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	<title>Comments on: Ask the Devs; Irritation Factor Nine</title>
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	<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/</link>
	<description>Feral Druids in World of Warcraft</description>
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		<title>By: Belile</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56412</link>
		<dc:creator>Belile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I love my bear. I do. Despite a few shortcomings, because really, every tank has them. I&#039;ve raided with my 80 Warrior and 80 DK in Wrath and my Bear in Wrath and Cata. My new Pally tank just hit 80. So I know all the tanks reasonably well, and I love them all, so please don&#039;t think I&#039;m hating on the others. I just love my bear. :-) Though sometimes I wonder if its rational. 

Below are a few issues I still see bears having that I would like to see addressed. Its not that I expect all my wishes to be granted but rather that there are some inequities that I don&#039;t see as interesting enough to justify the lack of normalization. I&#039;m OK with certain stuff being lacking in one, or slightly OP in another tank as that adds flavor. When one tank is getting a crappy ability or clunky behavior for no good reason, I scratch my head. Here are some oddities with bears, some comparrisons, and a suggestion or two (with rationalization) of how it could be remedied.

1) How attack speed debuffs are spread: DK: with blood plague (via pestilence, outbreak, w/e). War: Thunderclap (no talent required), Pally: Hammer of the Righteous. Bear: Mangle/Maul. The problem: We can spread to 2 most of the time (3 while zerking), and more eventually. Each of the others can get to ALL targets in 1 to 2 clicks. Keeping that debuff up on an add pack is trivial for all except us. Why is it a problem: tanking add packs we seem to take a bit more dmg than the others. Our armor helps a goodly amount here, but how our mastery works seems to hurt a little. 

Suggestion: I don&#039;t think it would be OP to apply Infected Wounds on all targets of a Thrash, at least not from the attack speed debuff side. The fact that it snares as well....arguably would make this OP. I would question whether it was more OP than Avenger Shield+Hammer of the Righteous though. I wouldn&#039;t mind if they split the snare and the attack speed debuff apart if they had to.


2) So much of the Utility that people site about bears and hold over our heads on why we shouldn&#039;t get X-Y-Z is stuff that requires us to shift out of bear form into caster form. I believe its horribly unfair to hold this stuff against us when we pay the huge penalties if we use them. 
a) we lose all vengeance stacks
b) We lose all rage
c) we can&#039;t do this while tanking (which should be most of the time) since we lose all our armor and a lot of our life, and dodge, and....you get the picture. 
Basically, if you do this while tanking something, you&#039;re dumb. A good bear can sneak in a brez, or the wet noodle that is Innervate on a tank swap, or when any adds they are tanking die, or some such. Its tough though. And I&#039;m man enough to admit I&#039;ve caused a wipe once or twice by misjudging the amount of time I thought I could spend in caster form. 

