When Warlords of Draenor comes out, we’ve been told that the existing stat system is getting a pretty big overhaul.

Reforging is being removed, taking control over the fine tuning and balancing of our stats away from us.

I keep hearing cheers for this. I don’t understand it.

Yes, I do understand that they are removing Hit (and I believe Expertise) from modern gear.

Without a ‘hit cap’ or expertise cap to reach to eliminate misses, we will no longer have to depend on reforging our early gear to reach a hit cap at the expense of other stats.

That simplifies things, certainly, but it doesn’t remove the benefits of having reforging available.

Every class and spec has some stats that are preferred over others. And with Haste in the game, some classes have certain ‘break points’ where reaching a set amount of Haste will give one extra tick of a Hot or Dot.

I don’t understand why I would WANT to give up the capability of choosing a stat I want to prioritize over others, and reducing other stats to get more of what is truly valuable to me.

I can see why Blizzard would do it, I’m saying I don’t understand why I’m supposed to be happy about it.

World of Warcraft is easy to learn, and requires some effort to master. Right? Of course you CAN play your characters without reforging, optimizing stats, reaching hit caps, etc. Just as you can queue for LFR without enchanting or gemming your gear.

Yay?

I like having reforging available as an option.

I once played this game without reforging being in it. Did you?

A lot of us did.

You may recall, during Burning Crusade, when there was no reforging but there WERE gem slots and gem cutting.

As a Bear Druid Tank, I made quite a few posts breaking down the benefits and how-tos of ‘reforging’ your stats using gems to get the most benefit in damage mitigation and avoidance. Because we wanted to be the best we could at our role, and the only tool we had at the time to adjust our shit was doing the math on stats from gems.

I rejoiced over the addition of reforging because it meant MOST of my fiddle-fapping around could be done at the reforger instead of by using expensive gems.

If you’re going to remove reforging and expect me to actually be happy about it, then the core reason why we wanted reforging in the first place has to be removed entirely.

Our gear would have to dynamically shift stat weights to favor the most optimum stat balance for our current spec FOR us.

Either every leather-wearing agility-using class would need to share the same stat priorities, or the agility leather chestpiece that drops would have to adjust it’s own stats so that when equipped by a Guardian Druid it has more crit but when equipped by a Rogue it has more Haste.

Those are not to represent what those classes/specs want NOW. It’s just to illustrate that we know that ain’t gonna happen, so I am unhappy reforging is going away.

As far as I can tell, the reason we shouldn’t mind that reforging is being removed is because they are royally fucking gear stats.

Our gear will now have main stat and stamina, and those other stats on it are, well, a bonus. We should consider ourselves lucky they have those bonus stats, and what bonus stats something has may be made up at random, so you never know what gumdrop will pop out from the loot dispenser next.

So now Normal, Heroic, Mythic and Warforged get a new variable added to the mix; stat roulette. What will we get this time? Will it be useful, or crap for my class? Oh boy!

I’m still not seeing how this system is going to result in anything other than our keeping every damn piece of loot we get so we can swap pieces in and out to balance our stats that way. Yes, keeping three different chest pieces in my inventory is far better than visiting a reforging vendor.

Okay, I’ve gotten that out of my system. It’s not live yet, and since I occasionally play on a heroic raiding team I might be unusual in my desire to squeeze every drop of capability out of my character that I can get to offset my lack of skill.

I don’t know, I can’t see the future. Maybe when the new stat and gear system comes out, we’ll be so excited at the way our gear changes from healing to tanking to DPS as we change specs that we won’t care about stat maximizing anymore. Maybe we’ll just let it go and stop sweating it so much.

While I’m talking about stats and changes to the system in Warlords, I’d like to hit one more topic.

Haste.

I would like to see the removal of Haste as a stat from the entire system.

I am playing a lot of characters, swapping back and forth right now. And for the first time I can recall, I am playing multiple characters of the same class.

