a sense of entitlement so large it barely fits in the instance, healers act like someone not moving out of the fire before the first tick hits them is the end of the damned world, tanks acting like God placed them on Earth to rule whatever group they join.

    Bleh, I’m rambling. Suffice to say I don’t queue for ANY position anymore unless a friend is going as well. PS… am I the only one that gets annoyed over little things…
    Tanks and DPS refuse to eat. Ever. Fight finishes everyone is at 50% health. Healer stops to drink. Everyone stands and waits to be healed… wtf?
    Tanks who refuse to use cooldowns… um… you just pulled a 6 mob trash pack… pop a damned CD so the under geared healer doesn’t pop a blood vessel trying to heal faster.
    Seeing a ret pally get told L2P because he was the only person in the dungeon who could cure disease, and was actually curing it, so his DPS suffered a bit.

    Ugh, I’m rambling again… sorry, just annoyed. I miss heroics, I miss tanking them, I miss people not being dicks. But yeah, you’re right, they’re turning tanks into low price hookers, we just don’t even have a right to choose our own clients.

  3. Druff says:

    I agree wholeheartedly. Time was, my druid was my favorite character. Now, I only pull him out to tank when my wife wants to run dungeons and then, only for regulars. I refuse to run heroics, even with my wife healing me (which she does an awesome job of btw).
    I just can’t stand the other players.
    And to be honest, this is an incentive, but not at all enough of one.
    Want to make me get back out there and tank, especially without my wife, my wife who I met playing wow? Give me a chance to get the Red Bearon mount in the bag. Give me a chance on the Plagued Proto Drake or the Swift Razzashi Raptor. Hell blizz, it’s just pixels, right? The Red Bearon alone will get me out there farming my ass off in instances.

    Apparently (according to wowhead, from whom all of my blizz news derives: http://www.wowhead.com/blog=186823/patch-4-1-dungeon-finder-call-to-arms-blizzard-clarification) the bags are going to be Bind on Account, so you can farm for them on your tank and mail em to your collector or mount person or achievement whore.
    Still not amazingly attractive, but an improvement nonetheless.

  4. Roaana@Eonar-US says:

    You’re coming from the perspective of a tank – which is the minority (as has been established). This is supposed to be social engineering – incentive for the indignant DPS to make tanks and healers. Why is this necessary? Because instant queue times are apparently not enough, because a DPS who loves his DPS character will continue to love his DPS character – playing a tank does not fall in line with loving his DPS character, so he doesn’t do it. But getting a sweet mount, gold, pets, flasks, whatever? He certainly wants those, not because they are special, but because they are free loot. They are status symbols – “I R AWESOME I GUT MOUNT!” – that are NOT available for their awesome, loved, cherished DPS characters. The only way to get them is to roll an alt tank, level to 85, get lucky, and then pass the phat lewt bag to their DPSer.

    What has all of this silly gibberish accomplished? There are incrementally more tank characters in the game. Surely the number of tank players has not changed – the DPSer still loves his DPS char, and the tanks like you and me are still tanks at heart – we heal or DPS like a vacation, and we despise the lack of control while we’re at it. But blizzard has just driven those DPS only players to at least stick their foot into the tanking river – sure, it’s cold, murky, and there are crocodiles in it, but now they at least feel that tension and stress, the fear of failure, and the terrible “Y U NO HOLD THREAT” attitude that they themselves have been giving tanks since… always.

    I think this is Blizzard’s attempt at forcing a homogenization not of classes, not of player skill, but of player attitudes.

    Which is not to say that I think they will succeed. Most of the DPS who try tanking, especially that first rush to pick up a dual talent spec and rush into the fray, will get laughed out, kicked, humiliated, and will only become less likely to tank in the future, and more likely to join into the bad attitudes.

    Then, the group who roll a new tank alt, and actually go through the leveling process trying to learn the game, will also suffer. They are DPS at heart, so the druids will try to level as kitty or boomkin, the warriors as arms, the DKs as frost, the paladins as ret. It will be a similar issue to the inability to level as a healer, since their output is so low – these “LOOK AT MY BIG NUMBERS” dps will yearn to level their tanks alts as big number DPS. They will reach 85 with only a bare understanding of their tank spec, and will once again get laughed out.

    Only the ones who get accustomed to tanking while leveling are likely to have any success as heroic tanks, and even they will find the LFD system full of assholes, and they will likely respec back to DPS and leave the incentives untouched.

    I think this experiment will either fail miserably (and make people hate the social environment of LFD only more), or it will have 0 tangible effect.

    • Mama Druid says:

      Hopefully, DPS who are incentivized to level a tank or healer will indeed come away with a better understanding and an appreciation of what it means to play those roles in randoms.

      It will be interesting to see how this experiment works out.

  5. yunk says:

    I think if they want more tanks and healers to pug, then bribes will not do it. What they need is a strong friends and rating system, and allow you to set filters in LFD. Sure all ratings sytems can be gamed, but they are better than no information at all.

  6. Nik says:

    WELL SAID!!! I agree with you 100% on this. Thanks for expressing the thoughts of all intelligent mature WoW players.

    I’ve always been a PvPer, but Wrath had me loving PvE. I would heal and tank on my Paladin and DK. Cata releases and the content is fun and challenging………but………wait for it…….everyone is an ASS! I dropped both my Holy Paladin main and DK tank alt to have fun on my Rogue! I don’t q for dungeons and I don’t raid. I strictly do BG’s (rated and normal), Arena, quests and gathering. I’ve never had more fun playing this game! Guess what? There are tons of players just like me! I’ve found a guild of people dedicated to PvP (non-elitists too!).

    I think this sums it all up “So. I stopped queueing up as a tank in LFD because of the abuse I was receiving. Chance at loot and Purples and points to buy loot were not more valuable to me than my self-respect.”

    Thanks, BBB!

  7. Copey says:

    It’s funny you mention this 3B. Ever since the LFD tool came about in Wrath, I’ve been using it to get my daily heroic. I’m a tank first and foremost for my guild, always have been. But, it took…oh about a week to learn the inherent evil of tanking randoms with the tool. So I switched my 2nd spec from boomy to heals and started healing them. I had enough gear and experience from healing in BC that it was pretty easy. To this day I HEAL heroics. Only during the initial leveling boom of Cat did I tank them, and that was with a bunch of hard core guildies that all power leveled our toons up through dungeons.

    I heal randoms for all the reasons you mentioned. The que is just a couple minutes, allows me to knock out my JC, fishing, and cooking dailies, and then we get in and I muscle the encounter with my raid quality healing gear. Dps pull threat, stand in shizz, and they get a warning. After that I just let them die, and happily admit I’m a terrible healer. Tanking randoms is far worse, because often times the heals will keep healing those dps, and you have to fight fight fight for aggro, and it’s a spastic battle that leaves me frazzled.

    The extra incentives being offered mean little to me, other than I’ll probably be healing newer tanks that are just learning the ropes. It will be interesting to see what this does, if anything to peoples daily runs. I’m more inclined to run with guildies despite the possibility of free swag.

