I hate Damage Meters

This didn’t start out as a rant, but being it’s coming from me, guess what this turned into?

This one is all about Damage Meters and the people that use them.

If you don’t know what I’m talking about, then you are fortunate. Run away now. Now, I tell you!

Since running Karazhan with the guild, I have once more had to come face to face with the players that are obsessed with Damage Meters. Coincidentally enough, they are the same players that obsess over PvP. Can we draw some conclusions there? Sure, I probably will later, just for fun. And because they annoy me, so if I insult even one of them it will give me warm fuzzies.

A quick break down is this; Damage Meters is an addon, or a generic term for any addon that tracks the damage done by each member of the party or raid, and compares them, displaying the results usually in a ‘top 10’ format. This comparison can also be done for amount healed, amount OVERhealed, etc. And you can broadcast the results to a channel. Such as the raid channel.

It CAN have a positive use for a guild. If a group of players are pretty tight, and willing to listen to constructive criticism when it’s presented in a respectful way and backed up by comparative “apples to apples” math, then it can be used to compare the damage output of a pair of hunters, or rogues, or the overhealing done by various healers, and help guild or class officers to pinpoint areas of player skill that can be improved with training or practise.

Whew! I love run on sentences!

So, sounds good, right? Yeah, too bad that’s not how it gets used.

Instead, what you get is an asshat that thinks that being #1 on raw damage output in a run makes them the most valuable member of the run, and also gives them a license to talk shit or belittle other members of a run.

I have personally been part of a failed Black Morass PUG run, as the tank, where a full Tier 5 rogue pulled aggro away from me constantly… just a horrible run. And afterwards, when we were trying to talk about how to approach the fight for the second try, the rogue broadcasts the Damage Meters tally, with him proudly at #1, and declares that someone needs to go… and obviousy it’s not HIM that was the weak link.

And that there is one of the biggest problems of Damage Meters. There is more to any run than just who pumped out the most damage. But the asshats don’t want to hear that.

For example, in our Karazhan runs we have taken two different hunters in the last week. Both of them have shown excellent skill in trapping and re-trapping mobs on the pulls. Both of them have kept control of the situation when it goes into the crapper, and both have been joys to work with.

When Damage Meters gets broadcast across the raid channel, inevitably they are both showing up at around #7 or #8.

Who is #1? Why, a warlock or mage, of course… although a retribution paladin is close behind.

I find myself amused to see that I, when tanking, am hitting around #5.

Wow! A feral tank at #5 on Damage Meters! I must be overpowered! Feral bear druids are melee DPS! (yeah, right).

Or, just perhaps, we should examine what ELSE a class is responsible for beyond damage output? Maybe something else is going on there? Hmmm?

As a feral tank, my threat is closely linked to damage output. I sit there and pound away as hard as I can, using every drop of rage to get aggro and hold it. Therefore, that #5 represents the absolute best damage I can generate.

The hunter, on the other hand, is running around trapping and retrapping targets, and hey, guess what? On 80% of the pulls the warlock or mage is pulling aggro and yanking a mob straight back into the casters… and forcing the hunter into melee range.

What Damage Meters do is provide a way for players that get off on bragging that they are better than other players to have some math to prove they are right.

And boy, what do they do to get high up in the Damage Meter rankings? Why they pour out the damage as fast as they can…. and put out so much threat that they pull a mob on top of themselves, and die in one or two blows.

I think of Damage Meters as the ignorant redneck stepchild of Threatmeters.

Threatmeters provide a way for a raid group to see exactly how much healing or damage they can do to a target, without drawing it’s attention away from the tank. Hear that? Without drawing it’s attention away from the tank!

We have been pulling together as a team lately in Karazhan. Those who care about others and are trying their best are being noticed, and those that are in it for themselves are also being noticed. It is only a matter of time before we get it all together and become a strong, consistent team. I’d say the majority are already there.

But it’s becoming clear to me that the people I want to run with aren’t necessarily those that are at the top of the Damage Meters rankings and trumpet the fact.