I am playing my heroic-geared Warlock, and then I switch over and immediately play my son’s LFR and Timeless Isles geared Warlock.

I raid with both Warlocks, I make the same effort to gem/enchant/reforge both, they both have the same spec, it’s apples to apples.

Don’t check Wooffie on the Armory today, I got two new pieces of gear late last night and I haven’t gemmed or reforged anything to accomodate them yet. Normally, he’s the bees knees.

I’ve noticed this before, a LOT, but the Wooffie to Ursinerate swapping has really shoved it in my face.

Haste as a stat SUCKS FOR GAMEPLAY.

The other stats all increase or decrease potential damage or survivability. Bigger numbers, smaller numbers.

Haste is the only stat that actually changes how your character feels to play.

The more Haste you get, the faster those buttons can be clicked, the faster your energy regens, the faster you can DO SHIT.

When your Haste is very low, as it is at the start of your gearing journey, fighting and using your abilities in combat, and waiting for energy to regenerate can feel like punching under water. The moves are there, but they’re sllooooowwwwwwww and have no sense of oomph to them.

As you improve your gear and your baseline Haste increases, abilities get faster, your character gets more responsive.

This is not fun.

Sure, if you’re raiding and your gear improves constantly so you’re running hot, it’s fine. Your character feels slicker than a greased otter in a jello-wrestling pit.

But what if you’re not raiding at the front of the curve? Most of us aren’t.

What, so we get to play characters that aren’t as responsive or nimble as others do?

Gameplay is the feeling we have when we play our character, how responsive it is, how quickly we can react and move and perform our abilities.

Stats that increase the power of our abilities makes sense, but stats that change the flow and frequency of how often we can USE those abilities change our impression of our characters, how they feel to handle and control, and can give a new player the feeling that this character with long cast times sucks to play because slooowww, while this other character with lots of instant casts is far more fun because buttons.

I would like to see all characters have the ‘good’ Haste rate be standard. Characters should always be responsive and quick to play, we can have our power gated by some other tool than by limiting how often you get to push a button.

My hunter, who I began to play a bit the last week (I blame Rosin) won the trinket in LFR Siege that reduces the cooldown of a lot of abilities.

Totally transforms the character play flow, things feel faster, more responsive. A LOT more fun.

Why not feel like that all the time? Why stand around twiddling thumbs, or waiting for glacially slow cooldowns spamming the same shot cause that is the only option up?

You don’t need Haste to reduce the effective power of a character. That greased otter feeling ought to be there all the time.

Thus ends this morning bear bullshit break. Have a great day!

23 Responses to “Lets DO Be Hasty!”
  1. Grimmtooth says:

    From Blizz’ perspective, I imagine what they see is that although Reforging offers choice, the vast majority of people that use it use it for the same cookie-cutter builds.

    Follow the pattern and you’ll note that where cookie cutters are present, they do two things. 1) they remove that mechanic (i.e. the old Talent system) and 2) they baseline the “cookie cutter” spec/ability/configuration.

    The philosophy being that if everyone makes the same choice, there is no choice, in reality.

    So I can see where they’re coming from with respect to this and gems. I may or may not agree, but I do see the probable cause and understand the motivation.

    • Azwing says:

      I think you’re right about why Blizz does it, but I don’t agree with their choice.

      Cookie cutter will always be there. All they did was remove most of the options and make it simple. The problem I have with this is that is removes the ability to try different things out. Remember back to the days of BC, when you had a rogue building a dodge spec to tank Gruul? That was a cool idea that was possible only by playing with the talent options. But, first Blizz made it so you could only spec into another talent tree after maxing one tree, limiting the number of options you had in the other two trees. Then, they dumped the whole thing and make you choose from only 6 tiers of talents, again severely limiting choice. But, there’s still a cookie cutter build for a given class/spec…now it’s just restricted to 6 tiers.

