Amongst the patch notes for Patch 4.2, there was an interesting morsel about proposed changes to Crowd Control functionality.

The news release was a bit ago, has everyone had a chance to think about this yet?

  • Crowd Control
    • Many crowd control abilities no longer cause creatures to attack players when they are cast. The creature will not attack the player when the crowd control wears off, and nearby creatures will not become hostile to the player either. However, if a visible player gets too close to the target creature, the creature will remember and attack the player when the crowd control effect wears off. The intent is to make it easier for dungeon groups to manage crowd control assignments and pulling packs of hostile NPCs. The abilities affected by this change are: Hibernate, Entangling Roots, Wyvern Sting (will still cause hostility when it begins to deal damage), Freezing Trap, Polymorph, Repentance, Shackle Undead, Blind, Hex, Bind Elemental, Banish, Seduction.

This was followed by a hue and cry that momentarily baffled me. Then I remembered that people will whine about bloody well anything, so why not this too?

Reading the comments by the outraged elitist asshats, one thing seemed pretty clear to me. The outraged elitist asshats sound pretty pathetic. At their best, they’re whining like little bitches that mommy Blizz is being nice to some other kids and they don’t like it, it’s not fair.

Any time someone starts complaining about things getting changed, and the subtext of what they’re saying is that it’s not fair how easy/hard something is going to be, I just stop paying attention. Fair? Wah. Suck it up and soldier on, bitch. You don’t like it, Rift is =====> thataway.

If you have a constructive reason why you think a design change will cause issues with balance or whatever, that’s fine, but just bitching that something’s not fair? In a video game? Oh, grow the hell up.

I don’t really feel like trying to figure out how this is bad, or unfair, or whatever. I usually try to put myself in the other person’s position and understand their point of view, but on this one, I can’t be bothered. It’s a stupid thing to bitch about.

The changes to Crowd Control will only affect PvE, and it’ll streamline the mechanics of crowd control so they all affect mobs in the same way.

They won’t all CAST the same way, they won’t LOOK the same way, they won’t have the same durations. You’ll still have melee-range CC, ranged slow cast to instant activation CC, instant cast to stationary trap CC, all sorts of variety.

What is changing is how the mobs react to the player that caused the CC. That’s it. All CC mechanics that result in immobilizing a mob will take the ‘awareness’ aspect off the table.

Why is this something that changes your game? Whats this all about? Why should you even care?

I’m glad you asked. This gives me the opportunity to revisit the fundamentals of Threat.

I love talking about Threat. Why? Because so many people in the groups I see don’t seem to understand the mechanic, and those that do seem to think that this makes them special. You know, as if having read the breakdown on a website made them uber or something. Just like copying a spec, rotation and gear/stat priority off Elitist Jerks made them special.

If reading something someone else explained on the internet can make you uber, well then, by all means, let’s have all of you who read my blog be uber. Why the hell not.

The first thing to know about dealing with groups of mobs is that there is Threat and there is Awareness.

Threat is measured, with numbers, and that means you can compare it between different characters. Threat starts at zero and goes on up. Threat is developed on a mob when that mob suffers damage, or when a character the mob is aware of has damage healed, OR has abilities/stats increased through some other means such as potions/flasks. Threat from damage and Threat from healing are tied to the person that caused the damage or healing.

Awareness is not measured. Awareness is equal to a Threat of zero. A sneeze by a tank will pull aggro away from you.

You gain Awareness when you do something like walk up close to a mob. He physically sees you, and comes charging after you. You didn’t damage the mob, heal damage from yourself, or drink anything that modified/boosted your power, but the mob is coming after you anyway. That is Awareness, with a Threat value of zero.

You also gain Awareness when you generate Threat in a mob that is linked to others in a group.

Mobs can be linked to other nearby mobs, forming a group. A link means that any status change you make to one mob is communicated to the others it is linked to, regardless of YOUR proximity to the other mobs.

I will give you two examples of the difference between linked and unlinked.

When you are very high level, the range at which you’ll face pull a mob gets very small. At 85 you can wander the halls of Blackrock Depths with near impunity.

In most doorways, there will be two mobs standing guard, one on either side. If you walk up to one, you can kill it and the other won’t even see you.

In some doorways, however, the two mobs are linked. Even though you don’t face pull the other mob from physical proximity, the other mob is linked, and when you whack the one, the other comes running.

There is a hallway in BRD that has Fire Elementals lining the length of the hall in linked pairs. It’s on the way to one of the Fire Elemental bosses, where that black anvil thingie is. The mobs are very far apart, opposite sides of the hall and far out of face pull range, but when you tag one, the other is linked, and you have to run over and get it too.

So. Face pulling (physical proximity) causes Awareness. Dealing Threat or face pulling a linked mob causes Awareness in all other mobs it’s linked to.