No, it’s the players that are doing MORE than spamming their attack button as fast as they get the mana. It’s the player that sets their trap, sends their pet to help me, hits misdirect to pull their designated mob to the trap, and then does damage to my mob in a carefully measured stream while watching their trap and readying the next step in the chain.

It’s the Warlock that banishes the demon on the pull, keeps an eye on it while doing carefully measured damage to my mob, and gives out a countdown of the last seconds before the Banish is due to expire so we are prepared.

And by Elune, it’s the mage that comes in second in the Damage Meter rankings… but never once pulled aggro away from me during the run. NOT ONCE.

Now that is something to brag about.

Oh yeah… and to anyone that consistently pulls aggro away from me with ranged damage, drags the mob into melee range of the hunter, and then after the run insults the hunters’ low Damage Meter ranking? Yeah, I got two words to say to you, and they ain’t Merry Christmas.


39 thoughts on “I hate Damage Meters

  1. Amen.Best way to deal with an idiot who keeps pulling aggro off of you is to warn them what they’re doing and ask them to scale back. When they don’t let them die a few times…. save the Growl until after they are dead.If you have a good group, the loss of one jerk in mid-fight shouldn’t impact you too badly. (Don’t cause wipes, obviously.)


  2. I love damage meters, but I am fortunate to have rarely seen them abused in the way that you describe. Maybe the issue is less with the addon itself and more with the addon’s facilitation of asshattery among certain raidmates. I, for one, use Healing meters as a gauge of how much I am contributing relative to other raidmates (as a Druid, I cannot concern myself as much with the overhealing statistic since I know that I am far overhealing everyone else, even if it doesn’t show on the meter).I think that this data is best internalized (i.e., not necessarily shared with the rest of the raid) and, if you happen to be in an advisory position, can be used to make constructive suggestions to those who don’t perform as well in the same capacity as you. In short, I wouldn’t entirely discount them as they can be helpful (as you have pointed out).P.S. I’ve used many different meters and now recommend Recount. It’s new, it’s pretty, and it does more than I ever thought a meter could do! (Pie graphs, bar graphs, and tons of breakdowns for individual members!)


  3. Ralowae here, 70 hunter, Zangermarsh server.Damage meters aren’t just the ignorant redneck stepchild of Threatmeters… they are the tools of epeening. They are the spawn of the demons if used improperly and should be used only by people that know what the frack they’re doing.I have indeed had the same problem with people bashing the hunter because I’m too busy freeze trapping to be a DPS machine, I’ve also seen it happen to anyone that was CCing yet for some reason “should have been higher” on the meters. Not to mention in my experience half the damage meters are not accurate unless everyone in the party/raid runs linked meters.It is a sore temptation to use misdirect when the said jerk is close to pulling agro and ensure his doom… but I’m a good hunter. I don’t risk party wipes like that. I feel I speak for all hunters, however, when I say we will gladly Misdirect|Aimed|Distracting|Arcane a jerk, sealing his doom if the group/raid wishes it to teach him a lesson. That’s what whispers are for.


  4. @Phae… you make a strong point about how useful Damage/Healing Meters can be as a ‘self inprovement’ tool. I used them the same way when I was resto healing Onyxia and Molten Core, and wanted to theorycraft different techniques to min/max and avoid overhealing. And I can’t wait to try out Recount, as I like things that do old stuff in new ways! (Where is my updated Itemrack!) I intend to try out Omen Threatmeters cause a friend says it integrated with KLHThreatmeters, but looks prettier, for the same reason.@Ralowae… LoL. I’ve read BRK make the same threats in his blog. I have also read BRK point out, as I do, that his Pet’s damage output should be added in with the hunter’s total. Of course, Damage Meters seems to have some bugs in it, where the only pets it tracks are those the person actually RUNNING the Damage Meters addon has in play. And @Karthis… that very thing happened, what was it.. Saturday night. We went after more critters and Maiden…. and we had gone the entire fight through the Critters and taking down the bat boss, before the raid leader mentioned that one of the… more conflicted members had been unannounced afk the whole fight. The success without him, and the added DKP for a successful boss whack that he didn’t get, truthfully made it all the sweeter.


