When I started running LFR, I didn’t realise I was going to end up on Let’s Make a Deal.

I still like running Dragon Soul on the LFR, but then I’m one of those kooks that likes running raid content even when there aren’t any carrots to chase after. I like running content for the sake of the experience, and hey, I know there are quite a few others out there that feel the same. Where my kooks at?

Those of us that like going for the fun of it with no loot drops in mind are definitely in the minority.

Is there any question that a huge part of the draw of running any kind of content is to chase after a ‘drop’?

The drop is the carrot, and hasn’t it been amazing to see how quickly the old content got revived once transmog gave us a purpose to chasing those drops beyond base stats?

I’ve even seen people complain, and isn’t this hilarious, complain that the old raids like Black Temple aren’t available for level 85 cross-realm LFR.

Umm, as long as we’re on that topic… add my name to the list of people that would like to queue for BT at level 85.

Yep, that good ol’ carrot works just fine. Getting more life out of old content to help extend the game… well played, Blizzard.

Let’s move past all that.

Dragon Soul LFR, a place where we can go to get some Valor Points, and some decent gear, and kill us some internet dragons.

Anyone else notice that the new standard of loot behavior is to roll on everything whether you need it or not, and then later on when that ONE thing you wanted drops, start offering the shit you won earlier in trade?

If you ever wanted to see an example of the term ‘short-sighted’, there you go.

“Well gee, it sure is hard to get that one drop, so I know! I’ve got a bright idea. I’ll roll on everything, and then when what I drops I’ll have something to offer as trade!” 

Which would be a fine strategy if you were the only one to start doing that. But when it turns out that wasn’t such an original thought, when everyone else sees what you’re doing and figures that is how they have to play to have a fair shot… then instead of having an advantage, now everyone has the exact same chance of being the random winner, no matter how many times the loot has dropped or been won in the past. 

The competition never gets less.  

It seemed so simple when the LFR was released, didn’t it?

You go into LFR those first few weeks, and everyone rolls on everything because they need everything.

Then, NEXT week the folks who won last time won’t roll on those items again so the folks that are left have a better shot. Right?

Sounds reasonable?

If you assume that would remain constant, then over time, most people would have most drops, would be queueing in the hopes of getting just one or two pieces and passing on the rest, and that would mean a greater chance to win SOMETHING for those who are left.

Assumptions… as Samuel L. Jackson once said, they make an ass out of u and umption.

It made sense, until you factor such real life modifiers as folks that have lots of alts that all have to get cycled through, and folks that started new characters and raced them up to level cap (not that I would know anything about that), and other reasons for a continuous influx of characters needing every drop.

Well, still. As the months roll by, we should certainly expect our favorite character that is steadfastly plugging away, week after week, to see the chances improve for a drop, right? Sooner or later Hagara will drop those shoulders, and this time it’ll be YOUR turn.

Hah!

Instead, as people get almost everything they want out of LFR, they now roll on everything they’ve already got or can’t even use just to have trade goods for barter later in the run.

Or maybe those hunters really can use Expertise on their rings. Who am I to judge?

There is only one way for the community to fix this. People have to start rolling ONLY on the item drops that they can actually use, and stop trying to play Let’s Make a Deal.

So, everybody just start doing that, mmmkay?

…..

Yeah, right.

Well, maybe Blizzard will just fix it!

Lolwut?

The existence of dual-spec and multiple roles for one character with different gearing choices makes this a tough design situation.

The LFR loot system had been setup to allow one lucky bastard to win two of the exact same thing off one boss. Blizzard fixed that, not because Blizzard did not want one person to have two of those items, but because Blizzard did not feel one person should get two all at the same time.

Will there ever be a change so that, if your character has won that item once already, they cannot ever win it again?

I can’t possibly imagine it.

What happens if you were a tank, you started building a tank set, and then decided you were switching to DPS? Are you just screwed then, because you chose the tank versions of two LFR pieces before deciding to switch, so tough luck?