Most forms of Crowd Control also cause Awareness. A Rogue’s Sap ability does NOT.

Right now, your Rogue can enter stealth, toss a distraction, walk up to melee range of a mob from behind or close to it, and Sap it. Doing this places the mob in a stunned/locked down state for a short period of time. No linked mobs gain Awareness, and if the Sap wears off without action from anyone else, the mob just wakes up and thinks nothing of it.

No Awareness risk at all.

Not so for other forms of Crowd Control. Sheep a mob, Drop a trap to freeze one, and that mob plus all linked mobs gain Awareness of the person that initiated the crowd control… and come running for the person. With a Threat value of zero.

Seems pretty simple, right?

Right now, you’ve got two forms of pull using Crowd Control.

You’ve got the Rogue pull, where the tank marks a Sap target, the Rogue sneaks in and Saps it at their leisure, and then the tank decides when to engage and pull the mobs away from Sap so it doesn’t get broken.

Then you’ve got the “all else” pull, where the tank marks a target and waits for a player to cast crowd control… which pulls all the rest of the mobs to HIM. The tank then intercepts the oncoming group, and if the tank doesn’t have group AoE ready, or misses one, then the poor CC caster gets a face full of mob.

Another potential challenge for the CC pulling method is Healer aggro. If the group is pulling frequently and ignoring the Healer, then you can have the Healer still topping people off when the next pull is made.

What did I say causes actual Threat? Damage done to a mob… and the mob being Aware of someone getting Healed. 

I’ve seen groups where the tank and DPS are charging from mob to mob, and the Healer is isolated and alone, running after them casting heals to top up and then sitting to drink every chance they get. It’s like watching two groups, and sometimes the healer is still casting HoTs to top off people right as they’re firing off Sheep or Freezing Trap… and the mobs head in one direction, then make a 90° direction change to head for the healer instead.

Healing Threat is neat.

Damage Threat is simple; damage done to a mob is Threat on that mob. If you didn’t hit a mob, it doesn’t even know you’re there unless you hit one he’s linked to. You do a point of damage, you get a point of threat. Basically. If this is too complicated, I ain’t getting into the amount of Overthreat needed to pull aggro, or the increased Threat generation from melee DPS as opposed to ranged DPS.

Healing Threat is shared out based on Awareness. Every mob that is Aware of the Healer gets Threat built up… but it’s divided among them all. If there are ten mobs in the group and you toss the tank a heal, only the amount of damage that was actually healed causes Threat, and that Threat is divided up amongst all ten mobs. Like, say as pure example the tank took a hit for 1000 damage. You toss a Flash heal that heals for 10 million. You don’t get 10 million threat, you get 1000 threat, the amount actually healed, divided by ten mobs, for a paltry 100 threat per mob. As the mobs die, the Threat is divided up amongst fewer targets, so technically the fewer mobs, the more Threat per mob the healer generates. Of course, that is usually countered by the longer the fight goes on, the more AoE Threat the tank does.

As long as the mobs are getting hit by the Tank, or someone else.

I love that mechanic. It’s so elegant.

With this Patch 4.2 change, the tank will be able to mark a target for Crowd Control, and not have to worry that the player will fire it off immediately, pulling the group before the tank was prepared. If they fire it off early, the mob will just be CC’d. Oh well.

People are upset about this, and I just don’t get it.

I keep seeing folks saying that now people will be able to have three mobs CC’d, and just faceroll them one at a time.

Yeah? You could do that now with multiple Rogues, whats your point? Or with a Rogue and any other CC activating a pull, which is what I typically see now.

If you’re concerned that this removes your chance to show off how skilled you are in PUGs, let me put that notion to rest, maynard.

I have yet to see anyone chain trap in a normal pug. I have yet to see anyone offer to perform a Misdirect pull on a mob to a tank out of line of sight in a normal pug. I have yet to see any of the CC/DPS juggling that was the heart and soul of doing Moroes in Karazhan, or in Shattered Halls for that matter.

If you think you have these amazing Crowd Control skills, then I am sure you will still have your chance to display them in your heroic pugs. Most players show no sign of ever having HEARD of kiting up to and including level 85 normals. If you break that shit out, you’ll have jaws dropping all over the room.

I can’t even imagine what kind of reaction you’d get if you offered to Misdirect pull onto the LOS tank while having a dropped trap ready to grab the leader at the corner. Someone might Youtube it, and post it with a caption, “SKILL NOT DEAD YET”.

Have I just been playing this game for too long? Have I become the grumpy old man that screams at the young punks whining about their iPhones and Androids that back in my day we had two tin cans and a piece of string, and we didn’t even get new string, we had to cut it off the package of meat dad got at the butchers?

Just, WTF. This is really what you’ve got to bitch about?