  5. Our kara and gruul runs use damage and threat meters pretty heavily. I couldn’t even imagine doing Gruul without a threat meter.I agree with most people’s posts, but I do think that damage meters serve an excellent purpose. The trick is to always reset your damage meter before a boss fight. Knowing that a mage can pump out huge dps on 4+ AOE mobs or that a rogue can beat a chain trapping hunter in a 4 pull doesn’t do anyone any good — but if your comparatively geared hunter isn’t out dpsing your rogue on Prince (where the rogue has to run in and run out, you can pinpoint a potential flaw in the hunters shot rotation / timing / etc.If you’re not clearing damage meters before a boss, you’re not using them correctly.


  6. As a rogue, I use Damage Meters all the time. And it seems that most of your post may very well be directed at rogues that use Damage Meters. However, I also use Threat Meters. Damage Meters aren’t inherently bad, but it’s the people that use them like you described. For me and many others, they are self-motivating tool to get us to improve our play. Being a rogue, I don’t have much more of a role except to do damage, especially in a raid like Karazhan.Threat Meters should be a tank’s “damage meter”. Establishing aggro quickly and constantly gaining as much aggro as possible seems like it should be a major goal of all tanks. DPS, Rogues especially. are limited in their DPS by the aggro that their tanks can produce. If a tank is running around in pre-Karazhan gear and your rogue is running around in Tier 5, there will be a problem because I doubt the tank will be able to produce enough aggro without severely crippling the DPS of the rogue.That all said, good rant. ~_^


  7. BBB, I’ll make one small “yes” for recount omen, for one reason. I can select to see the threat-table of ONE mob in the crowd as well as the general ‘everybody’s threat level’.As a healer confronted with the DMepeen, I usually pop right back with the Heals Received – and then point out that the number two on that list, at 75% the tank’s heals received, only has half as much health. In other words, yanking aggro off the tank and making me waste mana healing a show-boat. “Starting now, watch your threat. Because you get renews only (if anything). No flash, no greater, and definitely no shield.”


  8. Agreed. But I think that for the use they SHOULD be on, they’re invaluable.I think people should be constantly pushing themselves to be better.BUT. BUT damage meters should only be used by people who know how to use them.In a fight that requires no CC, if you can see that the top four/five dpsers are doing some pretty significant damage, then you’ve got a STEEP dip in dps for the next four players (one of whom is usually a non-bear tank)…why is that hunter down there doing less dps than the tank, exactly? And that rogue, he’s got better gear than anyone else here, he should be way higher than that!Anyone assigned to CC should be automatically disregarded for dps meters, but there are some fights that provide a clear picture of people who need to learn their class better (or not put autoattack on and then go grab a soda)Unfortunately, this requires (as you noted) mature players and excellent leaders.The ingredients for proper usage of dps meters are obvious…just kinda hard to find.


  9. Hey BBBB – unfortionatly you’re seeing the difference between a good player using a good tool and a bad player.DMG Meters, Recap, WWS all of these things are great you can see everything from icetraps to overheal. And as much as it sounds mean, everyone in the raid should be trying to get the #1 spot. Now yes, you need to CC, you need to watch your agro and yes there are special things each person needs to be doing in raid bossfights.BUTIf you’re not DPSing as hard as you can you are not helping your raid do better. Fact if your DPS is too low you will not get past some bosses. As you progress through content there are bosses with “timers” and big HP that are a test of your DPS’s ability and gear.Enter DPS Check 1 – Gruul The Loot PinataThe fight mechanics are simple, little bit of aoe dmg, shatter and the OT gets hit with ever increasing hurtful strikes. But past that what is Gruul? Tank and spank with a timer. if you don’t kill gruul fast enough he will 1-shot your tank. End of story, if your tank is in t6 and all healers are as well but you have 10dps doing 200dps you will wipe every time.Now this isn’t encouraging dps to go retarted and pull agro, but watch KTM, and nuke your face off. A DPS person in your raid who is not serious about his DPS shouldnt be there.Shifttusk


  10. When I run with a bear tank, which is pretty much all my instance runs, I’ll use my first 5cp’s on an Expose Armor on the boss.With druid aggro being based on damage, that talent is actually useful in helping the druid gain early aggro and easily hold it throughout. At that point, the entire party is able to unleash on the boss without as much worry about threat issues.