  8. Voice of Raisins says:

    I see the issues that thedailyblink brought up. All this will do is bring in off-spec tanks, part time tanks, inexperienced tanks. I used to tank. I used to play prot pally back in the days of Naxxramas and then again when the LFD tool came in but the pug abuse made me hang up my shield in disgust. Half the time I was tempted to let the rest of the party die.

    I now play DPS (mage) on the under populated side of a low population server. Towards the end of WotLK it used to be said in our trade that we only had 5 decent tanks and 3 of them were the alts on one player (luckily for me, my GM).

    Because of the nature of a small community everyone knows everyone else. I know the good tanks and the bad tanks on my realm and since this announcement was made ALL of the good tanks have shrugged their virtual shoulders and said “Meh… still won’t PuG.”

    We’ll have to wait and see what happens but with queue time and run time it generally takes me 45-50mins to complete my daily heroic. I think the queue time will drop and the run time will increase (along with the frustration) but as long as the aggregate is quicker then I’ll be happy.

  9. raydenuni says:

    I don’t really approach this from the same way you do. I don’t have many problems with pugs. I don’t get the numerous insults you get, rarely do I get people who are rude. I find pugs to be a much more efficient way to do a heroic than putting together my own group. Right now I usually queue with one friend and that’s it. I enjoy tanking in pugs because it lets me be in charge and call the pulls. When I heal it’s frustrating to watch the tank pull poorly over and over, but I don’t have that problem when tanking.

    So it’s not an issue of whoring myself out for pets, as I’m already willing to run my daily for VP. I’m interested in what sort of rewards I will be getting for doing what I already do. How much gold? How many gems? How often will I get flasks? I highly doubt the reward will be better than what I could farm on my own time. And I may never see these rewards, as the cost of solo queuing is rather high. I want at least one friend I can bitch with about the dps.

  10. [...] reading BBB’s post A Call to Bribe got me thinking about what is my price as a tank.  I actually have 2 level 85 tanks at the moment [...]

  11. FaceTank says:

    I think it is laughable that they think that this will push tanks into tanking more. Tanks on my server are already constantly spamming trade chat that they want 100-200g for the instantqueue and they don’t even need to finish the instance to get it. I used to love love love tanking and even on fast smooth runs people would still be yelling at each other. It got to the point where it was no longer enjoyable to do them so I stopped. Tanks could make a ton of money per run just inviting people to group and queueing up. If that fact doesn’t get them to tank now then I cannot imagine some of these rewards will.

    It will be interesting though to see how fast any interest in this wanes when people starting getting booted from pugs for being inexperienced/undergeared etc and realize that their chances of getting a little loot bag are low.

    I can also imagine that there will be some jealous dps that are going to have a hair trigger on their vote kick button to stop tanks from getting any extra rewards.

  12. Phelps says:

    This actually gets to the heart of the issue. A big part of the problem is that the very same people who play tanks and healers to start with are the ones with the self respect and self confidence to say, “no — I don’t need you. I don’t need LFG.”

    This really isn’t a problem Blizzard created (unless you want to blame the ease of heroics in Wrath.) This is a problem that the DPS Commmunity created. The DPS community (and yes, in every rotten community there are some good and nice people, but that doesn’t change the overall crap level of the community) has been so rude, obnoxious, and vile that no one wants to deal with them anymore. There really isn’t a shortage of tanks or healers. There is a shortage of tanks and healers willing to queue for a random group. Who suffers? The random DPS community.

    The idea of a ratings system strikes me as the way to solve this problem. Let everyone rate everyone else, and match up groups based on how they get rated by others, like the Netflix system. If you rated a player the same as another tank, then you get matched to other people that tank rated highly. And if you are constantly rated so low that you don’t match anyone, well, there’s gonna be terribad tanks out there too, and you’ll be matched to them. Unfortunately, given that the system seems to try to make groups with as widely different iLevel gear as possible, that doesn’t seem to be the philosophy that Blizzard endorses. Blizzard doesn’t want matched groups — they want boosting.

    • Darthregis says:

      I mostly agree with your second paragraph. I still think there is a shortage of tanks and I believe it mostly stems from 25 man and possibly old 40 man raiding. The 5-man dungeon group ratio is 1:3:1 (Tank:DPS:Heal). There is a similar ratio for 10-man raiding with maybe some variance in DPS:Heals. 25-man raids put it to something more like a 1:5.7:2 ratio. So, for two expansions (TBC & Wrath), a “surplus” of DPS was being created to fill the gaps of larger raids. I feel this is the root cause of the longer queues for LFD groups.

      The general attitude of PuGs, where the Tank (and sometimes healer) end up on the receiving end of a lot of abuse does exactly as you said; it reduces the number of willing tanks/heals to use the LFD. So, it isn’t the core of the problem, it’s just another part of it. Would switching all raids to have that 1:3:1 ratio fix the problem? At this stage, probably not. Because, really, how do you actually adjust the attitude of groups or protect people from those that abuse it? Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s a simple fix.

      The qualm I have with a rating system is that it can still be subject to abuse where people can end up with ratings they don’t deserve.

      Maybe it would be better, but at this point, I think things are far too “broken” to expect anything more than a crutch.

      • Kemonojin says:

        It’s not that there’s a surplus of DPS because of raids… there’s a surplus of DPS because you don’t have to really pay attention to do it. Tanks and healers, you have to watch things and do things at the right time. DPS, you can just do whatever. You won’t be the best at it, but if you have a good tank, you won’t die and you get free stuff.

        When I’ve run as a healer, I’ve usually had pretty good groups. I was a good tank at the beginning of LK, but all my friends faded away, and the beloved druid got shelves for two years, while I ran the paladin then shaman healers. Now, the guild’s grown enough that I’m not absolutely required for healing anymore. I dusted off the druid, and found out… I don’t really know how to tank anymore. It’s been changed enough in that time that while I have the reflexes for ‘watch this, watch that, get the other’, the tools are different enough that I’m having trouble. And with wanting to NOT be the lousy tank that buggers up other people’s random runs, I need my guild to help me practice… but the only time we can get together more than a couple of people is on raid night, when we don’t have time. So, I do what I can, and take the abuse from DPS shrieking that I’m pulling too slowly and that I let them die when they pulled the four pack while the healer was out of mana, while I kept the rest of them off of him after the innervate.

        But I’ve seen the other side too, as a healer. Tanks that don’t wait for me to get mana then blame me because they died. One DPS dies, the body roasting gently in the fire he was standing in, and it’s my fault. In my experience, which is admittedly limited, the DPS is generally not abusive, or maybe one in ten or so. Tanks have a sense of entitlement, ‘You won’t even BE here if it wasn’t for me!”. DPS is just happy to get a run after an hour wait, most of the time. Although they haven’t figured out that a druid’s aggro is a delicate flower at the start of the fight, and go all instant cast trinketed pyroblast that crits for 4.7 jiggawatts on the ouchdammitometer and earns them a face full of mook. I’ve had tanks drop the group in the middle of a fight that we were winning because they didn’t like the way my shaman was healing. Not because they were low on health and had to keep using their ohcraps, just that I was using spell A instead of spell B.