I bet there’s a thread somewhere that Rogues are bitching that now nobody will want to use them because they will be the only class that has to get to melee range to use CC.

You know, bitching that now they are the only class that has to show skill, and why can’t they get THEIR game dumbed down, it’s not fair!

Grrr, just grrr.

50 Responses to “The Crowd Control, it is a Changin’”
  1. Shatamall says:

    I liked the last bit of Zarhym’s post:

    We promise that the average group will still wipe in dungeons even with this change. We have plenty of data to back that up that supposition.

    That made me smile.

    Very tangentially related to this, I was leveling my mage this weekend and popped into a ToT run. Half dozen pulls into it, the DK tank says, “Sheep star”. I wander my undead carcass over and turn some poor naga caster into a penguin. The DK then proceeds to drop a DnD right next to the penguin, which of course wanders right the hell into it. Stupid bird.

  2. Rades says:

    I agree with 95% of what you’re saying BBB, but the “We were so much more skilled back in the Kara days” line did make me sigh a little. The reason no one does those pulls nowadays is because they’re simply not required. I mean hell, I could kite a boss’ add all the way back to the entrance like that one boss back in…some old dungeon, just like the good old days. But why bother? It’s not necessary.

    I mean, no one CC’d at all in Wrath. That didn’t mean that all the players capable of CC had quit. It simply wasn’t needed.

    If you want to see who’s really on their game, get pugging and look at who pulls the tricks out of their hat when a pull goes terribly wrong. That’s when you’ll notice the truly skilled players work their magic. ;)

    As to your point though, I agree, it’s great and the only people who are complaining are the ones who a) like complaining about anything, ie the “WAH CATERING TO CASUALS QQ” crowd, or b) people who want to show off their skills, who skilled or not, have serious self-esteem issues if it’s so important to them to impress 4 strangers in a pug.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      I dunno… that’s not what I was trying to say, I was playing off of some of the comments professing superiority in the forum thread, but faced with your sigh… I can’t find it in me to worry about it.

      • Rades says:

        I know that’s not what you were trying to say specifically, but there seems to be this magic about Kara that is both good and bad. I’ve encountered numerous times players who sneered at people who didn’t raid Kara, because “well we raided KARA so we’re OBVIOUSLY better and more skilled than you.” And I’m not denying that of course, raiding Kara DID require skill. But it seemed to be every week in Wrath someone was saying “Man, Kara was so much better than this” or “This fight is okay, but it’s nothing compared to Kara”. It got tired really fast, because apparently if you didn’t raid Kara, you would never, ever reach the esteemed level of those who did. Or so those raiders pining for the Kara days would make you believe.

        Anyway, sorry if my comment was out of line. It was just the general frustration about this Kara mystique getting the best of me.

        • Donnaterassi says:

          Rades,
          I feel the same when my guild mates talk about 5 minute pally buffs.
          That said, IMO:
          Kara was a special time. The game was different, Players were different.
          Going into Kara for a one night clear meant a 5-6 hour time commitment.
          But no one said, “It’s been 2 HOURS, FFS, I’m out.”
          Attempting Illhoof BEFORE Shade? Madness! what if we wipe?
          But when Prince has wiped you 4 times, and you’re making that 5 minute run back to the encounter zone, no one “DC’s” (<-read: ninja logs) no one would have even considered it.

          Six hours 22 minutes. Thats how long my first FULL clear actually took. And that was months into the content.
          The first time a guild (top alliance on our server at the time) did it in 2 hours…we were stunned.
          Then, two raid weeks later they did it in 40 minutes.
          Then a week after Ulduar came out, Two of them cleared Kara in 40 minutes.

          Now you don't even have to wipe, someone scans you, and decides they don't like your gear/enchants/gems/talent configuration and they leave (if you're lucky) or they try to kick you (reason given: herp derp)

          I could go on, but you know what I mean.

          • bigbearbutt says:

            Thank you. When I talk about elite or arrogant asshats, what you describe is really what I’m talking about. There has been a shift in expectations over the years from a lot of people, but I personally haven’t shifted with them. I’m still locked in the past.

            Perhaps the biggest difference back then was we went from the commitment of fielding a 40 person raid team immediately into being able to raid with a 10. In order to raid, we were used to some serious sacrifice. When it changed, it opened raiding up to a lot of people that were unable to make it in 40s.

            At the same time, the immediate step after Kara was a 25 person raid, so most groups taht could field a Kara team knew they either were never going to move past that to SSC, or knew they would be leaving their guild to do it.

            And finally, Karazhan was freaking huge, architecturally pleasing, packed with bosses, just boss kill after boss kill, what, 13 of them? Holy jeebers. And the mechanics were cool, and the loot was tasty purples PLUS tier gear! OMG!