It could go either way, but I find it highly unlikely that Blizzard would ever do that.

Blizzard does expect us to fend for ourselves. They do say, if you don’t like the way loot worked out this time, run it again next week. If you don’t like how your fellow players roll on loot, then don’t play with them.

Your choice.

So where does that leave us as the weeks pass, and there is no new content on the horizon to replace Dragon Soul LFR?

There has to come some point where people finally DO have everything they want from LFR, on every character they have, and will stop rolling need on everything. Right?

Of course, if someone doesn’t want anything from LFR anymore… why would they run it again? 

I still like running Dragon Soul LFR, but I’m now running it more to see how people behave and what they’ll do next than anything else.

The last run I did, I ran on my Rogue. I came into the second half of DS LFR on Spine of Deathwing, fought hard and won the Wrath of Unchaining, a great trinket.

I had no less than three whispers from people in the raid offering to trade me a previous loot drop from the raid for the trinket, apparently not realising that I had been a mid-season switch hitter.

I inspected their equipped gear, and of the three, ALL THREE already had the pieces of Tier armor they were offering me equipped.

I turned them down, and do you know, when Deathwing finally fell, not a one of them spoke up at the end of the run to say they had a piece of Tier they couldn’t use, and to offer it up to a roll.

Maybe they just traded their pieces on their own via whispers, maybe not. I know there are a lot of folks out there that would never dream of shananigans like this, and I know one guy that, just out of the blue a few weeks ago, whispered me to say they had won a piece of gear they hadn’t realized they already had, and since I was the second lowest roll, they gave it to me.

The point remains… I don’t see how Blizzard will find a way to regulate loot drop courtesy for us, and does anyone really expect the ‘community’ to act responsibly as a group?

Maybe it will. Who am I to say? And maybe bears will be able to fly, too!

I know for myself, I’ll be expecting Blizzard to add winged bears before I’ll see people say, “I won’t roll, I already have one.”

30 Responses to “Diminishing Returns of LFR”
  1. Xew says:

    Sing it brother! I’ve pretty much stopped LFR as I’ve given my soul to the Dark Side – but our guild is currently 5/8 on 10 man – so most of my LFR gear is gone (and I finally just bought my non-tier gloves as I have the 4 piece and I just couldn’t win the tier token).

    LFR was fantastic for gearing up for the guild runs – and we have a few newer guys that still run it (for a while we were going into LFR as a dedicated block of 10 or 11) Nothing is quite as fun as using the block to win loot for our undergeared guildies – and having the raid bitch and try to vote kick a member. One of our runs was 2 guilds of 10 and 5 unfortunate bastards… I don’t participate in the mean-spirited shenanigans, but I’m a bad man and laugh in Skype as other guildies target low DPS victims and try to vote them out.

    We also learned pretty quickly that Tuesday is quality and Sunday/Monday are the dregs. Dregs are funny, as long as you know you’re going in to a whine fest of bad deeps, bad heals, and horribad tanks. If you haven’t tried them yet, BBB, since you’re running for S&G any way, THAT’s where you’ll meet some epic bad examples of human decency at it’s most invisible.

    Honestly, I hope Blizz doesn’t mess with the dynamic. On top of just about everything Blizz touches to ‘make better’ going to shit, it’s becoming a classic example of internet anonymity evolving naturally. I agree – quite fun to watch… in moderation.

    Back to my regularly scheduled bout of Force Lightning!

    Xew

  2. Klepsacovic says:

    Hey, now there’s a crazy idea! What if you… couldn’t roll if you already have one? I don’t think any Blizzard-side loot system will ever end the debates over loot distribution, but small steps here and there can help. We’ve gotten some of the really obvious ones already, such as not allowing need rolls on non-class tier pieces or the wrong armor type. Some sort of “absolutely better than” filter could be added, so that if you have an item for the slot which has at least the same stats, then you cannot roll on it; with rings requiring two “absolutely better than” items. Trinkets would effectively be ignored because they have such widely varying bonuses and effects.