        Yeah, if I had a chance at a spectral tiger, the ZG tiger, the ZA bear, or the cross faction mounts, I’d definitely do it more… but not without ever being able to bring a friend. I play the game to have fun, and friends are fun. I like making new ones, but I have the old ones for a reason…

        (sorry, this got rambly, I’m up late. :P )

    • Meerkat says:

      Hate to break this to you. But there are as many bad tanks, both attitude and ability as there are dps. Also hate to break this to you, but tanking hasn’t been hard since BC and before with all the new tools people have. If you’re going to lump a group of people together and blame them for the problem, you had better expect someone who’s played since the day of WoW’s release to come along and point out that for every bad dps story there is also a bad tank or healer story.

  13. Xew says:

    The Pug pet from WotLK – that was done well. Queue up with friends, get it slower – queue up solo, get it faster. If they did that for CtA, where you were guaranteed a mount every 10, 25, 50 whatever successes, I’d be all for it.

    You’d still run into the problem of tanks eventually stopping when they’ve gone all Pokemon and ‘got them all’ but at least it wouldn’t be a suckers game at that point.

    Also, I’d start tanking on my pally, druid and DK if I had a chance in hell of getting the white griffon. I HATE alliance – burning core passion of death to the Alliance – but god damn, that white griffon is the shit. Best mount in the game, imo – and that’s including the frost wyrms and phoenixes… One more reason to hate the Alliance. bastards. :)

  14. Boocat says:

    I completely agree. I’ve been wanting to try tanking for ages and actually tried a couple of times, but dealing with asshats that don’t give you a chance to learn soured me on that. My husband is a tank and he can’t stand these random groups. I usually roll with him as his healer and I can’t tell you how many times we’ve dropped out of randoms because of the people in them.

    So yeah if Blizz wants to bribe they’d better up the ante.

  15. Adam says:

    Totally Agree with everyone here, you have awesome commenters BBB.

    The thing im hopeing for is that those dps who think that tanking is easy, and roll as a tank to get instant que’s, find out just how much of a pain in the ass Damage dealers can be on a tank. An example is a RL friend who just picked up Wow agian after not playing since vanilla. He used to do all the stereotypical things that Dpsers do, and started lvling a prot pally, saying how easy it was he could solo mana tombs at 65. Once he got to 85 however he relealized the pain that is asshat dps. Maybe this stimulus package will a good thing, but thats hoping for a lot. Myself i still wont be queing without my pocket priest and fury warrior friend.

    • Minos says:

      Yes! For as long as I’ve been tanking in dungeons, I’ve said that truly good DPS need to understand the tank and vice versa. Maybe one day I’ll be able to do Line of Sight pulls without 2 DPS and a healer standing out in the open watching half a pack of mobs bear down on them.

    • Kay says:

      The problem with this is that a large part of the player base is young and will have trouble empathizing to that degree. They will blame the particular DPS they encountered and think “everyone but me sucks at this game” and never connect it to their own behavior as DPS.

  16. ex-tank says:

    Best idea I have heard for incentive would be giving tanks/healers a reduced votekick CD and letting their vote count double against DPS. It would definitely allow for tanks to start correcting the root problem of asshat DPS.

    • Tsudrats says:

      Oh now there is a bribe that would keep me on tank/heals toons :D

      • Tsudrats says:

        That does sort of contradict my later post … only a bit … I actually have not really had too many bad experiences in randoms … maybe 5 or 6 in all … since LFD got introduced … so that is a lot of dungeon time.

  17. Sar says:

    I think one way would be to offer opposite faction mounts. Give everyone “points” or something towards the mounts so its predictable and controllable, like the pug pet. But give bonus points to the tanks / healers for queuing. I’m horde, and if I could get one of the alliance tiger mounts every 10 or 20 runs… I guarantee I’d be queuing every few days.

  18. Rauxis says:

    I’m not sure that I’d want to play with those tanks who need an incentive to tank in the first place…. correction, looking at tanks that announce in /trade “running for 200G apiece” I’m damn sure I would not want to run with such people.

    And Phelps – IMHO you are wrong. Blizz put in the cross server LFD tool in the first place. Even with LK easy mode heroics the level of asshattery was low before that change – likely because you were not Mr. Anonymous. You were held responsible for your actions, and the way you announced yourself in /lfg told volumes about how you would behave in the group.

    Rauxis, chosen of CAT

  19. lenitoons says:

    One thing I wish more people would bring into the discussion is how few specs are even eligible to tank. I mean 10 classes, 3 talent trees each, means 30 specs minimum, right? Of those exactly 4 can tank. And I think one could argue that 2 of those specs are only effective at end game tanking–which is what heroics are, I know, but it also means you can’t practice tanking on those toons for a long time. Who wants to spend all that time leveling a toon for a role you might not even like?

    BBB did a post a while ago–sorry bear, I’ve forgotten which one–about making EVERY class a “hybrid”, that way people can stay on their favorite character but try out a new role. I thought it was a pretty cool idea, some didn’t, but I think it’s worth discussing again, at least as much as a bribe is, anyway. ;)

    I think it’s pretty interesting that Blizz feels the problem’s bad enough that they’re offering anything extra, though–does anyone else feel that way?

  20. Random Poster says:

    I have no problems with them bribing people even if it is only temporary. A temporary fix is better than no fix at all.

    I also don’t have a problem with groups who attempt to abuse me or call me names when I tank now. I simply ignore them. If a DPS wants to pull targets for me, fine for them, they can tank them. See no matter what happens I will have an instant queue they can either put up with the way I want to tank an instance or they can go wait in their 40 minute queue line. I don’t even view myself as being an asshole with that attitude. I feel that I am the one choosing to take on a role that has the highest level of responsibility arguably (healers may disagree, props to them) and if people don’t like the way I do it…screw ‘em I’m not going out of my way to be a dick to them, but I WILL tank the way I am comfortable with. They don’t like it, find another tank, and good luck.

    Am I the most awesome tank ever? Hell no, but I will get you through an instance and I will keep you alive provided you do your part.

  21. Tsudrats says:

    The thing that peeves me a bit about the issue is that it is based on the premise that a long wait time to get into a dungeon is actually a problem. If I log my healer or tank for a night of play time the ONly thing I end up doing is back to back dungeons as the grouping comes pretty fast. Sounds like an odd complaint but I’m a bit short on herbs at the moment, oh and a bit of ore would be good and well, the points from the runs are useful but on these two … I only really get a chance to get the points. I’ll go dps at times as it allows me time to run dungeons and to enjoy other aspects of the game :). Odd I know, but dungeons arn’t the only fun bit of the game and perhaps if the developers remembered this they’d not stoop so low as to consider bribing tanks taring all those who continue tanking as … well as you put it … whores … even if it’s just that they love tanking.

    Grow some proverbials Bliz and stop pandering to the ‘I want my game easy’ brigade … they can go back to minesweeper.

    • Random Poster says:

      But you choose to run the dungeons. If you wanted a longer wait time you could, well, not queue, so I am not sure I understand your point.