            There was just a massive mental change from Molten Core and BWD to Kara, and while we’ve all adapted in different ways afterwards, the shift was so sudden and dramatic at the time that I’m really not surprised so many of us think of it as a golden age in the game.

        • bigbearbutt says:

          I guess what flummoxed me was that after SUCH an aggressively offensive beginning to my post… the first ‘meh’ came from a flank I hadn’t expected. :) I figured I’d carefully pissed off as much of the WoW player base as possible, but I hadn’t expected that.

        • Tsudrats says:

          Rades you’ve just reminded me of my first couple of months in game. It was post-BC launch and there was a community of ‘elders’ who lent on their canes against the fence down there at Goldshire and dreamt of Vanilla days when fighting took commitment and you appreciated every hard won reward. I think there were comments of dragging horses barefoot through the snow … back in my day type thing. I hear your general Kara mystique frustration.

  3. Klepsacovic says:

    This should make the lives of tanks a lot better. It still feels weird, but I can’t say what’s wrong with it beyond that. Maybe it will make PUGs a bit more fun.

  4. Minos says:

    Last night, I was talking with my guildmates about how hilariously powerful Mind Control would be if it also didn’t aggro. MC one, walk it over to your party, mercilessly kill it, and repeat. You’ve reminded me that some groups are linked regardless of distance between them, though.

  5. I like the CC change, it takes nothing away from the people who could do it well, but makes it slightly easier for the players who are learning. The players who did it badly or not at all will still play the same. Tend to agree that the QQ is rife regardless of what changes, and should be ignored. It will certainly make it better if a CC’er starts a pull when somebody is not ready, I mean that never happens.

    Whats next? A QQ session in the forums about Firelands being released before {a guild} is ready? Sheesh.

  6. Ngita says:

    I have seen quite bit of chain trapping in ZA and the amount of on the fly cc needed for a bear run is quite high. But if the same time, unless you have 2 competent cc in their even a 355 tank and healer are going to have issues with more then 2 mobs.

    BUt its a good change and Blzzard where pretty clear where they aiming the fix, its too make TANKS play easier, not the dps.

  7. JdJdJd says:

    I do understand what you meant by the post and I agree with you. (Or as much as I can for someone who doesn’t play WoW anymore.

    But I have to admit that last bit of the post I was waiting for you to yell “Get off my lawn”. Damn, I feel so old now. And Moroes was a bitch.

    I have been toying with returning to the game but I kinda burned out. The last guild was full of good people but it was rather large and impersonal. Good company and people we like to hang out with would be great but we’ve been pretty unsuccessful at finding that the last couple of go rounds in WoW.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      When I linked to the post in Twitter, I called it my “get off my damn lawn” post. :) Good call.

  8. JdJdJd says:

    And just to add a bit more to that “things just ain’t the same” issue. Misdirecting an LOS pull onto a tank and chain trapping were skills my hubby the hunter was EXPECTED to know how to do. Just like I, in my warlock days, was expected to know how to fear bounce and/or charm.

    Kids these days…they have no clue :P

    • ex-tank says:

      Ah, the fear bounce. I /criedalittle when the removed Curse of Recklessness. Fearing and then casting CoR before mob aggros a new group of mobs was arguably the most skill intensive CCs int eh game and the mark of a skilled lock.

  9. Grim says:

    I have a focus maco on my hunter that announces that is now my misdirect target. I’ve lost track of the number of tanks who whisper to me how awesome that is, who seem genuinely surprised that they’re getting constant misdirects. I don’t know if I’m super-duper at chain-trapping, but I know that there are several fights where its been on me to keep trapped the entire time and I’ve done so with no problem. *shrugs*

    To the point above about tanks marking something for CC, then doing something to unCC it … yeah, had plenty of that. Then they get angry when it’s unCC’d and I can’t CC it again because I’m still on cooldown. Sorry guy, it’s not my fault your AOE melted my ice!

    As an aside, the one GOOD experience I’ve had in the new dungeons was a bear tank. Love me some bear tank.

  10. Big Heals says:

    Disagreeing with a change doesn’t make someone an elitist. Why not just get rid of pack pulls and make sure every pull is a single mob and nobody but the tank takes damage? There’s a legitimate argument that says, changes which make the game easier can make it less fun. Every change is going to be criticized and cheered, which demonstrate that people are still interested in the game. I’d be more worried when changes are no longer debated.

    Here’s a change I could really get behind, instead of moon, star, square, circle for raid makers, they could make them a sheep icon, a trap icon, a little frog icon. Let’s think of ways to improve the communication especially in random groups. Because I picked a Multiple player game to meet people, not just rush anonymously through content like bots.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      Oh god, that would be soooo fun. Changing the appearance of the marks to add a lot of variety. Oh, what a great idea!