  11. LOL… I agree that Damage Meters, in the right hands, are a valuable tool. IN THE RIGHT HANDS.My rant, of course, is based on the fact that, since entering Karazhan, the only time I see Damage Meters results being shared is as a ‘overall total after raid without resets for bosses cumulative’ Damage report. With bragging and sneers.I also apologise if I left the impression that I was singling out rogues for abuse. If anything,I’d LOVE to have a rogue to abuse, believe it or not we don’t have a single one on our Kara Group 2… because rogues are massively under-represented in our guild.No, my focus on this rant was to highlight an addon that should be used for good, that instead is twisted to serve evil. Mean, icky, selfish evil. The kind of evil that makes some players feel bad about their playing with no good reason, and encourages other players to throw caution to the winds and nuke, nuke, nuke so as not to be ‘too low’ on the charts.If my overly pounding on it encourages just one guild officer to think about it, and recognise the behavior in his own runs and squash it, then my work here is done. :)If your comments encourages that guild officer to install the addon and track who is doing a great job at healing or dps without pulling aggro, and congartualte those folks, then I’d be delighted.


  12. I totally support your rant BBB!And I have two examples of good an bad use of damage-meters lately. Good one first:When progressing through Karazhan, I noticed our rogue being way behind in the meters, although having received alot of rogue-loot and being the best-equipped player of the raid. I addressed this to the raidleader, and we looked up his spec in the armory, invited the rogue to teamspeak and discussed the matter.We came to the conclusion that his spec was very much unusable for PvE. He respecced right out, and I even offered to pay his expenses for doing so. From the next raid onwards, he was found in top 3 of the meters, always dependent on what we were fighting and who else was around.On the other hand, I have been healing a heroic Shadowlab lately. It was all pug and was originally meant to be non-heroic. I did it for reputation with lower city, and when farming reputation, I tend to humiliate myself…So back to topic. There were a mage and a shaman around, constantly bragging when one just overtook another on the meters. The tank had a real hard time as they pulled aggro constantly.Durin a period of constant “I beat you again.” “Now I am #1 again..” in teamspeak I just stopped healing them in trash groups once it was obvious the others would survive. Then I pointed out “..and now, you both are dead..”They died a couple of times and then complained they only hat 10G left and were unable to pay the repair-bill.Lol, I have been in the auction house buying pots for 60G+ that I actually used during the run….


  13. I’m fond of saying “Omen is my damage meter” or “KTM is my damage meter” when I’m tanking. Essentially, to me, this means that I own the meter. If I’m not owning the meter, someone needs to stop trying to do my job. Tell them to get their own meter.Either that, or let them die (yes, but wait!) and post the Death Meter and say “Wow, it’s amazing how the Death Count closely corresponds with who’s doing the most damage!”There was a rogue on my server who was a great leader. His name was Sebudai, and he said, “It’s really easy to tell how much damage you’re doing laying dead on the floor.”Let the T5 rogue figure it out.~Although, I must say, that for me Damage Meters come as a blessing. When I’m in a 25 man and I’m set on the dpsing role (yech.), but I find myself ABOVE those with full dps gear (I don’t take off tanking gear. Ever. Bad things happen) who aren’t dying, I can mention it to the Raid Leader who is healing, and they can fix the problem if one exists.There are good and bad sides to using Mods like SW Stats and Recount and Damage Meters. I look for the good sides; I’m sorry the bad sides have come looking for you =(