  3. SirFWALGMan says:

    Dude, *some* people are such jerks (not all) in the game that I would not be surprised if they rolled so they could sell it for 18g or whatever you get.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      I do know one person in my guild that said they roll on everything they can, all the time, it’s worth gold towards repairs.

      Yeah, I know.

    • Nathanyel says:

      I met a guy from a previous guild while running Apothecary Trio, and like so many other people, he needed on the neck despite having a 403 one. When I confronted him about it, he said he needed ring enchants…

      I don’t know what’s worse, enchanters needing on items only to disenchant them, or non-enchanters needing on an item that no one really wanted and that could’ve been disenchanted via the system, because 8G in the hand is better than a possible ~100G in a roll against 4 other people – or just to deny them the chance on that money.

  4. Russ says:

    It didn’t take me too long to learn that the Raid Finder was not going to help much with my efforts to gear my (non-normalmode-raiding) hunter. At this point, ten or so weeks into the patch, he has gotten a total of two pieces from RF: a tier chest and the stacking Agility trinket. With the crafted bracers, T12 gear, the 384 Ragnaros bow, some dungeon finder fill-ins, and the BoE belt, he sits at ilvl 382, and I don’t expect that will change much.

    At this point, I’m sitting on a nice chunk of VP and CP that I intend on eventually using to buy the Conquest Point Bow. The big hope that I had was to win the RF weapons at some point, although that hope has effectively been squashed… and yet, I know that I’m going to win the bow from Deathwing right after I finally break down and buy the PvP one – that’s the way it goes, right? :P

    Now, I run the Raid Finder for the experience. It’s different from a heroic. It’s different from a battleground. I like seeing how the story ends with my own eyes. I’m pretty much a typical player in that I really really want the loot – in particular, the weapons and the second tier piece – but I can compete very well dps-wise (against ppl with more LFR/better raid gear) and do the dance properly without it, so I’m becoming resigned to the fact that I don’t need the gear upgrades to make RF worth my while, for now.

    I agree with you – I don’t know that Blizzard can refine the loot system to change or block the practices of people who sort of build up their trade-equity by needing un-needed pieces. I do think that the gear from RF is too strong relative to T12 and T13 normal raid gear, and the weapons are definitely overpowered in that regard, particularly when compared to PvP gear. So I don’t know what the solution is, or if there is one.

    Ultimately, the chances of winning a piece you need are still virtually the same from week to week: very slim. Between all of the alts and all of the people rolling for duplicates, I’ve decided to take what I can from the RF experience: valor points and – for the most part – fun.

    /end long-winded reply

  5. Askevar says:

    I had a priest do this to my pally the other day… I had won the tier chestpiece and they wanted to trade me the tier helm they couldn’t use.

    I heard all kinds of stuff in that exchange.

    “The helm is a bigger upgrade for you”
    “It’s just going to vendor… I already have my offset”
    “But it’s just going to vendor, if you give me the chest we both get something.”
    “I’m seriously just going to vendor it”.

    I told them to enjoy their gold. And I had just gotten the VP for the nontier helm… which had better stats. Plus the tier chest… much better combo. Strangely… they were already wearing the RF tier chestpiece… but eh, maybe they wanted offspec chestpiece?

    I have to say I was laughing by the end of it… they couldn’t accept my polite decline and kept threatening to “just vendor the helm”.

    • MelRedcap says:

      Some people really, honestly can’t understand when they’re trying to pressure you and it isn’t working. “If you don’t do what I want I’ll do X!” “Yes, and? I don’t care.” “But… if you don’t do what I want I’ll do X!!!” XD

  6. Bristal says:

    I got the wrath of unchaining trinket when I just simply, and sincerely “gratsed” the need roll winner. He whispered back “do you need it?” I did and he passed it to me!

    At first I was aglow with his kindness, which then turned to wondering why the hell he needed on it in the first place then I started reading blog posts about needing on everything. I guess groups of 5 also queue together and agree to need on everything and trade them after.