      • Tsudrats says:

        Hmm any way we can link your blog to Bliz BBB so that they get to hear good ideas ?

    • Kauket says:

      More, not changed, icons would be nice. Though if you had 2 mages, for example, you’d still have to coordinate. /gasp

  11. Baberth says:

    Part of your post reminds me of the days of running Heroic Shadow Lab a lot with a couple of hunter friends, and the room with Blackheart the Inciter in it. Now those boys knew their MDs and chain traps. But it made the run so much more stress free for the tank [I was a lowly rogue back in those days]
    I also remember that many players had macros and/or addons to announce when CC was breaking. I’ve no idea whether those are used now – the tail end of LK caused me to hate and fear PuGs immensely, and have run a total of 1 since Cata launched. I keep saying I’m going to run one, but then the fear grips me and I go do something like archaeology instead…

    And, since LK I’ve seen so many people confused by the concept of LoS pulls. While levelling, I found them quite needed in dungeons [warrior tank], but saw so many wipes by people in BoA gear running in before I’d even touched the mobs. And would then blame me for the wipes because I had no way of getting aggro back fast enough.
    These are the people that I foresee still screwing up even with these CC changes.

  12. Dinaer says:

    I don’t like the change.

    You bring up the CC techniques back in the Karazhan days. Misdirect pulls, line of sight pulls, chain trapping, kiting. That was the pinnacle of fun, in my opinion. If my class has all these abilities, I’d like to use them. Ever since then, the game has been stepping further and further away from that playstyle. People call it “dumbing down” and that may be a bit strong, but it is making the game action slower and less complicated in the name of convenience. I think much of this is driven by the LFD system and the necessity of making the game puggable.

    The sheep pull still required an ounce of coordination. When that sheep goes off, those mobs are going to run at the mage, so everyone else had better be ready to do their job. I enjoy that small sense of urgency that the pull brings.

    On another note – this change just seems silly. Imagine a group of evil wizards in Chogall’s employ standing around in the Bastion of Twilight talking about the latest issue of Night Elf Monthly. One of them turns into a sheep. Another one freezes in a giant block of ice. The rest of them… go about their conversation? Its ridiculous. You can argue about how many aspects of the game are ridiculous, but for whatever reason that one really pushes my buttons.

  13. Gnomeaggedon says:

    I’m not going to QQ, and it really does sound that it will be better for a tank… but…

    I do miss the NEED to CC, still even with it’s brief and occasional return in Cataclysm.

    And casting sheep, or counterspell came with threat, It was my job to cc/counterspell and get to the tank (not run like a blood elf to the healer).

    I’m loving the caster mobs in Deadmines, with the anti-CC shields, that turn what appears to be a simple pull into a chain nightmare.

    Of course, once you know the trick, spellsteal the shield and CC away, it becomes a simple, mindless fight… all you need is two keys, and the smarts to chain two utility spells (OMG, utility.. I thought Mages only had dps spells.. and food… and portals)

    At the end of the day, it wont matter too much… I did hate putting away my sheep macro for a whole expansion, and now not bothering with it, just plain old sheep is good enough, and I wonder how I will feel when I am facing a pack of livestock rather than angry mobs… but whatever.

    I wonder if it is all about making the tanks life easier… or whether it is about other party members too. I know on recent runs on my DK, if I wasn’t deathgripping casters to the tank, they would have been merrily doing their own thing. Maybe the assumption is that all classes need it a bit easier, cc shouldn’t be required, part time tanks should be encouraged etc.

    Sounds like soon I will be able to sheep-solo an instance.. sheep one mob, move past it, sheep the next, move past it etc…

  14. Tsudrats says:

    :) a most enjoyable read bbb :). You reminded me of making penguins on the weekend with my mage. ‘Why on earth are you bothering to cc?????’ came the question …
    ‘Well … I have the spell it must be there for a reason’ I reply … followed by ‘If I don’t use it, it will shrivel and Bliz will cut it off’

    Sheeping is fun :)

  15. Sarabian says:

    Can I upvote this times 17 quintillion?

  16. Shintar says:

    Typical that this post appears five minutes after I’ve moaned about nobody talking about the CC changes… :)

    I’m overall okay with this change because I know what it can be like in the dungeon finder with people who don’t want to or don’t know how to CC.

    But… I still don’t really like it. From an immersion point of view it’s just stupid that mobs will ignore the guy to the left turning into a sheep and the guy to the right turning into a block of ice. I know WoW mobs have always been a bit dense in order to make them easier to handle (and because good AI is hard to program, I guess), but this is just taking it to whole new levels of ridiculousness.