      I see the same thing happening with gear, like Bear is talking about. Reforging, of course, is another element of cookie cutter. But, at least you have options. Remove reforging and you’re left with a cookie cutter with limited options.

      • Grimmtooth says:

        To your point about talent trees, I will throw out that although the “cookie cutters” still happen, more often than not what Blizz has done is baseline the “cookie cutter’d” talent and replaced it with something else (which seems to lead to a talent tree full of irrelevant choices, but that’s another rant).

        I actually happen to like all the choices; if I had my way we’d go back to the old talent tree format and have fewer abilities with tiers of power to them rather than just a few talent choices and too many buttons; so don’t take my understanding of the engineering choices to imply approval :) At the end of the day I’ll take what I get and make the best of it, as I’m sure most people will do.

        The whole goal, I suspect, of all this simplification is to make the game designer’s job easier. Not because they’re lazy, but because lessened complexity makes it easier to put out a stable, balance product.

        The trick is finding the balance between that and players leaving over it becoming *too* simple.

  2. koalabear21 says:

    I was under the impression that the way gear was going to be was optimized for the spec you are in.

    So if you are a Pally, you have one set of gear and the stats change depending on what spec you are. This way you don’t have to have 3 sets of gear.

    Have they changed that?

    I know they were using this as another reason you wouldn’t need to reforge.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      Only whether it is strength, intellect style of thing changes. Weights on other stats are not set to change. And especially not from plate dps DK to plate dps Warrior to plate dps Pally.

      • koalabear21 says:

        Hmmm

        I didn’t remember all of that. It was a few months ago though.

        The biggest thing that stood out was the whole not needing multiple sets of gear.

  3. Mihoshi says:

    I seem to recall that Blizzard is implementing a partial tick system in order to eliminate break points, basically if your 50% of the way towards the next full tick being added to your DoT / HoT then you have a tick at the end which does 50% of a normal ticks damage / healing which will increase to 100% as you get closer to the break point.

    I may be mistaken but I think there was a blue post about it.

  4. Jey says:

    I for one am pretty glad that reforging is going away. And I’ll try and lay it out briefly why.

    First off, I quit playing the game before the first major content patch in cata and just recently got back so I am not really used to having it in the first place.

    I understand that in the game as it is today it is largely necessary for the reasons that you said (hit, expertise and haste breakpoints) but I don’t really feel like reforging was a solution to these problems but more of a work around.

    From what I understand they are eliminating the haste breakpoints in warlords so that will not be a problem (your other dislikes of haste set aside). Hit and expertise are gone so we also don’t need it for that anymore either.

    As far as stats go, the primaries are set based on spec (sweet), the secondaries are set to each piece of gear so that is not really random and the tertiaries are completely random and can’t be planned for at all. Your argument for reforging is obviously about the secondary stats and I really don’t see that being an issue. If anything I actually see it being better than in the past as the armor will change based on spec so that piece of mastery/crit gear that you want won’t be unusable because it only comes with intellect.

    Also blizzard has said they want to get all stats within 30% of one another. I think that’s entirely possible and if they manage to do it it will be a ton better than at the moment.

    But i think that my biggest problem with reforging is based on this comment that you made “Don’t check Wooffie on the Armory today, I got two new pieces of gear late last night and I haven’t gemmed or reforged anything to accomodate them yet.” I have almost entirely stopped switching out my gear when I get it and been waiting instead for several upgrades to come first because every point of ilevel screws up my balance.

    I remember when I would be wanting a gear upgrade in say ICC and I could simply take the gems I wanted and the enchant and equip it without having to worry about whether that was the right gem combination or if I was throwing all my stats way out of whack.

    One of the biggest arguments that I have seen is the lack of customizability we are going to have but throwing gear into a website that tells you how to Reggie and gem it isn’t customizability that’s just imaginary freedom.

    You may feel different but I hope I could articulate alright the other side of the argument.

