Topic of the day; Looking For Raid and new game opportunities.

The one area where I think LFR has succeeded the most is in opening up the world of large group raiding to those of us that could never be part of an organized raid group before.

It goes beyond taking raids and making them accessible to people.

I see a lot of discussion, mostly from people who were already raiders, about how the existence of LFR has affected their gameplay, dumbed it down, cheapened it, how it’s not really raiding.

Well, I say “get over yourself” to that, but let’s not forget the effect the LFR has on the rest of us.

How many people out there aren’t in raiding guilds? How many are in guilds with raid teams, but have never been part of the raid groups?

There are still a lot of friends and family guilds in this game, guilds that may not even have ten or more players. Guilds that would like to raid but suffer with too few numbers and too high standards, groups of people that insist on playing with friends and if they don’t have enough to form a raid without inviting strangers or potential asshats into their social atmosphere, just don’t?

How many people out there playing World of Warcraft have never had the opportunity to see what a big raid is like live?

Let’s take a step further back.

How many people out there have never taken part in a large group raid before, because they were afraid of screwing up in front of 9 or 24 other people while trying to get their UI adjusted, addons lined up, and marks/focus/assist/roles/assignments all figured out on the fly while everyone else in the raid is popping green for the ready check on the screen?

It’s not about being able to play your class, understanding your abilities or having addons enabled. You can know how to play your character extremely well in five person groups, and you can have Deadly Boss Mods and Omen and other raiding addons, but there is a lot to setting up a raid UI, or at least understanding what components go into a raid UI and which you need, what they do, and whether you can safely ignore them.

How often in the normal course of the game do you have to know what an assist is? Do you even know what the interface menu options for turning on “attack on assist” mean? What about role settings, and assignments, and knowing who is supposed to heal what, and how to organize it right?

What are all those extra tank and off-tank blocks in VuhDo for, and when should I use them? Who is my assist target, and what the hell does that really mean? Who do I focus on, or do I even focus on anyone for what we’re about to do? Am I shackling anything? Will I need tranq shot on my bar, and how will I know when to use it, or will I be told? 

If you are invited to a real raid for the very first time, especially with people whose opinions you value, what do you do if you are afraid you’ll end up screwing up, wiping the raid, and disappointing everyone when you’re trying to figure all this crap out?

Looking For Raid has done more than just open things up. It’s allowed people who could never get their schedule lined up to join a raid team before an opportunity to go in and do a raid, a real 25 person raid, and experience what it is like.

You can say whatever you want about EZ modes, getting carried, streamlined content, and how LFR isn’t a ‘real’ raid.

LFR has adds, bosses, various mechanics, 25 people, all the traditional roles, and lots of flashing lights and raid warnings and DBM updates and threat indicators and all that stuff going on. It is a raid in everything except the crushing likelihood of failure if you screw up just once with your timing on one thing.

Or, as Shadowson likes to say when someone starts a “This LFR group sucks so bad on this boss” story;

“But did the boss get killed?”

Why, yes, yes it did. No matter how sucky the group was, yes, eventually we get the boss down anyway.

In LFR you will not get guidance in how to play your class, you will not get kindly advice unless something really strange happens, and you WILL see players at their worst. But you will also get a chance to test your abilities, become a part of a raid team and see what works and what doesn’t in a live test bed without screwing over your friends.

If nothing else is remembered about LFR in the months to come, I hope this one thing is.

LFR has given everyone an opportunity to gain experience in raiding 25 person content. Everyone. People who never were able to raid before can now do so, and gain valuable experience and confidence that will serve them very well.

In the future, if these people are invited to step into a raid that needs one more person, they can do so knowing that yes, the mechanics will be different, and yes things will require tighter timing and coordination. But they will also know that they have learned to cope and excel in an environment where people don’t communicate shit, do weird ass things, try to fail intentionally, and went on to win anyhow.

LFR. If you can learn to raid without getting pissed at stupid asshats here, if you can keep your head, buckle down and be the person that carries the morons here, then you can raid with an actual GOOD team anywhere.

What I hope to see are people who used to hold raiders in awe stepping into LFR themselves, getting their raid on and seeing what it’s like, finding out how good they really are once they have the opportunity to try and apply themselves, gaining confidence and coming out with their own blogs to share how much fun they’re having and how they made it work.

 When Mists of Pandaria does come out, we are going to see the largest community of seasoned and experienced 25 person raiders WoW has ever witnessed come together, all having had their taste of raiding and wanting more. Here’s hoping Blizzard understands what they’ve set in motion, and bring the raiding goodness.