    Also, I don’t like Blizzard acting as if talking to your party members is some kind of terrible chore that needs to be eliminated (a logistical challenge, as Zarhym calls it), and communicating with your party is all there really is to organising CC. “Rogue sap the star please, then the hunter traps the blue, mage sheep the moon when it comes running and the tank picks up the rest.” Not that hard, is it? But no, Blizz wants everyone to be completely independent so there’s no need to talk. Basically, after 4.2 I’ll be able to run up to the next pull, CC a random mob and then twiddle my thumbs to see what the rest of the party does. No talking necessary. In a way it does make sense in a game where random groups already talk so little, but I still find it sad.

    • Donnaterassi says:

      But no, Blizz wants everyone to be completely independent so there’s no need to talk.

      Perhaps it is just Blizzard’s ham-handed way of addressing the language barrier.
      People get bent out of shape when a “non-english speaking player” joins the group.

  17. Sakaki says:

    Really I have one complaint about this change that I think is legitimate.

    I’m going to miss the unity and teamwork that went into CC in my raids. Put up the marks, everyone knows theirs by now, maybe remind the new person. Everyone gets into position, one person starts casting, the rest follow. They run away, the tank pics up what is left. It’s fun to watch, actually fun to heal with they mess up too. So now they shouldn’t mess up ever again, roll lifebloom play Pokemon whee.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      I do agree with you that for players that work well together, the dance of battle is a wonderful feeling. I think you won’t miss it quite as much as you think. This will let Blizzard move forward to challenge groups with mobs that respond to attempts to cc them in interesting ways.

      • Sim says:

        This. The “dance of the battle”. I don’t object to the change, it’ll certainly help pugs out, as well as any new tanks that have come up with Call to Arms. That said, my background is that of a BC-era bear tank – when you *couldn’t afford* to let anyone but you get beat on, ever. Once inital threat is established on trash it is frequently just a holding pattern waiting for the DPS to finish. As a tank, my job is/was done in the first 5-10 seconds. 5-10 seconds that make or break the pull. This is a good change, but gosh if I won’t pine a touch nostaglic for the dance.

  18. Faeldray says:

    I do quite like this change to CC, because as a hunter, it can be a bit of a pain to have a stationary CC. I’ve become the one to start each pull, which takes some prep time because first I go into Camouflage and then prepare my trap launcher and freezing trap. If the pug mage suddenly decides to CC first, well…the pull usually goes to hell. The tank’s first instinct is of course to get all the mobs under control, which can lead to accidentally breaking CC, and then it turns into a big mess. With patch 4.2, I won’t even have to be the first one to CC which will be a nice change of pace.

    And since everyone else is going out on a tangent about liking CC, I’m going to say this: I think that CC is boring. Sure it was a novel idea at the beginning of Cata, because it changed things up. But after going through pull after pull, dungeon after dungeon, doing exactly the same thing over and over…the novelty has worn off. I went through normal Cata dungeons CCing because at the time none of us had the gear to faceroll it. Then I did the exact same thing with heroics. Maybe everyone else loves it but I am perfectly sick of it. I never got burnt out on Wrath heroics because there was always the challenge of pulling more and faster. I had enjoyed the quick pace of those dungeons, where the scenery changed every 20 minutes. THAT was a challenge for me. Now I only begrudgingly go into Cata heroics and every pull it’s the same damn thing. Mark, CC, dps one down at a time. Move onto the next group. Rinse and repeat. ugh. And heaven forbid you pull more than one group, because you will be screwed.

  19. paperclip says:

    I’m curious what side effects might arise from this change. Presumably CC’ing will no longer put you into combat since it doesn’t draw the attention of the mob. So with the change, you can combine CC’ing and out-of-combat abilities like stealth or mounting in ways you couldn’t before.

  20. Usually when Blizz makes these huge changes, it’s for the better of the community as a whole.

    To be honest, as a hardcore raider, often times the old-fashioned way how these CC’s worked, just caused more frustration than was necessary.

  21. Elynea says:

    I’ve rather been of two minds on this one, leaving me in that nebulous grey area of “I’ll wait to see how it works live, if it gets there”. On the one hand, it is good (in my eyes) for the simple relief that squishy sheeping mage will feel (or that mind controlling priest, etc) when saddled with that random tank who hasn’t quite tuned in to the whole “situational awareness = if it breaks, I might need to grab it” thought process (and don’t tell me they don’t exist, I’ve died to the “best” of them). On the other…having that slice of urgency helped people to acquire, or at least, acknowledge, skills they weren’t so much in command of. Tanks with a range of goodies meant to draw attention back to themselves for the few seconds it would take to cement their threat level on the mob…dps cooldowns to remove threat for a short while, so the tank could get it back. It’s sadly rare to see any of this baseline stuff taking place in random pugs. I rarely do them anymore, choosing instead to run with guildies where the tank isn’t charging into the next group before the last one is down or the healer has mana, again, because HIS gearscore and abilities are good enough to handle that and it isn’t like he’s there to think about the rest of his team…he just wants the shiny, or the points, and he has to get it and get off because he’s only doing this as dinner is being put on the table/work is slow/his hot date is in five minutes, etc. Don’t think I have anything against tanks…I love them…and the very same thing could be said of rushing-to-pull-before-the tank-they-think-is-too-slow-dps (I like to call those “dipsh*ts”…it fits the letters to a tee when I’m frustrated), or healers (one memorable random had our holy priest pulling for EVERY PULL IN THE INSTANCE while whining that the tank was too slow, then bitching when he couldn’t get all the mobs off of her).