    The capacity for humans to cheat for minor personal gain despite the obvious detriment to the greater good is astounding.

  7. Rades says:

    The problem with not being able to roll on a piece you already have (I am writing a post about this, actually) is that sometimes people DO need multiples of the same item – when they are dual-specced DPS and each spec requires different stats. For example, my DK is specced Frost/Unholy, which use vastly different stats (Unholy wants zero Expertise, Frost wants 26). This means if I want to be able to switch specs mid-raid, I either have to hearth and completely reforge for/away Expertise…or have a second set of the same gear ready and on-hand, reforged differently.

    Yes, you could simply accept the stat hit, but that’s (at Expertise cap alone) 781 points of wasted stats. That’s like going to your raid completely ungemmed. In my opinion, that is simply not acceptable for any progression-level raider to accept.

    Of course, try explaining this in an LFR. It simply doesn’t work.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      Which is why I agree that just having Blizzard ban anyone from having more than one of an item won’t work. There are perfectly reasonable reasons why someone can use more than one to perform all the tasks they have or roles in raids.

      If there were no dual-spec option in the game, it might very well be a different story, locked into one role by design. But to my way of thinking, the addition of dual-spec implies the acceptability of multiple valid roles. And if multiple roles for one character are valid, so too is rolling for gear.

      The onus is on the individual to not abuse the system, and therein lies the craptastical fun of LFR.

    • Pazi says:

      A progression raider sure needs LFR to gear up, yeah right….

      • Sacrogoth says:

        I’m not a progression raider myself, but yes, they do.

        Progression is about having the best gear you can to down the bosses. Part of that is going in to LFR, since it gives higher quality stuff than the heroics ever will. Only 6 iLvls, but that can and does make a difference stat wise.

  8. Jeffrey Boser says:

    The main problem is that there is no benefit to passing on loot rolls.

    It is easy enough to fix, just take away all the gold from all the mobs in lfr, and for each boss pay the passers something in the 50-100 gold range (say, 20g per pass click).

    I suggested it in the forums, but it didn’t seem anybody liked the idea.

  9. Meebs says:

    It might be good enough to change it so that everyone gets a limited amount of need + role bonus rolls per each half of lfr. That way people might think about using their roll on stuff they actually want/need, insread of just hitting the dice everytime they light up. It would havd to be set-up in such a way that it didn’t reset each time you drop group and requeue. But it might work.
    The only other options I could think of is random loot assignment like tor does in normal raids. Which gives whatever to whoever and seems like more of a mess. Or just give everyone a loot bag like holidays and low level dungeons. But that still has the rng chance of containing something you don’t need or already have.

  10. Fangtastic says:

    Our guild runs LFR premades on our server. We usually have 15 – 18 guildies and pug the rest from trade chat. Since we’re going in with 25, it lets us set master looter. The loot rules are simple: Main spec before offspec and if you win a mainspec roll, you can not roll main spec against someone who hasn’t won anything yet.

    It works really well, spreads the loot around and since people are from the same realm, they behave as they’ve seen each other before (usually). We have people often asking when we’re going to do a premade LFR and wanting to sign up for it as this way all the asshattery over loot is eliminated.

    This should work for anyone who is on a medium or high population server and is quick and fun.

  11. Ngita says:

    I just ignore it and only roll on upgrade, then when they try for swapsies,too bad what i have is actually an upgrade already.. The interesting thing I have noticed is the more popular a slot is the more likely they are to do it. Tanks hardly do it, healers mostly don’t Dps do, especially vanq users,

    But I don;t know if its solvable, I would rather lose 10 items to idiots then lose one upgrade because blizz said I coud not have it. The core issue is their is needing a item is always a short tern gain, even if its just vendor gold.

  12. Minos says:

    I’ve started promoting vote kicks on people who hold loot ransom for trades like this. I haven’t been successful yet, though.