If they’re smart, they’re getting ready to make good on their promise to bring smaller content updates on a more frequent basis to feed the LFR beast. Clearly, there is a HUGE market for it.

31 Responses to “How Do They Rise Up?”
  1. Coop says:

    I’ve played WOW since vanilla. Never set foot in a raid except for the mini-raids in the PVP zones. I bet a dollar I’m hardly a minority.

    Getting this content out to more users is nothing but good for the game and the players. Anyone who says that people shouldn’t be given easier access to this content needs to realize that this is a game. Achievements within it aren’t really ‘achievements’. Oh, they can be fun, no doubt… but anyone who’s butt-hurt about someone who hasn’t put in the same effort as you getting to see something needs to get over that. Hardcore, casual, good and bad players are all paying the same subscription fees, and the gates to content should be easily surpassed by anyone.

    I don’t think in 4.3 we’ll see the influx in new raiders that we will end up seeing in Mists. Once everything is reset by the new expansion, I think you’re going to see a whole lot more people jumping into LFR. This will be good for the players, and good for the game.

    I’m just happy to see Blizzard do a 180 since the release of Cata, where they tried to increase the barriers to entry with the 5-man content (in comparison to Wrath) to realizing that opening up the content to more people is the right way to do things.

  2. Bloodshrike says:

    All the little angels ascend up to Heaven
    All the little angels ascend up on high
    Which end up?
    Ascend up
    Which end up?
    Ascend up
    All the little angels ascend up on high.

    Ass(or arse)-end up indeed.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      Ah, bliss.

      I always wonder, when I make blog titles that make sense to me but might be obscure as to why, if anyone else ever pays any attention or thinks I’m just stupid. Then you come along and give me a warm feeling of bliss.

      • Bloodshrike says:

        (chuckles)
        I always love seeing you use Terry Pratchett quotes in your posts. I’ve yet to use “pull the other one, its got bells on.”
        My Discworld books get re-read fairly frequently. No new books in the bathroom? No problem, grab Monstrous Regiment off the shelf.

  3. Windsoar says:

    I’d love to make this into a pamphlet and staple it onto people’s foreheads.

  4. Neil says:

    This is so true. On one hand, complaining about the total jerks in LFR is fair. (There are many of them, and they are awful.) On the other hand, complaining about the newbies in LFR means you need to STFU and join a raiding guild, because if knowingly you join a raid whose only qualifier is “click the button to join”, you’re going to end up with some people who aren’t very good at what they do. That’s just how it is: Either accept it or get the hell out.

    I pride myself on playing my toons as well as possible, on knowing all the encounters, on having every single detail of my gaming experience polished to a fine sheen so that I can be a lean mean tanking machine. But, because I have an irregular schedule and would rather play with friends than high-end raiders, I have never (since I joined in 2007) seen the final boss of a raid. In BC we made it through TK and SSC, in Wrath we got up to Sindragosa (never killed Yogg, either :( ), and then it all fell apart.

    LFR lets me kill Deathwing. I can finally say that I made it all the way through. It’s certainly not the same experience as the normal or heroic fight, and I accordingly don’t have the same satisfaction that I might have, but … I get to kill the big baddie. It all finally seems worthwhile.

    I’m so excited for Mists, in which I’ll be able to experience every single raid. It really means a lot to me.

    • Dubhe says:

      “complaining about the newbies in LFR means you need to STFU and join a raiding guild”

      I completely agree with this. Seriously, if you are all that bad ass and everyone sucks so much, why are you in LFR? It’s kind of a stepping stone to the harder versions of the raid. These people should take their bad-assery to where it will be “needed” and “appreciated.”

  5. Mornara says:

    I have mixed feelings about LFR. I like that it lets more people see the content, but there is such asshattery in it that I can hardly make myself participate.

    However, I’ve always found that the best way to set up your UI for raiding is to run Alterac Valley. It’s got enough people and chaos and DBM timers that you can make sure that your raid frames are right. And, while I don’t condone AFKing in a BG, it’s big enough that if you’re only half paying attention while futzing with your UI it’s not going to wreck your team’s chances.

  6. Elfindale says:

    I have not used LFR yet and in fact, I’m not doing very much in WoW at all right now. But even I can see that you are speaking the truth here. One of the reasons I am not a raider is the fear of asking a stupid question or making a mistake in front of my friends during a srs bznz raid. Now that I’ve read this post, I am actually looking forward to giving LFR a try sometime in the future. Thanks BBB.