    Blizzard ensures there will still be wipes, and challenges. Yes, the whole two guards talking and suddenly one is sheeped and the other continues his conversation like his brain refuses to process that reality really does grind my gears, a bit. But, until it makes it off the PTR, let them list as they will…and if it does go live, we’ll see then if it stays live. Until that point…I’m not going to stress over it.

  22. Catal says:

    “The outraged elitist asshats sound pretty pathetic.”

    I don’t like the idea of the cc change. Does this make me an elitist asshat? Sorry, I just find this attitude that anyone who dislikes x change is clearly in the wrong a little offensive. Having fun isn’t wrong. Objecting to changes in things I find fun is also not-wrong.

    I’m sorry. I’m a tank. I enjoy the pull. I don’t let my squishy friends get eaten. Once the mobs are to you, it comes down to the least interesting part of the job: standing in place and punching your threat buttons ’til they’re dead. Yes, sometimes it gets more complicated than that. Sometimes someone pulls something off you or walks into a pat or something. But 99% of the time, the pull is the interesting part. *used to be the interesting part. Yes, I do cc even with pugs. I have occasionally had a pug I just couldn’t get to work with me well enough to make traditional cc work… but that’s what the game is about, right? The players and how different/interesting they are? Making you learn to work together with lots of different kinds of people?

    No, it’s not the end of the world or even the end of the game. But it is a change. And all the little changes do pile up. Some of them are good, some of them are bad, but all of them are different and at the end, they’re going to be a million miles from the game I got addicted to. I’ve had a lot of fun playing the game. Will they ever make it different enough I can’t stand to play anymore? We’ll just have to see, won’t we?

    • bigbearbutt says:

      “I don’t like the idea of the cc change. Does this make me an elitist asshat? Sorry, I just find this attitude that anyone who dislikes x change is clearly in the wrong a little offensive. Having fun isn’t wrong. Objecting to changes in things I find fun is also not-wrong.”

      You can write that, and yet just by reading it I know that you did not bother to follow that link to see what comments, and what attitude, I was referring to. If you want to take the hurt on yourself and decide YOU are who I was talking about, than I’m going to assume you are saying that you followed the link, you read the comments, and that IS what you would say and how you would say it. And thus, yes, you are.

  23. Dorgol says:

    I’ll chime in and agree with those that will miss the “dance”.

    There is a 1/2 second period in each pull: The Hunter has launched his Trap. The Mage is casting Polymorph. The group knows that in that 1/2 a second everything can go smooth as silk or straight to hell.

    I love that moment.

    On the other hand, the is another 1/2 second. I’ve marked for Sap, Sheep, and whatever. And the Mage seeing a Moon, goes ahead and Polymorphs. Only the Trap wasn’t down, or the Sap wasn’t in place. And that 1/2 a second is when the group realizes that everything went straight to hell because someone couldn’t wait 5 seconds.

    I hate that moment.

    The CC change in 4.2 removes the possibility for BOTH moments. Whether this is better or not – only time will tell.

    I am looking forward to the RP aspect of this change, though. A brief (hopefully) story:

    I had a Stonecore group a few months back. We were moving through the trash before Ozruk. You know, the room where you can’t move too far left or right because there are packs of mobs AND there are wandering patrols that will pull those groups AND there are these large don’t-get-more-than-one-of-these Ogres? Yeah, that part. So we’re doing well: marking, CC, killing. No problems.

    We get to the last group, CC is applied, and we are killing the one or two mobs I have on me. Then, as we are watching, one of the Ogres walks over to the group we had just applied CC to. At first I was afraid the Ogre would aggro, but instead he literally sits down (as part of his scripted movement) and “has a conversation” with the Sheep and Ice Cube.

    Everyone in our group does a “lol” with a few “dumbest Ogres ever” comments. We were all smiling.

    We clear up the last two mobs, and just before we move forward the same Ogre wanders back over – and sits down and “has a conversation” with no one. All the mobs in that group were dead.

    One of our group members pipes up with a “Where’d everyone go?”. Maybe you had to be there, but it was absolutely hilarious. With 4.2 this situation will be the standard.