      For DPS they have no choice currently, no matter what they do they will have a long wait. Which for some people may not seem bad but if you can only log in for an hour or so and want to get a dungeon done and you spend 40 minutes of that waiting for your chance, it sucks.

  22. Tryss says:

    The only thing that would get me to run PuG’s again (we call it “Trottel-Lotto”) would be if i get a button next to each name that, if pressed, kills that char (dps only would probably be enough).
    Just some way to actually affect another player outside of just “words” that his way of doing things (talking to other players, chainpulling, not waiting on healer mana) is wrong. And no the Kick is not going to work for me because it just removes the player not the problem. Which is that they get away with that behavior most of the time.
    And a lower CD on the Kicktimer would be nice.

  23. Rebecca says:

    Thanks for the mentions! Though I should say it was Hugh who wrote the editorial you’re linking, not me =)

    Though I do share many of his views. Personally, as someone whose main toon is a warrior tank, call to arms changes nothing for me. At present if I do randoms I do them with friends/guildies, or if solo in DPS spec. I don’t tank for a whole group of random potentially idiots. And no way is Call to Arms enough of a bribe to get me to change that. Make it so that I can run with 1-2 friends and get the rewards, or make it so that I get something actually special (even a tank-only horse) and I’ll consider it.

    This is a band-aid. It’s not addressing the real issues of LFD. A better solution as Hugh suggests would be employing more community managers behind the scenes, adding a “report abuse” button and having the new guys hand out bans left right and centre according to some strict new guidelines. Sure, it means Blizzard looses customers – those who behave in a way that gets them banned. But if they continue on the road they’re on, they’re going to loose customers anyway. And those will be the mature folk like you, me, many of our readers – and all they’ll be left with is a pool of rude, abusive people. If they’d approach it the other way they might be able to save their community.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      WHOOPS! Sorry about that. I do know that Hugh writes great editorials on the MMO Melting Pot, but thanks to Twitter, I’m so used to you being the public persona behind the website that I didn’t look close enough at the tagline. :)

  24. Hugh Hancock says:

    Completely agreed. The bribe’s a bit pathetic – I wonder if what happened was that the original idea was mooted by one design team member, but then ended up being watered down before implementation?

    Personally I spent some time thinking about the numbers involved, and came to the conclusion that my minimum price to queue solo for a random, with the prize dependent on my group finishing the dungeon, is about 2,000 gold. Apart from anything else, that’s about the amount I could make farming for the same 2-4 hours I’d be spending in the dungeon, and I much prefer farming to running with an LFD random group.

    Becca’s dead right, though – let me queue with two or even one friend(s) and this reward becomes more interesting. After all, I sometimes queue in LFD anyway with friends – but I never, ever queue solo as a tank.

  25. Beetle says:

    Awesome write-up. And excellent use of harsh language.

    This CTA changes nothing. Only more people that do not like to tank, never tanked before, but access to a tank offspec will now fill the void.
    Expect more cries and complaints about bad tanks and tanks with an attitude.

  26. Ozamalus says:

    My price to come back to WoW and tank again is far higher than anything Blizzard will ever pay. I want my bear to have the same or similar tools as other tanks (Fear break and AoE threat, I’m looking at you) and I want cross-server LFD gone.

    The root of ALL pug problems is cross-server LFD. It hasn’t reduced queue times for most, tanks and healers had almost instant queue times before LFD but DPS had to wait. Fast forward to today and guess what? It’s exactly the same! The anonymity of LFD has, on the other hand, allowed the community to become so disgusting that many of us won’t think of a pug no matter what the bribe.

    • nugget says:

      I think I wuv you.

      I went back for one month for cata. Had serious culture shock (quit just before WotLK). Levelled a holy priest to 85 and then unsubbed.

      The WoW I once liked, if never loved, is long, long gone. And LFD, I feel, had a lot to do with it.

  27. Belatu says:

    Firstly, BBB, great post as usual. I am a DK tank, have been since Wrath release, and I love it. I am my guild’s MT for its second 10-man, and I’ve rarely been happier while playing this game. But lately, I haven’t been solo-queing for LFD. The general attitude in LFD is as bad as everyone says, and I think anonymity is the real key there. And adding a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries does absolutely nothing to change that. NOTHING.

    Perhaps a better fix is something similar to their forcing the LFD to “prefer” putting people with different gear types together: force it to “prefer” to put people with those of their own realm. This would bring back at least a partial return of realm-based community, especially if it took friend lists into account while doing so. And, the more people you que with, the less it prefers adding people from your realm, to keep the ques low for those on low-pop realms.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      I do love that concept. I really do. Just because it’s got a huige pool of servers to choose from doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t try and matchmake with people from your own realm.

      In a lot of ways, I wish we could simply collapse all the servers taht it picks from down into one, so all the same people were all in one big community, and could once again get nailed for their behavior and develop a reputation.

      • Guthammer says:

        I do love that concept. I really do. Just because it’s got a huige pool of servers to choose from doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t try and matchmake with people from your own realm.

        In a lot of ways, I wish we could simply collapse all the servers taht it picks from down into one, so all the same people were all in one big community, and could once again get nailed for their behavior and develop a reputation.

        LFD is big enough to be effectively anonymous so GIFT behavior predominates.

        Either we need rep with all its pitfalls or we need smaller communities in LFD.

    • xth says:

      Your fix is exactly what some coworkers and I were discussing the other day when talking about the breakdown in community. Why can’t we have LFD prioritize your server when putting random groups together? If it can’t make a group within a reasonable timeframe, then go out a level – not to the battlegroup level but to a cluster of similar servers in your battlegroup, say a group of three or four – then the battlegroup, then the region. It would be a step toward getting a sense of community again and hopefully reign in some of the bad behavior. As an example, I know that after getting a rather obnoxious tank from our server in a LFD random a few months ago in an otherwise full guild group, that particular tank has been blacklisted – we won’t be running any PUG raids that he’s involved in, nor will he find himself welcome should he ever apply to join us.

  28. Tesh says:

    I maintain that the proper “fix” is to change tanking and address why people aren’t having fun with it. Bribery doesn’t work for long, and it sets a bad precedent.

    • Random Poster says:

      There is no fix. People hate responsibility. People play games to get AWAY from responsibility, so unless you get rid of the tanking position entirely you will always have this problem.

      Tanking is more dynamic in WoW than it ever has been, but people can’t just enjoy it like say a DPS can because they have to keep the other people alive, often despite their own stupidity. How do you propose that is fixed?

      • Tesh says:

        I’ve written about it before, several times. Get rid of the unholy trinity. Make every player responsible for their own hide and give them the tools to do so. WoW is too beholden to the trinity to change that way, I’ll concede that likely point, but the game has structural problems that make the social problems inevitable. Band-aids and bribes won’t fix that.

        • Adanos says:

          I dont think the issue is the unholy trinity, I really dont… the issue here has been the different politics Blizzard had in the last few years to encourage asshats, basically. Blizzard has done everything in their power to maximize the amount of money they can make, and if that provoked a huge dip in customer satisfaction so be it.