  7. scheijan says:

    you are making the assumption that smart people will use LFR to fix their UI, learn how and when to use their abilities – fine. this will work for people who either have prior experience in raiding and building an interface and such (or having friends that walk them over the basics), but not for your average joe.
    the characters i’ll picture might be a bit of edge cases, but you’ll get the idea of why i think LFR is only a good tool for people who already know what they are supposed to do.

    sue will queue for LFR the first time, maybe playing with the idea of joining a raiding guild and wanting to see what raiding is like. i would say, there is no worse place to actually do that than LFR. the impression he will get is that nobody in this game can communicate, nobody has to work together, and bosses will just die anyway – she will probably not even do a bad job for his class/role, but still will be scared away from trying to apply to a raiding guild because raiding in LFR is not a bit like what she thought raiding would be. would she have applied for a trial, to a reasonable guild, she probably would have seen a totally different thing, and continued to raid, and enjoyed it.

    jack on the other hand never even heard about addons, doesnt know shit about what to do and got awfully lucky finding LFD groups that were too much in tunnel-vision-grind mode to actually care about him sucking badly (helps that the new hcs arent any challenge to anybody either). it may not even be his fault at all, he might just be one of those hunters in classic that were running around in cloth at lvl 60 because it looked nicer than mail.
    even after completing full lfr t13 he will not know what hes doing, because in LFR you cant learn. nobody is there to guide you. you’ll eventually figure out what to avoid, and what to do, but you dont have to. bosses die anyway, flames are being thrown at each other no matter if bosses die or not, so what the heck. he may even enjoy LFR more than doing those awfully hard LFD hcs.

    your points are pretty much all valid, except that i dont think people get better through LFR. people get better because they want to – and the incentive to actually want it is even smaller now with LFR in place. people want to achieve the best possible results with the lowest possible effort. thats what LFR fulfills.
    LFR doesnt offer an incentive to put effort into the game.
    a few people will come out of LFR and actually join raiding guilds. it will bring fresh people, no question.
    but those people would have come anyway, because they wanted to.

    i’m still joining LFR raids on my alts, and try to help some people figure out what they are supposed to do (in whispers of course, becasue i dont want all the hate myself ;)) – yes, sometimes you get really rude replies, mostly they dont seem to even read what you write, but i already found 1 or 2 people who actually cared enough to at least give me the impression that what i just told them also improved their game.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      I do make some assumptions, it’s true. I do believe that there are plenty of intelligent people playing WoW who have not raided, and yet are skilled in all other respects. I do not think that the first time someone hears about addons is by joining a raid team. I do not think that people who are at all curious about raiding exist without a single preconceived concept of what it will be like. Actually, I would say that, from all the talk in trade chat and in forums and comments and articles that I have seen, the opposite is the case. I think anyone coming into LFR cold would ASSUME that it is going to be a massive suckfest of galactic proportions… but my own experience of LFR isn’t ANYTHING like how I see it characterized.

    • David F says:

      I think that people do learn more about how to raid in LFR. There are a couple encounters in where you will die if you don’t pay enough attention, and that’s quite educational. (Frost waves on Hagara, Shockwave+Twilight Flames on Blackhorn.) I’ve seen wipes to those bosses a few times now, and the second go round a lot less people die. So they *are* learning.

      I had an interesting almost-wipe on Hagara once – lots of DPS died in the frost phases, so we didn’t have quite enough DPS left to beat the enrage. He enrages, kills the tank almost instantly, then before he can kill the next DPS he goes into frost phase. We had plenty of DPS for that, and managed to burn him down the last 2% during Feedback after the phase. While not a stand-up-and-cheer moment, it was pretty cool.

      • scheijan says:

        they are definitely learning the mechanics of the encounters, but they dont get guidance in their role (this is not a LFR problem per se, the same happens in LFD) – see copeys reply to vinetail below.

        the mechanics in LFR are not so punishing as to frustrate people enough to actually find a reason to put more effort into research. i can go into LFR with 0 preparation, and still down all the bosses. and if i’m lucky, i didnt even die, and have learned some of the mechanics.

        another point people mentioned in replies is that LFR discourages might-be raiders from putting in the efforts to apply to a raiding guild, and their schedule, as well as lure those so-so members of raid groups away that were already looking for ways to get by with less effort than others.
        hopefully it brings interested people back in the same way as well – nobody should expect somebody to learn their class and role in LFR alone though.