    • Dorgol says:

      And I’m going to reply to myself for a new thought…

      If you have done Zul’aman, you know that the trash in there is intense. ESPECIALLY if you are going for a timed run. Specifically I’m talking about the trash leading to the Bear boss. That trash doesn’t wait for you to setup marks, apply CC, and then kill them off one by one. Instead, they charge at you as soon as someone gets close enough and it doesn’t matter if you are in stealth or Camo or whatever. Oh, and “close enough” is something like 60 yards out.

      This trash is exciting even when you aren’t using CC. That 1/2 a second I mentioned before? That lasts a good 4-5 seconds as these mobs are charging into your group and the tank has to control them all without breaking any assigned CC.

      This trash makes players think on their toes.

      In a bad group they will die 50% of the time.

      In an average group the survival of the team lies 100% on the shoulders of the Tank and Healer. The tank will have 3-4 mobs beating on him, so he has to use whatever survivability CDs he can while hoping his healer can keep up with the incoming damage.

      In a good group, though, we will see things like: Hunters Distracting Shot into an Ice Trap. Warlocks Death Coil followed by Fear. Mages Ring of Frost controlling the entire group. Ret Paladins taunting out of the group followed by Repent.

      In other words – ZA trash is a much better skill check than the old style “mark and burn”.

      So I wonder if Blizzard will, after 4.2, make more trash like ZA? Will we see more adds during trash? Will we see mobs activating from LONG distances (like ZA)? Will we see linked mobs from opposite sides of the room (like the BRD example)?

      Who knows but, after thinking it through, I’m going to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt. Again.

      • Tsudrats says:

        :) I’m also sure in those somewhat ordinary groups we’ve all gone /facepalm over there will still be the opportunity for us all to feel our breath catch in our throats as someone has managed somehow to make everything go pear shaped :). I agree … in a good group, people will still use the breadth of their characters capabilities and in ordinary to bad ones people still wont use cc (lets face it they probably didn’t use it or use it well before the change anyway) or will use it badly.

  24. Nils says:

    I think Blizzard should implement a ‘kill mob now’ button. Don’t listen to the elitist asshats. They just don’t get that killing mobs is fun. They want you to work for it (it’s a game for god’s sake!).

  25. Herr Drache says:

    […] let’s have all of you who read my blog be uber. Why the hell not.

    But we already are, because we read your blog! ;)

    Can’t believe nobody else pointed that out yet…

  26. Kaleesh says:

    My Bob Dylan senses are tingling!

  27. Inno says:

    I’m happy about the cc changes. I’m also happy to be getting a non melee cc buff to my blind against mobs. Still 8 seconds to players but up to one minute on mobs.

  28. […] The great thing is it doesn’t matter if I’m a bit keen with my crowd control. If I sheep a mob early it means I don’t have to slam ice block to survive and see who ends up with aggro (probably the healer). It makes the tank’s job less stressful and encourages the use of crowd control over the more typical pull-everything approach, as it becomes much less riskier to do. This is a Good Thing. […]

  29. pallalore says:

    BBB,

    I haven’t had time to read all the responses so I hope I don’t repeat something that someone has said.
    I know how important it is to you to show off the skills you’ve learned and perfected over time practicing. Like chain trapping. Its dedication to your craft that would have someone take you with them in a group rather than someone who just says “faceroll”. as a hunter, your main gauge of effectiveness is your dps, but in business terms you bring a lot of added value such as prior raid experience, tank experience, chain trapping, healing experience, etc.

    Now, as a tank, I can tell you that one of my favorite techniques is making sure dose and healer faces don’t get eaten when cc’ing. My job becomes very boring if trash just becomes “stand here and provide as much threat as you can” just as yours would “stand here and just pew pew as much as you can”. Its taking a well rounded skill set and chopping some off.

    I hope that gibes you a little more perspective.

  30. Blackbear says:

    I have to agree with you on this BBB. As a tank, healer and sometimes hunter, I was really glad to see this change coming and I honestly can’t figure out why some folks are bothered by it. I’ve read that post you linked and I think Zarhym does a good job explaining why this change is coming. And I don’t really think that the argument “this is going to make instances faceroll” is valid because: people still have to manage their threat, be aware of where they stand, avoid breaking CC, etc. I don’t really think that this is a bad thing. The heroic instances are still very challenging and this new mechanic may make accidental CC pulls less frequent, but the fights themselves haven’t lost any challenge. I would be interested in learning if this new mechanic would actually encourage players to use CC. I’m not so sure about that. Of course, this is based on the horrible pugging experiences I’ve had – which is not to say that all pugs are bad, they’re not. But, I suppose we’ll soon see!

    :D

    • bigbearbutt says:

      In other news… when are you going to resume writing on your blog? You’ve got a solid writing style, you should get back on it…

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