    • R says:

      100%. Reforging serves 2 main purposes today:

      1) Allows you to hit (or get close to) various soft and hard caps – hit, exp, haste, crit, etc.
      2) Makes the “good” vs “bad” gear delta smaller in any one tier.

      The expectation from Blizzard is that 1 is going away… snapshotting will no longer be a thing, at least in large part, and without hit and expertise caps to hit, reforging no longer becomes arguably necessary…

      2 is where I think most of the “I’m gonna miss reforging” opinion is coming from, at least the valid ones. Fair enough, but Blizzard has already said that with reforging coming out they’ll have to make sure all secondaries are at least in the same general ballpark – if nothing else, reforging allowed them to worry about it less because you could, in large part, take care of the issue yourself. There shouldn’t be any issues like warriors have with haste in WoD, though.

      As well, removing reforging will make gear upgrades feel more meaningful, especially within tiers (generally they feel meaningful now regardless of stats if you’re upgrading in iLvl). When the difference between BiS and WiS in a tier (strictly stat-wise, at the same iLvl) is 8% instead of 5%, you should appreciate the upgrade more. And not to put too fine a point on it, if you don’t, then you shouldn’t miss reforging.

      As Jey also pointed out, upgrades in WoD will be significantly more immediate impact. With significantly fewer gem sockets, no socket bonuses, fewer enchants and no reforging or caps to hit or breakpoints to worry about, if you get an upgraded piece of gear, in most cases you’re going to PUT IT ON. Immediately. No checking a website, no pulling up an add-on, no “it’s a downgrade until I spend 1200g and 45 minutes of tweaking”. It’ll also mean that a warrior who has a haste/mastery piece will actually be looking forward to getting the crit/mastery one as an upgrade, not dreading having to spend so much gold and effort to get a smaller benefit than he’ll get today without the cost and hassle.

      My first reaction when I heard they were getting rid of hit and expertise was “Yes!”. My second was “… and let’s hope they get rid of reforging as well.” I’m more than happy they decided to do exactly that.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      I agree with all your points. So long as ALL the reasons for reforging are properly addressed, this will be great.

      That is part of why I drug Haste into it.

      The stated goal is to modify the existing system so if I get a new drop, I can equip it on the fly. It is an upgrade now, not after I go mess with it for an hour.

      Until I see how they are recall going to achieve that, I’m going to remain worried that we will see halfway measures that remove options we end up wanting after all.

      • R says:

        That bar is too high… all of them won’t be, losing reforging will ALWAYS be sub-optimal… but the benefit of not having to deal with reforging just has to end up larger than the negative of losing it for the majority of us. Not having to hit various caps or breakpoints alone will be enough for me even if they don’t rebalance stats… but they will so that’s a moot point.

        We survived pre-reforging in a world that HAD caps and breakpoints… we’ll be fine without it, too.

  5. urbanmech says:

    I don’t think the secondary stats will be random. If bobs boots have 5 haste and 5 crit they will always have those secondaries. I believe there is a chance for bobs boots to have a third secondary like cleave or movement speed. Totally random stats would lead us to diablo land which I don’t think the players or designers want.

    Reforging is a great tool because it lets you use gear that isn’t perfect for your spec. Destro locks want Mastery and Crit, Aff locks want Haste and Mastery, if a Crit/Haste piece drops, Reforging allows both players to get use out of the item. Removing reforging will return us to the BiS lists of the past. I’m not sure I like that change. Removing hit and expertise is awesome, as they were never really fun at all.

    • bigbearbutt says:

      Agreed! :)

      Yeah, it’s the tertiary fun stats that are random.

      I clearly made it sound like the secondary stats were random, that wasn’t my intent. Those are fixed per drop, and don’t change based on spec, which is the point I was trying to make.

      So if you want crit, and it has haste, you got haste. In the long run you’ll want a different drop.

      Unless there are still break points, where someday you WILL want that haste.