  8. Copey says:

    You make some fair and very reasonable points, as always. I personally am not a fan of the LFR, though of course I hit it up every week for the chance at free gear. I have geared up substantially through it, and I owe it to my raid team to be as well geared as possible to help progression. But I do it for that reason only. Or did it I should say, since my raid team seems to be down to me and about 2 or 3 other people.

    The reason I dislike LFR is different than others though. In Wrath when 9 guildies and I killed the Lich King for the first time, it was AMAZING. There was screaming in vent, and 10 of us watched the cut scene together. I don’t think when we kill Death Wing that it will be that big of a deal, because we have all done it many, many times before. Because of this (at least I believe this is one of the reasons), I’ve seen my raider’s willingness to raid wane. That waning, mixed with the timely release of Star Wars the Old Republic, mixed with Christmas killed off two raid groups. People just are not showing up any more.

    It’s been hard to recruit people to raid with, because there really isn’t a huge advantage to a raiding guild anymore. People hit the button, join the group, and go raid. Some times you get a fun group, sometimes it’s not as fun. But it’s easy, convenient, and on your schedule. I applaud Blizzard for making a way that a person can just pop in an hour raid when they want, and if they have to leave in the middle it really is no big deal. I applaud how they opened the game up to more people; it’s a smart business decision. It makes me sad however, because I think it’s the end of an era, and the beginning of a new era, and my guild and I fit better in the old one. I don’t think that makes me an epeen douche-hat. I’m not judging others for liking LFR. I am just sad that things are changing, and I don’t like what they are changing into as much as I liked what they used to be.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      I don’t think it makes you one in any way at all, either. I know that if I had a tight raid team that suddenly lost three of four people and one of the reasons given was that raiding in LFR was more convenient for their schedule, I’d be frustrated as heck too.

      What upsets me is that as great as LFR is for so many casual players, I am afraid that it is going to have the consequence of destroying good raid teams because people who look forward to that shared experience will have done exactly what you did, go into LFR not out of desire, but to gear up to better support your team.

  9. Jason says:

    Overall, I think that LFR is a good thing. Opening up the endgame content to more folks will never be bad in my mind. So, that said, there are some issues with it.

    1. This is honestly the big one to me, and that’s the way it bars entry. iLvl is not a good way of doing this, as it’s easy to cheat around it, and even if you can hit the required gear level, this doesn’t mean you can hit the minimum performance bar. While that’s more of an issue for DPS than it is for healers or tanks, it’s still an issue nonetheless.

    2. Gear distribution. It’s so easy to be an ass about this. I’ve lost track of the number of times that gear has gone to the proper class with an improper spec. It’s utterly frustrating watching agility DPS gear go to casters. Equally frustrating is when you’re looking for tank gear, but can’t get into a raid as a tank no matter what you do.

  10. Rauxis says:

    I have one issue with LFR – they should have done gating. I think it was a big mistake to immediately open up the very last raid encounter for LFR, instead they should have started with Firelands. Or maybe even with the earlier raids. And open up Deathwing in 3 or 4 months.

    That way raiding guilds would still be able to get the “yay, we did it” feeling when downing the bosses first time. And the huge number of non raiders would still be able to experience content new to them (you can even hand out normal Fireland gear for what it matters except for legendaries…). And after a couple of month they would get “new” content again.

    With the current implementation you very soon might get the feeling “I’ve beaten the game, there is nothing left to do” (wrong as this statement by itself is)

    • bigbearbutt says:

      Excellent points, Rauxis. I agree.

    • Copey says:

      Wow. I could really support this, I think that’s a great idea. Have LFR run one tier behind the current released tier. Then, final tier of the expansion, give them six months and then release it in LFR. The thing I didn’t mention about LFR, is it’s SUPER AWESOME for alts. You know, the toon you like playing, but are perhaps not a super pro at. I love my hunter. But I’m a middle of the pack hunter skill wise…at best. But I’d be all for running in the LFR on an alt a tier or two behind released content. That would be fun.

    • scheijan says:

      this is a great idea actually, combined with copey’s (let LFR be 1 tier behind).

      though, this would also mean that LFR doesnt have much appeal to current raiders (apart from alts maybe, or the odd thing that wouldnt ever drop for you), and thus reduce the educational part for might-be raiders a bit.
      in that case, LFR might not even require its own difficulty (i mean, at this point, the instances are nerfed down already anyway – maybe slight adjusting), and could just drop the same gear as before – also fulfilling the point of gearing people for the current tier (after all, most people start into the current tier having the gear from normal difficulty of the previous tier).