          As many have said already, for most of us this changes nothing, I dont do PUGs for the same reason as BBB and most of the tanks, I just cant stand it, I dont play this game to get stressed out by some moron, I do my randoms with my guild, with people who actually gives a fuck about doing their job, just like I do.

          The issue here is basically what BBB said, they have created such a hostile enviroment, not by making the LFD which is an awesome idea, but by encouraging people to be idiots and not have any sort of consecuence. Once upon a time if you were an idiot, you’d eventually run out of people willing to take you, that at the very least was some sort of consecuence for your actions, now you have none… people can block you, yes… but your not running out of people anytime soon.
          So, of course now any tank with some semblance of love for himself wont queue for full random pug, and people are complaining, so instead of trying to fix the underlying problem (the asshats) they try to bribe us into queuing, good luck with that… as BBB said, I may be a whore, but I’aint that cheap brother!

          I really think some sort of “reputation” system, would be just awesome… where at the end of the pug people grade you, and you get an average rating. Then people can queue and ask for a “minimum average” rating to play with, that would make the asshats have to play to each other and maybe someday they’ll realize they need to actually behave like a human being even ingame.

          Again, I dont think the trinity is the issue, there’s a lot of us that enjoy tanking quite a lot… the issue is that clearly there’s a lot of people who wont queue for pugs as tanks cause we are not masochists.

          • Lujanera says:

            Adanos, I think you’ve done a great job of identifying what is the problem in LFD. Most tanks I know really enjoy tanking, but I don’t believe any of them enjoy tanking in LFD. I certainly don’t.

            One of the keys of any kind of game — MMOs, LAN games, board games, sports — is playing with people I enjoy playing with. Otherwise, why bother? One of the real weaknesses of LFD is that I lose a great deal of control over who I play with. That’s not fun; that’s the WoW equivalent of putting two bugs in a jar and shaking it.

            Want to make LFD better? Make it matter how people behave during a run. If people in my run today like me, give me a better chance tomorrow to be grouped with people who were liked during their last run. Think about it — I want to be grouped with quality dps and they (presumably) want to be grouped with me. Why can’t LFD make that happen?

          • Pawzy says:

            The rating idea could be potentially abused. You could go in, do a decent job, and still get rated low by someone who had their wheaties pissed in by someone else and decided to take it out on some random stranger in a PuG.

  29. Pawzy says:

    This… A thousand times this!

    The abuse is why my warrior is permanently fury spec, why my shaman changed to elemental from resto and why my first ever 85, my priest, only cues for randoms in shadow spec. I’ll heal them if I have friends/guildmates in the group, but that’s about it. I don’t enjoy OTHER people being stupid and blaming me for it. I come to the dungeons prepared: food buffs, flasks, mana/heal pots, properly spec’d and ready to try my best for success. Be that as it may… I CAN’T HEAL THROUGH STUPID!

  30. [...] a particular task isn’t something that sits well with everyone. There are tanks out there who don’t like the idea of being bribed, while some others feel that the price isn’t high enough for them to enter LFD. That said, it [...]

  31. Ben says:

    What are your thoughts on this scenario… if the bribe is good enough to get people who’ve never tanked to try it, regardless if it’s good enough to convince established tanks to pug, and even assuming that most of them quickly realize they suck at tanking, what do you think the chances are that there will be a ‘critical mass’ of previously DPS-only players who will suddenly realize how frustrating tanking can be and become better team players? I’m just thinking that if everyone was somehow forced to tank a bit and heal a bit before they could dps, they’d probably play differently when they do dps.
    Personally, I’m not very hopeful, but I wanted to throw it out there :)
    -Ben

    • bigbearbutt says:

      I’m a hoping and a praying.

      I’ve had a lot of people email me over the years, to tell me that they’d always played as DPS and loved it, but (and especially when dual class came out) they finally decided to try tanking, and suddenly got the whole game and their own behavior smack in the face like an overripe fish. They said that, while they’d never tank themselves after that, it gave them a whole new appreciation for what tanks go through, and served as a form of attitude adjustment.

      We can hope… but I still feel Hugh at MMO Melting Pot touched on something primal with the whole anonymous situation. It was the same in BC and Vanilla, but let me tell you, I may have had runs with strangers from my own servers where the players were bad, but I rarely if ever got runs with such wanton disregard for other people like I’ve seen in LFD. The anonymity, with some people, really does seem to lead directly to arrogant, offensive behavior, and I can’t say it’s all because they don’t understand the pressures the other players were under. I can’t. It all seems to be more that some players really do get off on being assholes, but want to try and find some grain of motive to wrap it around, maybe so they think it’ll hurt more.

  32. Gnomeaggedon says:

    Every time Gnomeaggedon tanks he cops abuse… something to do with the fact that Mages can’t tank… so they say.

    Being slightly more serious, one of our healers rarely does a pug without one of us guildies at her side. This is often me as I am prepare to speak up, or select vote kick when she is getting an earful.

    If they allowed this to work for two, there is a good chance that tank/healer combos (or mix in a dps friend), who often form good relationships, would queue for multiples.. on their own, why bother?

    I thought the whole idea of the new guild system was to introduce unbreakable bonds… only to then encourage the tanks and healers to skip out on their guilds.

    From a healer’s perspective (Squidly’s), the only enjoyable heroic runs I have had were with guildies. In part because Squid is at the low end of the gear spectrum and hasn’t healed much since Wrath, but mainly because a wipe of party member death is laughed off – not something that happens often in a pug unless at least one other party member is a guildy that breaks the tension.

    Last time I queued as heals, the tank was already on the 1st trash pack while I was zoning in.. the 1st comms I got was “WTF!” from the tank. He then proceeded to tell me he didn’t need to be there as he was completely geared. Apparently he did need me, because he didn’t get a heal on the next trash pack from me.

    There was also the group that couldn’t pull more than 4k dps, which the tank decided they would do a zerg run. Mind you, the dps didn’t step up and play smart. The one sheep I saw early on broke and hit on me while there were still 4 mobs on the tank.. the Mage (standing next to me) didn’t resheep, just kept dpsing… mongrel Mage didn’t even offer food.

    Since then I just queue as Ele, even though I would prefer to queue as Resto… but if a tank isn’t prepared to work with their healer, what hope does a healer have with DPS?

    Bonus… whatever…
    Playing with mates & guildies.. yes even if we are surrounded by pugs.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      That’s where I fall on this as well. I understand that they want to push tanks to solo queue to get as many solo players in a group as quick as possible… but if they let me bring a single friend, then I’d robaby be 100% more likely to DO it.

      As was said earlier, I need at elast one person I can trust to vent to about the horrible behavior, at least. That helps keep me through it.

      As was also said earlier, hey, if they want to have a sliding scale, just like guild XP, but in reverse, where the fewer people you’re grouped with the more loot you get, hey, that’s great.