  14. As a Hunter or Bear tank which I always have Omen open and running. Yes I do have a dmg meter that I use as well. I have never once linked it for anyone to see. I use it for my own purposes to see where I stand. If I see others that are low in the raid dps especially Hunters i’d ask why? Do a gear check, ask about shot rotation, whether they popped trinkets etc. Also vise versa If there was a Hunter real high i’d find out what they were doing that i’m not. I think the damage meters are great when used properly. Also in roles of Hunter or Tank I like to mark which mean i’m lead. I have a low tolerance for stupidity. I have and will continue to warn some once before I boot them for trying to be #1 on the dmg meter and pulling aggro. I hate high repair bills because some kids (and there is not a age limit on that) want to see who’s epeen is bigger. I will gladly pay a 25g repair bill for new content progress but not for stupidity.


  15. Man, I love this post. Being high up on the damage meter is fun and I’ll admit that when I’m playing on my Hunter I DO like to see myself high up there, but not at the cost of being a crappy Hunter, pulling aggro, and not being able to trap.That said, a few days ago I was in a BM PUG and a rogue was swearing that I should be on adds and not dps’ing the elites on each wave because he’d easily out dps me. I sincerely wanted a damage meter that run just to shut him up.


  16. In the same line of thought as Phaelia, I think the tools are what they are and they can be horribly misused by anyone. Damage meters (most variants) are great to use as a spot check but not a true analysis of the damage done. When my previous guild were running SSC/TK we had started to use WOW Web Stats (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/) which is a very awesome tool to analyze not only amount of damage done but also can be used to help see if there are any weak links where you as guild can help gear up (you can see what is weak about that weak link as well, not getting hit in or not criting enough, etc…). Another kewl thing about this analysis tool, it is not an addon. Instead it uses your combat log which is part of Blizzard’s existing tool. The more combat logs you have, from more ppl, to correlate the numbers then the more precise the analysis.


  17. as a hunter every time i go to BM i end up on adds and i suck at it….the one at a time is easy but on the 3 flying 1 or 2 get past me unless i multi shot them and pull them to me and i start taking damage and the healer has to heal me…..as for damage meters unless im doing a lot of trapping if im not in the top 3 im not doing my job…but even when im trapping i can keep it around 3rd or 4th. most of the time any ground i loose on meter wile trapping i gain on bosses were i can open up and do some DPS but i haven’t been to kara yet so i dont know any thing about it in there….i use it as a tool the only time i ever link it is if someone asks me to other wise its to help me be a better hunter just like in BG on my 19 hunter i try to be in the top 3 unless i go for the flag instead of killing everything i see….


  18. I do feel your wrath on thos dumbasses that do that. I for one really just use the damage meter just for my own personal progress, and not to see who is high up and “Best” because I myself am a Feral Dr00d. But lately, because of those damage meter punk buffs, WoW has become less fun, and part of the reason I stopped for 5 months. But im back now and I don’t run into them now that i never pug anything.


  19. Great post. I don’t mean to troll here but if you’re hunters’ excuse for pitiful damage is because they were CCing then you need new hunters. The beauty of the hunter’s CC is that we DON’T have to stop our DPS to apply it. It only consumes one of our precious GCDs, that’s it. Have them watch some videos on chain trapping. The way a hunter is built they should be able to CC AND push the their threat to the very limits because we can FD and scrap all that threat.


  20. I guess I’m one of the few rogues that actually uses the damage meter for the right reasons. Meters like SWStats, which breaks down your damage done into individual talents (Normal, Backstab, poisons, etc.), are an invaluable tool in fine-tuning your spec to do the most efficient damage possible. I’ll admit that it’s a huge rush to link it to guild after a Kara run with me sitting in the #1 spot over the Mages and all their AoE damage, but too many DPS classes think that that’s their only job in a raid. Keep in mind that stuns, traps, Shackles, etc, are far more valuable to the raid as a whole than just the amount of damage you put out.On the other hand, as Rogue Class Leader for my guild, it also helps me figure out when I need to step in and work with a new rogue that puts out so little damage that they’re actually hurting the raid….without using stuns at all.As far as hunters go, though, I’ve never seen one do a whole helluva lot of damage in a raid. One of our best-geared MM hunters is usually in the bottom 3 of the DPS classes. Misdirect, traps, and their other CC-ish shots MORE than make up for it, though. He’s also ALWAYS the top DPS in battlegrounds, and I can’t live without him in any of my arena teams.