Suggestion: would it really be that OP if we could innervate from Bear? It doesn&#039;t do much anyhow!!! Would it really be OP if we could brez while in bear? I don&#039;t think so. Let us Innervate and B-rez in bear form. Tranq would be pushing it though. Hey, while we&#039;re at it, could I get Thorns while in bear? Just so I don&#039;t have to pop out, cast, and go bear again. (I have that macro&#039;d. Nice for a little extra initial aggro on packs. Especially when you switch to caster gear in between. Mwahahaha)
3) Feral Charge using rage instead of giving: seriously....this is legacy crap that needs to go.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love my bear. I do. Despite a few shortcomings, because really, every tank has them. I&#8217;ve raided with my 80 Warrior and 80 DK in Wrath and my Bear in Wrath and Cata. My new Pally tank just hit 80. So I know all the tanks reasonably well, and I love them all, so please don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m hating on the others. I just love my bear. :-) Though sometimes I wonder if its rational. </p>
<p>Below are a few issues I still see bears having that I would like to see addressed. Its not that I expect all my wishes to be granted but rather that there are some inequities that I don&#8217;t see as interesting enough to justify the lack of normalization. I&#8217;m OK with certain stuff being lacking in one, or slightly OP in another tank as that adds flavor. When one tank is getting a crappy ability or clunky behavior for no good reason, I scratch my head. Here are some oddities with bears, some comparrisons, and a suggestion or two (with rationalization) of how it could be remedied.</p>
<p>1) How attack speed debuffs are spread: DK: with blood plague (via pestilence, outbreak, w/e). War: Thunderclap (no talent required), Pally: Hammer of the Righteous. Bear: Mangle/Maul. The problem: We can spread to 2 most of the time (3 while zerking), and more eventually. Each of the others can get to ALL targets in 1 to 2 clicks. Keeping that debuff up on an add pack is trivial for all except us. Why is it a problem: tanking add packs we seem to take a bit more dmg than the others. Our armor helps a goodly amount here, but how our mastery works seems to hurt a little. </p>
<p>Suggestion: I don&#8217;t think it would be OP to apply Infected Wounds on all targets of a Thrash, at least not from the attack speed debuff side. The fact that it snares as well&#8230;.arguably would make this OP. I would question whether it was more OP than Avenger Shield+Hammer of the Righteous though. I wouldn&#8217;t mind if they split the snare and the attack speed debuff apart if they had to.</p>
<p>2) So much of the Utility that people site about bears and hold over our heads on why we shouldn&#8217;t get X-Y-Z is stuff that requires us to shift out of bear form into caster form. I believe its horribly unfair to hold this stuff against us when we pay the huge penalties if we use them.<br />
a) we lose all vengeance stacks<br />
b) We lose all rage<br />
c) we can&#8217;t do this while tanking (which should be most of the time) since we lose all our armor and a lot of our life, and dodge, and&#8230;.you get the picture.<br />
Basically, if you do this while tanking something, you&#8217;re dumb. A good bear can sneak in a brez, or the wet noodle that is Innervate on a tank swap, or when any adds they are tanking die, or some such. Its tough though. And I&#8217;m man enough to admit I&#8217;ve caused a wipe once or twice by misjudging the amount of time I thought I could spend in caster form. </p>
<p>Suggestion: would it really be that OP if we could innervate from Bear? It doesn&#8217;t do much anyhow!!! Would it really be OP if we could brez while in bear? I don&#8217;t think so. Let us Innervate and B-rez in bear form. Tranq would be pushing it though. Hey, while we&#8217;re at it, could I get Thorns while in bear? Just so I don&#8217;t have to pop out, cast, and go bear again. (I have that macro&#8217;d. Nice for a little extra initial aggro on packs. Especially when you switch to caster gear in between. Mwahahaha)<br />
3) Feral Charge using rage instead of giving: seriously&#8230;.this is legacy crap that needs to go.</p>
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		<title>By: Tonori</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56315</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56315</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I started Bear-ing my way through instances my mentor tank - who using this blog as his chief reference &amp; I were strongly of the opinion that the Bear was different because of the lack of direct options to ranged casters. We &#039;understood&#039; (assumed) that the HP pool was so large for a bunch of reasons &amp; that this was probably the main one. It means you could spend more time with the mob to ensure aggro lock then go the caster. It meant that shammies, other druids &amp; melee... &amp; the occasional mage, &#039;lock &amp; hunter pet kept their eyes open &amp; took care of that problem. Bear tanks made the party smarter. Bear tanks made the party use teamwork. Bear tanks meant that they were safe to do so. 

It seemed so obvious...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I started Bear-ing my way through instances my mentor tank &#8211; who using this blog as his chief reference &amp; I were strongly of the opinion that the Bear was different because of the lack of direct options to ranged casters. We &#8216;understood&#8217; (assumed) that the HP pool was so large for a bunch of reasons &amp; that this was probably the main one. It means you could spend more time with the mob to ensure aggro lock then go the caster. It meant that shammies, other druids &amp; melee&#8230; &amp; the occasional mage, &#8216;lock &amp; hunter pet kept their eyes open &amp; took care of that problem. Bear tanks made the party smarter. Bear tanks made the party use teamwork. Bear tanks meant that they were safe to do so. </p>
<p>It seemed so obvious&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Khettien</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56303</link>
		<dc:creator>Khettien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 00:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I remember a WoW (maybe GC?) Dev stating, way back in the day, that the Vanilla and BC design for Feral explicitly was not to have a (standard) spell interrupt. I don&#039;t remember the reasoning, as it&#039;s been a long time since then.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember a WoW (maybe GC?) Dev stating, way back in the day, that the Vanilla and BC design for Feral explicitly was not to have a (standard) spell interrupt. I don&#8217;t remember the reasoning, as it&#8217;s been a long time since then.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Dorgol</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56298</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorgol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 21:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56298</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My only complaint with Druid tanking vs other tanks is the ranged interrupt. I don&#039;t need a spell reflect or dark simulcrum or anti-magic shell. What I need is a way to interrupt the &quot;big bad&quot; without dragging all the other mobs with me. Moving them causes the melee to get annoyed and it causes me to have to do the little dance trying to get everyone in front of me again.