  33. Decuma says:

    a post that causes my to delurk…

    As a healer I will not queue in LFD unless i have a pocket guild tank… i stopped the moment a DPS whispered me ( before any pulls ) and said the tank is an idiot, just keep me alive and it will be ok. Right after this the tank explained he was new to tanking and would we please help him figure out who to cc… the arrogant asshat DPS pulled at that moment… guess who i let die

    I love tanks… good ones… and no that doesnt mean experienced raid tanks.. i mean tanks that communicate. If a tank says hey guys i am new to this, any help is appreciated then i will do everything in my power to keep him/her alive and moving through the instance. I dont care if it takes 6 hours..

    to the DPS who think they know everything, or that CC isnt needed, or that tanks dont matter… i hope you all sit in a LFD queue for as long as possible..

    I have tried tanking… its hard… learning it takes time.. i dont enjoy it… keeping you alive while you growl at things.. now that is fun… even more fun with DPS who know their jobs and let the tank do his/her job

    sorry for the rant .. but this one issue makes my brain explode… work together or leave and lets get someone who will work as a team… cos you know what .. it is a team sport

  34. Zy says:

    There are plenty of tanks and healers, they just don’t want to deal with the cesspool that is LFD. This isn’t a fix, it’s a short term bandaid and I think it will even fail at that.

  35. Erthshade says:

    Just one thing that came to me after reading this.

    “How dare he try to bribe me, thought Moist. In fact, that was his second thought, that of the soon-to-be wearer of a gold-ish chain. His first thought, courtesy of the old Moist, was: how dare he try to bribe me so small.” —Terry Pratchett, Making Money

  36. Feature says:

    Win!

    But having seen all the DPS QQ over the awards being offered to tanks so far, I can only image how bad it would be if they offered something truly awesome.

    I like to tank, and I often queue alone, However my guild don’t need tanks so I have a Resto/Boomkin spec. While this bribe MAY motivate me to spec back to Bear in between raid nights occasionally what it would really take for me to tank more often is a third spec. I don’t mind the gold cost of respeccing, but I detest the actual respeccing process. Even with mods like talented it’s still a pain having to go through your spellbook everytime making sure you didn’t miss anything.

  37. Necrodin says:

    I’ve suggested it on the official forums, but it has been lost amongst all the hooha;

    “A simple way to balance this for dps would be to give those who sit in the dps queue for longer than xx number of minutes a scaling reward as well. i.e greater than 15 mins 5 Valor points, increasing by 5 each extra 5 mins in the queue.
    This would help the dps get geared up faster, making them less likely to queue and thus shortening the number of dps in the queue !”

    This would be ‘compensation’ to the dps for sitting in a queue that is getting longer and longer.
    the longer they sit the greater the reward. If they’re after badges then they’ll get geared up quicker by being there longer, and then may not be in the queue at all…

  38. [...] Big Bear Butt suggest that the rewards should be more substantial.

  39. Dorgol says:

    I don’t understand people’s fear of LFD.

    I remember a few years ago someone complaining about always losing their Battlegrounds and the response was “the only constant in your BGs is you”. In otherwords – maybe you’re the problem.

    I dare say that this holds true in LFD as well. If all your LFD experiences turn into people insulting, ragequitting, or abusing you – maybe the problem is you.

    Everyone comes at these things from their own experiences, but I just can’t see how my experience is so unique. In Wrath I was running all 4 tank classes at the cap. Right now 3 of my tanks are maxed and fully geared up – all from LFD! When including my healers and DPS characters, I’ve literally run HUNDREDS of LFD 5-mans, and I’ve only been kicked once. I’ve been insulted or “abused” a few times – there are assholes out there – but these occasions are so few I can’t even remember the last time.

    LFD is an amazing tool. It has completely changed the game, and for the better.

    As for the bribe – I’m looking forward to it. For one – my tanks will get rewarded for doing more of what I already do. For two – maybe I’ll take the time to actually queue up on my Warlock, Hunter, Mage, and Shaman again.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      So what you’re saying, and i’m basing this on your tone and the genetal thrust of other commenters is… In your runs, YOU’RE the asshat bullying tank. Or did I miss something?

      • Dorgol says:

        Its just frustrating when I see things like “I tried tanking in LFD, got abused, so all LFD groups are full of asshats”.

        Its like saying “I went to Taco Bell, got sick, and so all Taco Bells will make me sick”.

        Are there asshats in LFD? Absolutely. But there are also asshats in your guild, your BG, your raids, etc. The overwhelming majority of LFD players are just like you, me, everyone – we want a clean clear of a heroic dungeon.

        Going by my stats in WotLK (since there are no Cata stats):

        226 randoms as a Paladin (all rolls, though mainly Heals and Tank)
        219 randoms as a Warrior (overwhelmingly as a Tank)
        143 randoms as a DK (exclusively as a Tank)
        152 randoms as a Warlock
        121 randoms as a Druid (primarily as heals, tanking at the end)
        56 randoms as a Shaman (heals and DPS both)

        Sadly, Cataclysm stats simply don’t exist, so I can’t give those. However, I have fully geared a DK, Warrior, Paladin, Hunter, and Warlock to 346+ ilvl – all from LFD heroics. I’m getting close to completing 1,000 5-man dungeons via LFD… and I’ve had a ridiculously small number of bad experiences.

        So why are so many people raging about bad PUGs? There are only two situations that I can see: They run a few dungeons, have a bad experience, and never go back. OR they are part of the problem and thus cause frustration for the other 4 people in their group.

        • Adanos says:

          eeerm, what you simply just ignore is that all the frustration for us tanks (and also healers) from LFD pugs, its that most of DPS are idiots, who ignore threat tables, pull whatever they feel like to pull, or start insulting cause your giving your healer a Mana Break. THATS what get people pissed off, and why should we put up with other people’s crap, when I have a fully functional guild?

          Thats whats really puzzling about Blizzard, well not puzzling, they are basically pussies who at the very first sign of trouble for the morons who dont try to create social bonds with their guildmates, or even dont get into guilds, they panic out and try to cater to them. Wrath was the most unsocial of the expansions, and they went into Cataclysm giving a lot of incentives to people to get into guilds, and they stressed the importance of getting into guilds, etc. So, now they try to go 180º on that…. cause if you only can queue by yourself to LFD then basically its a “screw your guild” kinda move, and I really dont understand it, actually I do…. but it makes me loose even more respect from Blizzard, cause its sad… instead of trying to make this asshats/morons act like a human being in a social enviroment, they basically modify all the rules so you cant kick their asses off, forces you to queue alone, without a healer friend, etc to make you deal with those idiots, instead of trying to engineer changes to force those idiots to behave like human beings.

          • Dorgol says:

            I’m not ignore it, I’m saying it isn’t anywhere near as bad as the naysayers would have you believe. Does it happen? Absolutely. Is LFD a “cesspool” full of “idiots”

            And how are “most DPS idiots”? Even with a conservative number of 500 random dungeons as a tank or healer, I’ve easily grouped with 2000+ DPS, and the number that are “idiots” is ridiculously small. Even if I DO end up with an idiot in my group, he constitutes only 20% of the team – and that is something I (and the other 3 members) can adjust to cover for their shortcomings. In extreme cases you can even do a vote kick. Sidenote: Despite running all these hundreds of random groups, my vote kick feature does not have a 2 hour CD, I believe I sit at around 15 minutes (though I can’t be sure because I don’t initiate enough kicks).