  21. Damage Meters are the worst plugin ever… I could try to describe situations but I’d have to start my own blog against damage meters to list them all.Suffice it to say… I have feral druid friends that I ask to offtank occasionally and the poor offtank gets flamed to no end because they do less DPS than my bear… even though their presence makes the instance go so much smoother. Just makes me sad.The best heroic I was ever in had two prot pallies and no main tank. off Tanks = reliable CC > big DPS.But trying to convince DPS whores and their DM plugins to believe that..? You’d have better luck trying to talk goblins out of their gold…


  22. I used to raid as a resto druid before 2.0 and healing meters sucked. Only one druid HOT could be up on a target and that druid’s healing meter would be through the roof. They actually told other druids in my old guild they were not pulling their weight. bah.I raid as a warlock now and I like recount. I have 5 or so dots I put up on targets, recount will tell me which ones are doing different percentages of damage. Doing different rotations of dots/using a different curse sometimes makes a bit of difference.It would be good to analyse cat damage – how much comes from bleeds dots, how much comes from shredding vs rip etc. Just to refine your play-style.Using them as an epeen tool is a bit stupid, some fights are melee friendly, some aoe caster friendly. Some fights you have to run around doing things other than DPS.Nice blog bear!


  23. I’ve seen this happening too, unfortunately. The deal is a rogue was comparing his damage with a hunter 3 levels under his and he was just shoving it in his face, i kicked him out of the group and got a replacement. i don’t support this kind of attitude. As a bear tank i tell my group that attacking my target will guarantee us smooth run, and when one stupid shaman was trying to be a hero in order to mak e more dps and agroed 2 mobs, i warned him once, then let him die every time he did it, and believe me it works. he hates me, but i hate him too, so it doesnt matter…


  24. My main is a warlock. If I’m in a 5 man, I expect to be #1 on the DPS meter (maybe 2nd, but not usually). If I’m in a 10-man, I expect to be #1-3. If I’m in a 25-man, I’m in the top 10.

    I use DPS meters was a way of monitoring myself. If I’m not up there, then it’s one of two things: 1: the people ahead of me are out-gearing me or 2: I’m off my game. (With the caveat of situational DPS — the last boss in ZA for instance has an entire phase where magic can’t really be used, etc.)

    However, I also have tanks and I know how frustrating it is to be running after mobs, especially because this usually means that once the over-eager-DPS is dead, the healer is targetted next, for having tried to keep the stupid-head alive. And as a tank, I don’t have good hold on aggro, due to rage issues. You know how it is. 😛

    So, I actually have a game I play with myself. I run both Omen and a Damage Meter. My game is to do AS MUCH damage as I possibly can while NOT pulling aggro off of the tank. What this means, is that my omen is consistently flashing ‘You have passed 90% aggro’, but I’m not pulling aggro from the tank.

    I also tend to have my damage meter set on DPS, not Damage. The DPS output I do to me is far more important than my overall damage. If my DPS is low, my overall damage will be low.

    I tend to run with the same people on a regular basis, so I typically know how much damage I can put out there before I risk yanking it off of my tank. BUT, my regular tank has also told me that running with me has improved his tanking ability, because I force him to DO better and be more than he would have been if I wasn’t pushing myself, too. 🙂

    So.. it can be a curse, but more often, I’d say it’s a bonus and a tool. Provided you don’t have a ‘tool’ using it. 😛


  25. I use swstats for reading damage, but the nice thing is that only a raid leader can post results, so you don’t have to worry about the jerk who spams results after every trash pull.