  13. Gameldar says:

    Was that your pally or your rogue that that happened on BBB? I’ve accidentally rolled need on things that I already had on both my pally and druid and then passed them off to the next highest… but then timezones would mean we don’t overlap :)

    I agree you can’t lock out players from rolling on things they already have. I play feral/feral and so my gear is largely the same – I’ve gone down the crit/mastery build for tanking so my gear can overlap – but even though I can use the same gear my enchants and reforging need to be different.

    I’ve more or less come to terms with how LFR loot works. I’ve been pretty luck in general though and won probably more than my fair share of rolls! The one thing that annoys me still is the need bonus for caster/melee regardless of which actual spec… I’ve lost the shoulders from Morchok to boomkins too many times now! And on the flip side I roll greed on boomkin gear because I don’t want to get the bonus – yet that puts it in the field for disenchanting rather than actually being used. I liked the suggestion I think Lore made that they actually have a main spec/offspec/disenchant buttons rather than need/green/disenchant – then it could qualify your roles even further and give priority to main spec (and then you could also do ‘already has this loot’ checks to some degree too).

  14. Balkoth says:

    Here’s the problem:

    What if you’re a rogue who only needs Wrath of Unchaining and there are two other rogues who just hit the 372 ilvl mark and need everything? And let’s assume that WoU is rogue only, for the hell of it.

    Let’s also assume, say, 4 other items rogues want (and miraculously are rogue only, this problem gets worse in practice) drop off previous bosses. Based upon these numbers, both of the new rogues have a 50% chance of winning one of the first four items and a 33% chance of winning the WoU, right? And you have a 33% chance of winning the one drop you need. Hopefully you see the issue.

    I don’t think either of those rogues is going to be inclined to give you the WoU if it drops because it’s the only item you need. And them getting all of the other gear without competition from you while you have to complete on the WoU seems a bit undesirable, given that this isn’t a static raid group. So, by rolling on the other four items, you might be lucky and win 2 of them. Then, when you lose on the WoU, you can trade two items for one and get the one item you actually need. Or maybe you lose on all four and win the WoU. Or maybe you lose on everything and it’s the same result of using your “Don’t roll if you don’t need” method.

    In short, there’s no situation where you’re worse off by rolling on everything to trade and you’re better off in practically every situation.

    There are just too many people rolling on the same item, unlike LFD where one, maybe 2 people actually want a given item most of the time. And because of the influx of new characters, situations like the one I outlined above are an issue. If everyone got geared up at the same rate and no one new entered, your method would make sense. But that’s not the case, and that’s the problem.

    Do I think people who roll need on stuff to sell it are jackasses? Yes. Do I think people going in with the above mentality are jackasses? No. RNG is not fair when one person needs far less items than another, it gives an advantage to the person who is less geared and can roll on more. With a static or fairly static raid group, it’s fine, for LFR, it’s not.

  15. Warscreamer says:

    To fix ‘boomkins need on agi shoulders’ we used to join LFR as guild in group of 10-15.
    During the loot phase we simply ask (in guild chat) if someone needs that item, if yes, we all need, if not we all pass/greed.
    Yes we are doing the same – needing on item if we have one, because our guild member needs it.
    No, we are not rolling need to sold item for 18G.

    Im sick of people joining LFR in PvP gear and then just set /follow on healer and roll need on everything.

  16. Pazi says:

    LFR is already dying (as I can see it from the queue-times) because of the numerous loot-problems that could have been prevented by Blizzard. The mechanics are already in the game but aren’t in use in LFR for whatever reason:

    - not being able to roll on unique loot you already have, most rings and trinkets are unique
    - making loot from LFR not sellable/disenchantable
    - loot can’t be traded (I know it’s fun to join LFR with a premade group of friends, but you do it for the fun and not to improve loot-chances, right???)