      • Copey says:

        As I stated in other places in this topic, I do not find the draw back of “reduce the ecucational part” of raiding to be a problem. LFR teaches you virtually nothing about raiding.

        When I learned to raid, back in BC, I learned I needed to become a fisherman. I needed to become a cook. I needed to do so many things in order to have consumables in order to raid. Even Wrath, as easy mode as some claime it was, made me do this. Now, I click LFR, and no feasts, no flasks, no consumables, and no pots are required. If you die, reguardless of your roll (possible exception with a tank, but still unlikley) you will kill the boss. Point, set, match. Click LFR = kill bosses = get lootz. I don’t care if people get purples, what ever. But making it so easy, hurts my recruiting for replacements, and contributed to my two raid groups death.

        Working hard towards a hard achievement used to mean more reward. Now…just wait until the newest heroics come out, run a few times, then kill any boss you want. The masses are pleased, and Blizz sees the rewards. I however, am saddened by it.

  11. Torcthaim says:

    I think LFR also brings another truism to light – one jerk can affect the experience of everyone around them. A 25 man random raid has a much higher chance of having a jerk or two in it than a 5 man group. Jerks tend to be loud and obnoxious….which gets other people to respond, and it snowballs.

  12. mystrinixx says:

    OMFG…I’ve been burnt out for the longest time (haven’t logged in more than a handful of times since last Spring), but (probably because my computer shit the bed), I’ve been having some severe withdrawals the last couple of weeks and am looking forward to getting back in once I get my new computer…and your post actually has me excited. I’ve not really read up on anything that’s been going on in WoW since I’ve been out of it, but for the very reasons you state in your post, I’m really looking forward to trying this out.

    I mean, don’t get me wrong, I know how to play my toon, and I have read up on some of the raids and boss encounters – and hopefully I will have a friend (who has raided pretty extensively) buddy up with me and coach me in Skype along the way so I’m not completely lost, but I know there’s a learning curve – the experience this offers to us non-hardcore players who’ve always been afraid of raiding is something for me to look forward to. Great post!!!

  13. vinetail says:

    When I learned to raid, I was really lucky to have had a class lead who took his responsibilities seriously, back in Vanilla and BC. He was not going to let any of his druids suck. He beat the suck out of us with countless hours of training and practice. I can’t imagine how anyone could walk into a raid, now, without someone to show them what to do and how and when to do it. I sure couldn’t. Hell, I can’t anymore! I’m now a casual player, and only tank when all the regular raiding tanks have managed to die of the plague that evening; I often don’t get any time to prepare, watch fights, learn strategies… nothing. I’m Queen of the Scrub Tanks, and am damn lucky I have a patient guild, who put up with me wiping them once so I can learn the fight. If you don’t have a patient group of friendly raiders, or have a solid foundation in your class, I have no idea how else you’d learn to raid, besides LFR. Or to play your class in a group, besides LFD. It drives me nuts when asshats pull the ‘learn to play, n00b’ card in LFD/LFR, and I’ll say, ‘None of us were born knowing how to kill these bosses. Just chill, or you can find a new tank.’ That usually shuts them up or makes them drop the group. Oh, well!

    • Copey says:

      “I have no idea how else you’d learn to raid, besides LFR”. The LFR, from my perspective does nothing to teach anybody anything. If you que up for LFR early enough in the week, say Tues-Thurs, you will very likely get grouped with somebody somewhat knowledgeable. They will tell you what to attack. Heals and tanks never get any direction at all unless there is a massive screw up and a wipe. There is no “teaching” being done here. Another reason I find LFR sad. The game is just so damn awesome, with so many things to think about. But due to the nature of the LFR itself, you don’t really have to learn a bunch in order to run it every week.

      Let’s say I’m melee dps, that reads no wow-insider, that does no research. I just play to stab stuff, and I like it. Where do I stand when fighting a boss, and why? What should my hit and expertise be? Is standing behind the boss going to help me? I don’t know, that stuff was never that important to me. Just numbers, the higher the better I say, right?

      Well, if your dps is bad in an LFR, and it’s because you are standing in front of the boss with suboptimal stats and can’t finish your combos correctly because they require you being behind him (I’m pretending to know how rogues work now!), you will get no friendly advice. You will get told that you are bad, if anything at all. And you will beat the boss, because there is another guy throwing out 50k dps to balance it all out. You will win, but learn nothing on how to improve. One thing Blizz has always lacked, was an in-game way to learn how to be better.