            As for your 2nd paragraph – in no way does the loot bag “force” you to queue solo, it REWARDS you for queueing solo. People still left Oculus after the bag was added, but for many the reward was good enough.

        • bigbearbutt says:

          And I say again that I’m questioning your entire argument.

          You start your last comment by taking the entire conversation and stream of comments, and characterizing everyone else’s position as being afraid of LFD. Really. Everybody else in the entire thread is a puling coward afraid of LFD.

          That’s what you did. That;s the rhetoric you used. That set the tone of how you intended to open a dialogue. By immediately discounting everyone else’s opinion as being that of cowards, or of people who haven’t actually run any heroics.

          You also show that you really don’t care what anyone else thinks, you know the real deal.

          Maybe in the game itself you show consideration to others when you run as a tank in PUGs, maybe when you’re the tank in charge you show the strangers there more thoughtfulness than you do here. Maybe you are considerate of how the healer is doing on mana or pacing, maybe you actually work at having a smooth group by communicating and use CC or marks instead of acting like it’s beneath you.

          I dunno. But from the way you swaggered into this conversation, I sure as hell would never want to run with you to find out.

          Showing that you’ve run a lot of randoms only proves that you’ve run a lot of randoms. It doesn’t indicate whether, exactly as you say, the problem is you. In this case, that maybe you’re the abusive asshat, but since yuo’re the tank, nobody else wants to call you on your BS because hey, you’re the tank, and if they piss you off you’ll take your bat and ball and go home.

          • Dorgol says:

            I wasn’t discounting their opinion, but I did put a word to that opinion. Maybe fear wasn’t the right word? Maybe “disgust” would have been better.

            But my argument still stands: the majority of people posting on blogs / forums regarding this topic have a universal hatred of LFD and LFD players. Where comments like “idiot DPS” are not only the norm, they are cheered on. And in my experience (and my experience is substantial) those statements are grossly exagerated to the point of silliness.

            “Showing that you’ve run a lot of randoms only proves that you’ve run a lot of randoms. It doesn’t indicate whether, exactly as you say, the problem is you. In this case, that maybe you’re the abusive asshat, but since yuo’re the tank, nobody else wants to call you on your BS because hey, you’re the tank, and if they piss you off you’ll take your bat and ball and go home.”

            Which is why I listed all my characters and not just my tanks. People are sometimes “afraid” to kick a tank, but by listing the hundreds I ran as a Warlock (and I realize now I forgot to include my Mage’s stats /shrug) I tried to show that my experience is from all points of view.

            So my opinion, fully stated out: LFD is NOT a cesspool. The majority of players in LFD are NOT idiots.

          • Fangtastic says:

            Didn’t sound like he said only he knew the real deal. He put up his own experiences as a counter viewpoint to everyone elses terribad experiences with LFD. Gave him a lot of grief for just sharing his opinion.

            I’ll share mine too though I’ll likely be flamed to kingdom come.

            LFD SUCKED when Cata launched and everyone was undergeared. It does not suck as much anymore now that people know that standing in shit kills them, what the boss strategies are and now that they have better gear. The 15% buff helps too.

            I suspect that if the majority of people in this thread who are completely put off by LFD were to give it another shot now, they’d find it significantly more bearable (ha!).

            I got burned out tanking / healing Cata, took time off to level toons and now when I go back in there on my bear or warrior in pug runs, the overwhelming majority of the runs are smooth and pleasant. There is the occasional death march where people don’t reply to hellos or other such pleasantries but then again the number is *now* low enough in *my* experience for it to be bearable for me.

            I quite enjoy it to be honest. If my guild wasn’t so big with people always up and willing to queue with a tank, I’d tank more pugs. The occasional imbecile in LFD is an opportunity to hone my tanking. A persistent nitwit can and should be kicked, but in the 100 or so cata runs I’ve done, I think I’ve voted to kick 5 or so times.

            You know where the ratio of asshattery is high? Those are the runs when you land in a pug where 4 people are from the same guild. In that case, 1 in 3 of the runs are obnoxious.

            So no, the goodie bag won’t make me tank more LFDs because my guild scoops me up most times I am on. And I already enjoy pug tanking, so I won’t be tanking “more” – because I already tank whenever I can.

        • Phelps says:

          Or, you have an exceptionally high tolerance for asshattery.

          Seriously, by your own admission, there is pretty much everyone else playing a tank or healer that has one set of experiences, and then there is you — and that means that everyone ELSE has an oddball view?

          Your experience is pretty unique. That may be unsettling to you, but it is what it is. I see it being most likely because you are an exceptionally tolerant person with a ton of inner resilience. The rest of us aren’t as tough.

  40. Moonstalker says:

    After the initial thrill of Cata subsided, my beloved druid gets little play as both tank and healer as I will not put up with the abuse/whining. I’ve left many a group and farmed herbs instead. Shame to have my favorite toon sidelined as much but unless I tank for my friends, I rarely queue up for a heroic. When I queue up as dps, the wait is a great time to farm ore. I often get asked when I dps why I’m so silent. I usually respond “functional mute” (10 points if you get that reference). A little dps silence is worth it to me.

    The new bribes probably aren’t enough to make me change my mind although I’d probably check it out to see if it’s made a difference in attitudes.

    “instant cast trinketed pyroblast that crits for 4.7 jiggawatts on the ouchdammitometer” – THANK YOU Kemonojin for giving it a name.

  41. TheGrumpyElf says:

    I would sooner go on E-Bay and buy a Spectral Tiger Mount for a thousand bucks then queue up for a random on my tank.

    Blizzard seems to have missed the real root of the problem here. It is not that tanks do not want to tank it is just something you grow to hate doing for random people. As you said. You stop for the healer, you are a fail tank. You mark mobs, you are a fail tank. Someone else breaks CC and you pick it up 2 seconds to late, you are a fail tank. Someone is attacking the unmarked target while there is still a skull and X up and they grab aggro, you are a fail tank.

    I’ve always said it and I will say it again.

    Tanking is the easiest job in the game when you are tanking with good players.

    Tanking is the hardest job in the game when you are tanking for bad players.

    Offering me a mount is not going to get me to tank. The need to address the real problem, the players.

    I can not, will not, put myself through dealing with people like that for any amount of goods they can give me. The only way they can get me to tank more randoms, by myself at that, is to make the players better. (By buffs and/or nerfs as needed)

    Even if I did decide to do it the time will come again when I am sick and tired of dealing with all these horrible and/or abusive players and I would stop. So even if I did go, this is only a temporary solution.

    It is like if you have a leak under your sink. You can put some tape on it, it will help for a little while, but it is still broken. You need to replace the pipe if you want to fix it.

    If they where actually interested in fixing the tanking issue they would have went another route instead of thinking of all tanks as prostitutes.

  42. Lokyst says:

    I’ve thought about this for a few days now and I think there are two issues at stake.

    Firstly, there is a shortage of tanks and healers. In this regard, CTA might serve its purpose by motivating people to try out these roles. If you look at it this way CTA is not about bribing old tanks tired of pugging.