  6. tweell says:

    Blizzard has also stated that gem slots would be fewer and harder to come by, so tweaking gear via gems isn’t going to be a viable option. This makes losing reforging more dangerous. Still, WoW hasn’t been the MMO juggernaut for years for nothing. Wait and see.

  7. Copey says:

    “The stated goal is to modify the existing system so if I get a new drop, I can equip it on the fly. It is an upgrade now, not after I go mess with it for an hour.”

    This. This is why reforging must go. As stated by previous posters, I get a piece of gear in a raid, I can’t use it until I go to askmrrobot.com and see how I can reforge it. Because if I do equip it right there, as a resto druid, a major gear upgrade could actually bring me under a haste cap and thus make me less effective.

    The fact that there are sites like ask mr. robot out there just goes to show how overly complicated the system is. Yes I was around before reforging, and yes I had to figure out how to gem appropriately by my self back in the day. I remember stacking stam gems in my tank gear until a certain point, then changing them all to agility gems because the extra armor and dodge made me more effective. But that was balancing two major stats (because the rest were crap), not 8 important stats or how ever many we have now. As said, if you and I have the same gear, and we reforge it exactly the same because we both want “optimal” performance (and we used the same tool to figure it out) then there really is no choice at all. Either do it this way, or be “bad”. Blizz has repeatedly tried to get away from this. That’s why the talent system changed, that’s why armor penetration went away, that’s the driving force behind many things.

    Also, I think that while all of us reading this are obviously very well versed in looking up wow stuff on the internet, many people are not. An insane amount of people do not look up stuff on the internet, they just play the game IN the game. Putting things in the game like quest trackers that tell you where to go to get your zebra hoofs, and a journal with boss strategies, further encourages this. Blizzard doesn’t want a system that requires 3rd party addons or for you to look up stuff out of game in order to be optimized. I’ve always found the research fun, but I’d say I’m in the minority in that department as far as the general population of wow is concerned.

    As far as Haste going away because you want to feel awesome from the start…I don’t get that. The whole driving force behind a gear driven game is to upgrade your character and make it feel better and more awesome to play. I think you are slightly biased because you are playing two characters of the same exact class at different iLvLs. Your toon that is heroic raid geared SHOULD feel more awesome to play. That’s how it works. I imagine your son probably only feels like his warlock is sluggish if he also plays your warlock. If he doesn’t he probably feels just fine playing his.

  8. Cozy says:

    I’ve not played for a good few years, but you made me flashback. To Burning Crusade and trying to gear for uncrushable and the block number as a paladin tank.

    I kept any tanking gear I got my mits on simply because I might need it again – yes, that item is a direct upgrade to this item, for all bar one stat, eg, block… So I need to dig back in my bank and dig out something for another slot that has more block, and was banked as a downgrade for it’s own slot, but now is necessary again because this other upgrade has has less block and I’ll go back under cap if I just swap it out….

    On the other hand, whenever anyone rated my gear and told me that X item would be better for that slot, I could honestly tell them that I wasn’t at cap with that, it was in my bank, but if they wanted me to trade it into my tanking set, what else would they like me to swap in to get back to cap?

    I’m jealous that you only had three chestplates. I ended up with at least two and sometimes three of most slots to be able to swap out for tanking kit. My dream was getting a piece that was a clear upgrade for all relevant stats and meant I could actually clear something out.

  9. nobody says:

    Going away in WoD: hit, expertise, dodge, parry, some gems slots, some enchant slots
    Modified in WoD: Haste to remove the break points
    New in WoD: the primary stat(STR/INT/AGI) changes by spec but the secondary(Haste/Crit/Mastery) and tertiary(cleave/speed/procs/etc.) don’t change

    Currently the part of reforging that bites people in the behind the most and makes upgrade drops sit in bags until reforging/chanting/gemming is the hit/exp caps.