      I guess this brings up at least one advantage of a raiding guild. When somebody in my raid performs poorly, I take the time to teach them if they will let me. I’ve helped many people maintain a raiding status instead of just benching them, telling them they suck, and replacing them.

      • scheijan says:

        exactly what copey says. i just might not have put it into such good words in my first reply ;)

  14. Tsudrats says:

    For me it comes down to the fact that it is just another way for players to engage with the game. It’s one of the things I give the designers some credit for. They accept that not everyone is going to play the same way or be interested in the same content and they create different mechanisms for people to use. The reality is that while some players may want to be raiders in the purest sense of the role, others would just like to have a look at what the fuss is about. While as Copey points out there is probably not a lot of direct teaching going on there will be learning going on in terms of a whole range of factors. I know for myself, I can read and watch as much as I like but until I get in and see and feel the layout of a place, none of what I’ve read or seen makes any sense at all as I have no context for the information to be linked to.

    For players outside a raiding guild trying to get in to one, they are not going to get in unless they already know what they are doing – look at the application forms you need to fill out and the information required – the ping tests, logs and so on alone where feedback to applicants is along the lines of ‘oh a log off such n such a boss isn’t really sufficient for us’.

    Perhaps it is not for us to presume what anyone will get out of the experience.

  15. Xaeth says:

    Just gonna throw in my two cents,
    I think LFR is an absolutely great idea, that’s not to say it doesn’t have it’s flaws, it has really opened up “raids” to a casual audience and I think that’s brilliant. Anyone who has wanted to give it a shot can now and that really is brilliant, no pressure just jump into a raid try and do your best.
    The thing that people forget is not only is it great for casual players but for full raid teams too, I frequently take new members of my guild or potential raid members into LFR, I can watch their DPS how they respond to the LFR tactics. Sure there is gonna be an amount of either massive sucking or huge douchebaggery but you get to down the bosses get some interim gear and get an idea about the actual bosses. Sure it’s no normal mode, but it’s definitely helpful.
    The flaws, the biggest is that casual/semi-casual players think that now they’ve done LFR, WoW is done it’s finished, I don’t know wether they’ve just never raided before? I can only assume so because any raider knows you aren’t ever finished. What I hate is all the QQ about WoW being boring now they’ve “completed” it, all the people on forums crying that it’s too easy, no it’s not go do normal raids or heroics I personally think this tier has been tuned perfectly. Me and my guild just killed heroic Yor’Sahj the other day, it was an amazing feeling, did the prescence of LFR take away from the kill? No, no it didn’t.
    And guess what? We’re still running LFR, sure maybe half of us are done with it, but my guild is growing in size and I’ll always help out group 2/group 3 members to go into LFR get some gear and get some experience.
    Just to reply to someone saying that it should be a tier behind, it really shouldn’t, it should be the current tier, they staggered it in the first week (maybe they should do that for longer) but the whole point is for people to experience current content, not old content that they probably could do now anyway. If people are having the whole “aww we’ve done it, why bother with real raiding?” then they’ve got the wrong attitude for raiding anyway, it’s about facing challanges and rising up to them, not being satisfied with this half-house version.
    I could agree that the iLvl difference may have to be made bigger, but as far as I can see it has not been detrimental to many people, yes I can sympathise with losing raid members to the more lucrative flexible schedule LFR allows but other than that issue, yes not everybody is learning in LFR, but those people are not going to be joining your raid team anyway (let’s hope not). LFR serves a purpose, and it does it well.

    • Copey says:

      You just beat heroic Yor’Sahj. Grats. Also, you are not in a “normal guild”. My, what I consider a “normal guild” had two 10 man raid groups, fully cleared off of FL normal. At the time, that put us about 30th on the server in rank as far as raiding goes. Not great, but not bad either, considering we are picky about who we invite into the guild.

      My “normal guild” is now having trouble recuiting, because we play in a late night time slot, which was unique to us. But now, people can just log on whenever, and reguardless of preperation, study, or wipes, go and kill bosses that we are trying to kill. It hurts our recruitment. Which does not matter, because Blizz is here to sell a product, and sell it to the masses. Like I said, I comment Blizz for coming up with the ideat. But it seems to be the nail in the coffin for us. The middle of the pack guild.

      Again, grats to you and your high ranking guild for a heroic kill. You have the luxury of recruiting the best raiders because you are on heroics. I do not, because I care about character first, and your schedual has to meet the raid times. gg me I guess.

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