    The second issue is that old tanks and healers are not participating in pugs because of the behaviour exhibited there. CTA does nothing for this. And while I have not had many bad experiences while pugging, when I did experience it there was poor behavior from all three roles. I read here about new tanks being kicked based on gear. Healers being kicked undeservedly. Dps being kicked because their dps is below an arbitrary inflating threshold. But I also know there’s two sides to every story.

    Perhaps the answer is the addition of another incentive: if you finish a pug with the same group that you started with, everyone gets a goody bag. Hopefully it’ll make people consider if their behaviour is over the top before acting out, but at the same time maybe it will take care of the times when people are kick happy.

  43. Ute says:

    I’ve been tanking almost exclusively through randoms for the last couple of months. I leveled a druid so I could learn tanking while leveling (I already had max levels of other tank classes).

    The number one reason I didn’t tank before now is exactly what you are saying. I saw how unforgiving people were to them when they messed up. The reason people don’t tank is that it is demanding AND you get tons of abuse while learning. No wonder I ran into so many tanks with attitudes when I was healing/DPSing after being subjected to those types of attitudes all the time.

    If there is a real reason to start tanking, it is that I have to say that once I got better, I have had fewer bad group experiences than I ever had as a healer. It seems that all the DPS and healers mostly want is a tank that is decent and not a jerk. Not universally to be sure, but a higher percentage.

  44. Zato says:

    I have an alt that is a tank – this would only be an incentive to me to run him instead of my main is if every bag contained some BoA item that awarded valor points. That way I could run my tank to help with the tank shortage, without compromising my ability to gear up my main.

  45. Felade says:

    At the beginning of the expansion, when we were all in blues and even greens going into heroics and we didn’t know what was what about these bosses, I totally avoided going with anything less than a full guild group. We figured it out and some of us even managed to score the heroic dungeon hero meta-achievement in blues and rep epics.

    Now, things are much easier. Blizzard has made a pass at all the heroics, making them a bit more pug friendly, and the LFG damage/healing/health bonus stacks to ridiculous levels (15%). I’m not wearing amazing gear on my Warrior tank (he’s just starting to get into raiding, my main toon is a Priest).

    I queue without a guildie in sight these days and do just fine. Every once in awhile, I’ll find a group that is bad, and even an overall good group will not listen and do something unexpected. Sometimes, you find DPS pulling 5k with the 15% buff. Sometimes you find healers who insist on spamming their Flash Heal equivalents and run out of mana every pull. And sometimes you are baffled that so many people don’t seem to understand simple mechanics (Altairus – so many pugs still just stand on one side and wonder why they do so bad).

    But those groups *make me a better tank* because I have to learn (and now, have learned) to compensate for them. I’ve lived through the Stonecore room before Ozruk when a pug hunter pulls 2 trash packs and the big stompy guy at the same time. I’ve lived through terrible pulls of the Foe Reaper 5000 where the only good DPS had to take the reaper downstairs and the fight takes half an hour because the other two DPS are pulling 5k each. These encounters are pretty rare, and usually I don’t even have to say anything anymore because everyone’s cleared all this stuff before and has a pretty good idea of what to do. Once in awhile, though, I get the *opportunity* to become a better tank by compensating for poor play by the team.

    Now, I will agree that perhaps the pot needs to be sweetened. They need to make the drop rate for the mounts and rare stuff better (if only slightly) than it is out in the real world. If Baron’s horsie is a 0.1% drop from Stratholme, then make it a 0.5% drop from the bag of goodies. It can’t be the *same* chance, it has to be a *better* chance or it will probably lose out to just solo running.

    They also should make it any group less than 3 (which is already programmed into the system: see: guild groups), are eligible for the bag (both of them), as long as one of them is eligible for Call to Arms. So say, you’re a tank and you and your buddy healer or buddy uber raid DPS are going to run a Random together (we do this a lot actually). Now, the tank is eligible for Call to Arms. But he gets to bring along a buddy of his choosing. Just one, mind you. But both of you get the goodie bag. I think that would go a long way to bridge the gap. I find that if its me and one other guildie, we can carry just about anyone the LFD finder throws at us (and we get the added benefit of being able to whine behind their back in guild chat).

  46. Revynn says:

    - “Now, if you added ALL the potential mounts, and I mean ALL of them, both factions, every special faction, every instance and every raid, AND all the mounts you could only get from attending events or from the Trading Card Games…”

    If they told me I would be able to get a NElf Saber for my (formerly NElf) Troll Druid, I’d pick up a bear spec by the end of the day. Tell me that I can get a Mechano-Strider for my Belf or a Spectral Tiger without spending $700, every toon I have with the option of picking up a tank/heal spec would do so.

    As it is, the odd chance at a White Hawkstrider that I already have on two characters . . . It’s tempting, but not going to happen.

  47. The Dewd says:

    I have a Druid main. I’ve put a lot of work into him, including learning to DPS (and to Tank) back in BC. I’ve OTed in Gruul’s Lair back in the day (no one like a bear for that) and I’ve tanked when we couldn’t get two main-spec Prots for a 10-man. I’ve soloed at 80 for my raven god mount (got it) and for shots at things like Midnight (no luck), ZG mounts (no luck), and Baron’s Deathcharger (no luck but my Paladin got it on her first kill just because I went in for the Lunar Festival a couple of years ago). My Hunter has the blue drake from the days of Random Occulus Bribes and my Shaman has the bear from the Big Blue Women. I collect mounts and pets even if the wrong toon gets stuff – and it all started way back when in Feralas when I got my Sprite Darter companion.

    I don’t mind tanking, though it’s not my first choice. I’m even going to try out my bear spec again once 4.1 comes out and holding threat is a bit better. But I certainly am not going to queue up for randoms solo just for a shot at mounts and pets I can solo grind. I used to queue solo or in small groups back in Wrath when no one else was on, even when there was a chance of getting the ICC 5-mans. But I’m not going to put up with the current level of abuse that people get in randoms. I *might* queue on my Paladin as a healer (her main spec) if it comes up in the Call to Whore:Random Dungeon Finder but not to tank on my Druid. I’d rather wipe a few times with my guild and get a good laugh out of it – or maybe level another alt from 80->85.

    It’s just like with Trade chat. Every time I tune back in I remember why I tuned out. It seems like almost no one on my server is polite and a simple question about where to find something/someone turns into either a slew of false answers or five minutes of mocking. I’ll usually answer the question in a whisper, if I know the answer and then move on because I can’t stand to see someone with an honest question be treated like that.

  48. Ajumepke says:

    How about free game time? Every 4 dungeon runs you take people through they’ll add 1 days of free gameplay time? Cap it at no more than 5 free day a month. Would tanks whore out for that?

  49. Rachael O'ray says:

    What I don’t see mentioned enough is that the tank shortage was exacerbated by Cataclysm.

    Remember Consecration? passive Argent Defender? … Bliz wanted to make tanking more challenging/difficult. The same for heroics. Now there are reasonable arguments as to whether this makes for a better or worse game. But there can be no question that it results in fewer tanks. So since this expansion was about fewer tanks there needs to be carrots and sticks to get tanks to queue.

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