    Personally I would prefer for reforging to remain in the game. All the comments they have made make it sound like the value of crit, haste and mastery will be much closer than they are now. This means that reforging becomes an optional thing you do to change your play style some and not a must do thing. You can choose big crits over faster attacking or whatever you mastery does but the overall effect is basically the same.

    I believe the primary reason they are removing the stats and reforging is to make their job easier. Dropping 4 abilities makes balancing classes and encounters easier. Restricting enchants, gems, and dropping reforging keeps some brilliant from figuring out how to reforge their gear in a clever way to make a class work in an unintended fashion. Look at prot pallys in MoP, Theck showed that haste was a better stat than mastery for survivability which was certainly not what the devs intended. If someone figures out something like this in WoD we will see tanks rolling on “dps gear” or vice versa because that will be the only way to accumulate the secondary stat.

    The big caveats here are that WoD is not finished yet.
    1) Some of this may not happen until after path of the titans is added to the game….or the dance studio….
    2) The actual implementation may be such that we like it. I was skeptical about the reduced talent tree in MoP but overall it works well.

  10. Ngita says:

    I am not 100% sure I like reforging going but I do understand it. First and foremost raiding is designed around what you can do. If reforging allows perfect stat optimisation then raiding is designed around players with perfect stat optimisation. So its yet another raider tax. Wod design seems to follow what they have been heading towards this expansion which is more and more loot and the removal of reforging allows it to be a treasure hunt for the right drop rather then just walk up to the reforger and convert the stats.

    The haste thing, back in the day my priests greater heal used to be a 4 second cast, something these would seem outrageous to actually heal a 5 man with and yes I used it because I was shadow and anything quicker would have drained my mana. As expansions went past things went faster and faster and the content was designed for faster and faster until with wotlk and Hero bouncing against the minimum GCD was actually a real concern, the thought and planning of healing has gone out the window it was just some giant simon says running right at the verge of where you can’t keep up. In cata they resolved that but instead we have gone down the smart heal path. Smart heals are great, getting a smart heal that allows you to compete with the other guys smart heal is great, but in the accumulation their are far to many smart heals, the thought and planning has gone out the window again and we just spam smart heals. Too the point where you get a fight your particular brand of smart heal is not well suited for you just want to be sat so your not letting the team down.

  11. Riegnman says:

    I’ll be honest, I look forward to a simpler WoW. I think that is the goal. A simpler game. Remember Vanilla and BC ( and, to some extent, WotLK)? Gameplay was a lot less granular. Game fun was based on killing stuffs and not sitting around the virtual campfire comparing numbers. Even up until Naxx, I remember the raid leaders screaming “MOAR DOTS” instead of “you’re only doing 200k? You need to be doing 225k!” Remember the Safety Dance? Keeping zombies away from the mutt? Keeping frost resist gear in your bags for that ONE fight?

    I miss those days. Probably why my sub expired again and I didn’t even notice.

    • Morquendi says:

      Or a hunter stacking +spellpower gear just to see if was possible to out-heal Azuregos and pet tank him…..

      While I can applaud Blizzard’s desire to simplify the complexity of min-maxing, it does take some of the inadvertent fun out of the game.

      The reality is that somebody will figure out a way to min-max with the new stat system and we’ll find ourselves holding on to two-tier-old gear just for a specific gem slot or a particularly exploitable combination of stats and Blizzard will have to rework the systems again to achieve the level of parity they desire.

  12. Sol says:

    Here’s a blue tweet I found when I went looking for a reference to haste breakpoints being gone. https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/405552253479575552

  13. Kaleesh says:

    I’m not sure if I’m just having wishful thinking or what, but I feel like there’s a chance they might change it drastically or even remove it before launch. A small chance, but a chance. It’s just so out there, you know? It’s so bizarre it just seems like something that might not happen. I don’t understand why they’re so bent on making it so easy it shoots out the other end and becomes difficult.

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