Otherwise, I&#039;d say Bears are in the best shape they&#039;ve ever been.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My only complaint with Druid tanking vs other tanks is the ranged interrupt. I don&#8217;t need a spell reflect or dark simulcrum or anti-magic shell. What I need is a way to interrupt the &#8220;big bad&#8221; without dragging all the other mobs with me. Moving them causes the melee to get annoyed and it causes me to have to do the little dance trying to get everyone in front of me again.</p>
<p>Otherwise, I&#8217;d say Bears are in the best shape they&#8217;ve ever been.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaleesh</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56291</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaleesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mouse clickers can hotkey it to the middle wheel. Thanks Suxxy!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mouse clickers can hotkey it to the middle wheel. Thanks Suxxy!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bigbearbutt</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56286</link>
		<dc:creator>bigbearbutt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Have I told you... lately.... that I love you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have I told you&#8230; lately&#8230;. that I love you.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dysheki</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56285</link>
		<dc:creator>Dysheki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pretty sure they&#039;ve just given these questions to a PR intern to answer.

lol

SPIN THE WEB]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty sure they&#8217;ve just given these questions to a PR intern to answer.</p>
<p>lol</p>
<p>SPIN THE WEB</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Lazaros of Llane</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56284</link>
		<dc:creator>Lazaros of Llane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is what I need right here. This is the encouragement I need to get back into bear (aside from using it to farm old content the easy way). You&#039;re about to make my guild a happy bunch by adding a second tank to the lineup.

Cheers!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is what I need right here. This is the encouragement I need to get back into bear (aside from using it to farm old content the easy way). You&#8217;re about to make my guild a happy bunch by adding a second tank to the lineup.</p>
<p>Cheers!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Lazaros of Llane</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56283</link>
		<dc:creator>Lazaros of Llane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56283</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Charge costing Rage is a bad legacy of pre-4.0 when other specs could hybrid up to Feral Charge in a funky PvP spec to gain more utility. Now that that has been solved, it&#039;s past time to remedy that situation, just like they did with Enrage.

Playing the other tanks lately in 5&#039;s (DK at 85, Pally at 84, 20&#039;s Warrior), I see so much in terms of group control, not just &quot;gather &#039;em up and survive.&quot; Bears do decently, but seem to have a smaller toolkit. (Though I could very well be wrong here.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charge costing Rage is a bad legacy of pre-4.0 when other specs could hybrid up to Feral Charge in a funky PvP spec to gain more utility. Now that that has been solved, it&#8217;s past time to remedy that situation, just like they did with Enrage.</p>
<p>Playing the other tanks lately in 5&#8242;s (DK at 85, Pally at 84, 20&#8242;s Warrior), I see so much in terms of group control, not just &#8220;gather &#8216;em up and survive.&#8221; Bears do decently, but seem to have a smaller toolkit. (Though I could very well be wrong here.)</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://thebigbearbutt.com/2011/06/08/ask-the-devs-irritation-factor-nine/comment-page-1/#comment-56282</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thebigbearbutt.com/?p=4223#comment-56282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Even though the content of this post doesn&#039;t apply to my main play experience (dwarf rogue FTW!) I have to say that the prose you used, especially in the first few paragraphs, was very enjoyable and was fun to read.  This I why I like reading the stuff that you put together.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even though the content of this post doesn&#8217;t apply to my main play experience (dwarf rogue FTW!) I have to say that the prose you used, especially in the first few paragraphs, was very enjoyable and was fun to read.  This I why I like reading the stuff that you put together.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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