    To further improve the situation, Blizzard could:

    - take away the gearscore from pvp-gear (who the hell cares about gearscore in pvp anyway???), instead give gems and enchants a gearscore
    - give people a rollbonus that haven’t got the token for a certain slot
    - further improve the loot-distribution for certain items (classes, specs)

    From going into LFR with 9 alts the first week I went to 1 alt this week (and that one only because I tried helping out a friend to get a certain item), not because they already have anything but because I:

    - am tired of tanks that know nothing about tanking, have less hp/mitigation (yay for pvp-gear) than any dps
    - am tired of healers with hps lower than that of a shadowpriest
    - am tired of dds with dps lower than that of smiting priest
    - hate idiots that start encounters with 1 tank or 3 healers or 10 dps
    - hate idiots that leave group without rolling so all the others have to wait (Blizzard, how hard can it be to make it so that those players automatically pass on all items?)
    - don’t want to wait 30 minutes just to get 3/8 over and over again, and then another 30min to get 2/8
    - can get to my cap way faster on any class/spec by going random dungeons

  17. Riegnman says:

    The last time that I logged on (almost 3 weeks ago) I ran DS LFR with my fresh iLVL 372 or whatever warrior. First boss dropped a tier token legs, I think. I needed and won. I immediately got a whisper from a hunter on my server that said “dude, i need those legs”. I told him that I did too. He said that the legs were all that he needed to be able to get into a guild run of the “real ds” in 30 minutes. He said, “i’ll give you 5k gold right now”. Done!
    I didn’t need those pants that badly. :) I have 9 other toons with iLVLs over 380 and 5k gold for 15 minutes work sounded good.

    Of course, it’s still sitting in my bank right now, but if (who am I kidding? WHEN) I go back to playing, the money will be there and so will LFR.

  18. Morrighan says:

    Its a hard one, because I don’t believe we as a community can fix this. It may sound cynical, but I have come to the conclusion that a vast number of WoW players lack any empathy at all. They quite simply don’t care about their effect on other people. I call it NPCism. Players are unable to make a difference in their minds between NPCs and other players. Its by no means all players, but its a large enough proportion that community censure won’t work. It never worked. It that so-called paradise before LFD people STILL ninja’d loot, screwed over other players, etc. You just saw it less because, since it took so long to get a group together outside of your guild, you ran less dungeons and almost none outside the guild (at least, that was my experience).

    There is a fix. Its a simple one. Make LFR loot non-tradable. It only need apply to LFR loot. And Blizzard can just flat refuse to address mis-clicks. People should pay more attention! And while your at it, make it worth 0 gold. Remove the motivation to click on loot you don’t need any more. You can still roll on off-spec gear. And people can still do the ‘asshat’ rolls, but I think community censure against this will be more effective.

  19. Herr Drache says:

    Egad! Asdfasd! Slight-rant inc.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the game’s loot rules that Blizzard “needs to” or “has to” fix! Bliz could’ve left everything open, and not even bothered with the bonus. The system is fine. Something drops, everybody has the chance to win it. Nothing. Is. Broken. In. The. System.
    What’s broken are the players. Greedy people, be it for gold, offset pieces, ignorance, being an ass, ‘helping the new guildie’, whatever the motivation is, it’s the players that cause the problem. And then “they’re” crying for Blizzard to “fix the game”. The game ain’t broken, son, your buddies are!

    It’s that attitude that’s also around in the real world. As a society apparently we’re too stupid to look at what’s best for all, we’re all out for personal gain, and then we cry and whine and beg “The Government” to regulate, fix, curb, and get involved in every little aspect of our lives. And then we bitch because “The Governmnet” does micromanage us.

    Sure, in-game there are no repercussions among anonymous strangers, and you could argue that limitations set by Blizzard would keep “those” people in check. But still… :(

    As to loot system, I always liked to be a pug in the runs where the master looter held on to everything until after the first 4 bosses (or some other point). And *then* you could roll on items. Kept people around after ‘Gunship’, and you wouldn’t have to roll on things “for future trades”.

    • Pazi says:

      Of course humans are stupid. They only can live as a society if there are rules that keep them in check. Why would a game (made by humans) be any different? A game that doesn’t address stupidity is BROKEN. If you like to play with a masterlooter you’re simply saying that you like some sort of authority to control loot-distribution, something the game lacks.

  20. Homeschool says:

    I’m afraid I have to disagree with most of the other commentors, and say that I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the loot system.

    There’s nothing wrong with the loot system.

    We’ve been using Need before Greed for years, and it’s been mostly fine. The introduction of Need+ was heralded by angelic choirs, and everyone rejoiced. So, why is LFR the one place that everyone is screaming?

    Like you said, it’s the people – the community. This is the first time we’ve seen the widespread effects of combining all the servers into a giant pool, and what we’ve discovered (now that we’re all together) is that there’s a lot of people out there who behaving anarchistically. If they could stab you in the back and take things out of your bags, they would. If they could slip into your spellbook and take your mounts, they would. If they could reach through the computer, empty your bank accounts, and make themselves a swimming pool of money, they would. They simply don’t care.

    So, again, the loot system isn’t the problem, it’s that the game infrastructure enables this behavior, and these people feel no guilt about it. (Or if they do, they do it anyway.) Now the rest of us have that age-old choice: accept that we’re moral people in an amoral world (of Warcraft) and just suck it up, or play by the rules of the lowest common denominator and sacrifice our morals just to get by. Sure, we can queue with a group (and avoid the problem) or with a few people as vigilantes, stealing the gear and giving it to the poor, but that doesn’t really resolve the problem.

    The real problem is that we’re being matchmade and Blizzard isn’t taking responsibility for who they pair us with (except in the most extreme circumstances.) It’d be like if you signed up for a dating service that could send you out to dinner with an axe murderer. Good plan? With the server community going the way of Dalaran and Shattrath, we need to acknowledge that community rules are no longer enough. World of Warcraft needs a self-policed matchmaking system that allows us to rank other people on a few factors (such as behavior, skills, and pleasantness) so we can start identifying the people like us. Even a simple system that biases toward how you’re perceived would go a long way toward fixing the problem, as now you actually have to care about your reputation. (Steal something you don’t need? Well, guess what. Next time, you’re probably going to end up in a group of people who do the same. Maybe you’ll like that!)

    One more time, just for good measure: the loot rules aren’t the problem. The matchmaking is.

  21. Awryt says:

    My guild tries to run LFR together. We’ve had differing reaction from people who pug in when there are 18-22 of us wearing the same guild tag. Some people are excited knowing that it will likely be a clean and fast run (we always provide both tanks and most of the healers). Others are worried we will roll need on everything to trade around with our members. To make things clear, I have a macro I spam whenever someone joins us that explains we have two rules: only roll on stuff you need because we don’t trade/buy/sell drops and if you must go AFK then say so in raid and put yourself on follow with a healer because we will vote kick AFKers. Since we started setting that up at the start we’ve only had to vote kick two people and we frequently get people who run with us in the first half ask to continue with us for the second half. You can’t change other people, but we hope we are leading the to better behavior through example.

  22. Jac says:

    The current LFR system encourages everyone to be an asshat, and eventually I think that everyone will need on everything.

    Let me tell you a story. On my most recent LFR run, 1st wing, a shoulder token drops which I didn’t need. I passed on it. The the leg token drops, which I did need but lost the roll. The winner of the leg token (who already had the 397 legs, surprise) openly offers to trade it for the shoulder token.

    What incentive is there to try and be fair to others in the LFR?

  23. Kemonojin says:

    A load of people from my guild, including the main healers, left for Star Wars. We’re left with my ‘Woo! We just downed the lich king…hey, where did everyone go?’ shaman as a healer, along with another enhancement shaman who hasn’t ever healed. I have the experience, but no gear; and she doesn’t have either.

    The guild was farming everybody up to Raggy when this happened; we never did get him, but we were getting close. The only fight we have any trouble on is Beth, and mainly due to inexperience of the healers and mana problems. LFR gear would be a big help for us… but I no longer have the patience to put up with the asshattery. I used to tank and heal constantly on my druid and shaman, but now I just can’t stand being in a non guild group. It seems to have gotten worse…

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