  26. @That said, a few days ago I was in a BM PUG and a rogue was swearing that I should be on adds and not dps’ing the elites on each wave because he’d easily out dps me. I sincerely wanted a damage meter that run just to shut him up.

    In this case, he was right. I consider myself a pretty decent rogue and I’ve tried many times to take the adds in BM. It’s damn near impossible as a melee dps’er to handle them all. As a hunter you can keep them off that shield and keep moving while killing them and they’re not killing you. 🙂 I have to stand their and eat their damage after I chase them all over hell’s creation while I kill them, which makes the healer waste mana healing me. OR I could be beating the hell out of that elite and not taking any damage at all that my own bandages can take care of. While you can pull those mobs off the shield from range AND stay out of range of the meanest ones with your pet. It just makes sense.


  27. Redneckizm, 70 Hunter, of Hakkar

    I stumbled upon your site by accident and found myself here for Hours… Thanks, it’s awesome! but I have to put my 2cp’s in on this topic.

    [quote]Damage meters aren’t just the ignorant redneck stepchild of Threatmeters… they are the tools of epeening. They are the spawn of the demons if used improperly and should be used only by people that know what the frack they’re doing. [/quote]


    I quit relying upon others to post RECOUNT after a Raid/Boss fight and D/L it myself. I am a Hunter Class Leader for my Guild and this is a great evaluation tool like somebody else said ^ there. I silently watch the recount meters and evaluate what each person on the chart is doing. I also used it to evaluate my own performance. In the 10-25 man’s I am “Supposed” to be 3rd-5th… I am “Supposed” to be behind the Rogues, Warlocks, Mages and Shammy’s. When I am higher… we have Problems. I Compare it to my Fellow Hunters, Each of our DPS varies from out Talent Tree and Raid responsibilities. A Surv Hunter will consistently pull 150-200 DPS LESS than me (Marks) but he is an invaluable raid asset. He has longer trap durations and “Expose Weakness”. While he leads trapping duties, I’m throwing MD on the Tank and burning off DPS! But without his 33 Sec trap vs my 20 Sec trap and without his Expose Weakness the raid wouldn’t run as smoothly!

    I don’t see the Damage meter as being Flawed when applied with the type of Fight that just occurred. It’s up to the “Responsible User” to evaluate the Data to make a Determination.

    HKM Fight… Another Hunter and I have to bounce Kiggler back and forth until he comes up on the Kill Order… When you are Poly’d your DPS = 0. My “Normal” Avg DPS runs between 775-825… the HKM Fight DPS is usually about 400. When we get to Gruul if I exceed 825 i’m the one that is face first eating dirt with 0 DPS.
    Kara.. Attuneman Fight… Basic “Tank&Spank” Rogues are usually #1 and they Should be, They get the oppurtunity to stand behind him and Slice & Dice thier way to #1… Now compare that to the rest of the Kara Fights, Rogues can’t stand in Maiden’s Holy Fire or Prince’s Shadow Nova and dish out damage and they do a lot of “Running DPS” on Curator’s Balls. So when the epeen Rogue is gloating over his 1100 DPS Attuneman Fight…. Ask him what his DPS was when he stood in Maiden’s Holy Fire too long and was drooling on the Marble Floor.

    Recount is a great Evaluation Tool, just like WWS. When used Responsibly it really helps better yourself and your own Raid contribution. If you track the individual fights and the History and look at the “Big Picture” of everything else that is happening you will know where your DPS should be with individual battles. Use it to compare yourself to same Class/Spec and Geared companions, not against the whole raid group. That is the Pride Checker when you see what the other person is doing that you are not. Raids are cooperative battles, not an epeen contest! Otherwise you would have raid groups consisting of only 1 class! Hmm.. What’s the Defense rating of Rogue Leather? it’s about as high as the Defense Rating of Hunter’s Mail!

    I have used it long enough to find out by Trial and Error (and repair bills) How/When I can Blow all my trinkets without pulling aggro. Experience (and Omen/KTM) will let you know how much you can dish out without pulling aggro.

    Recount was created to be an EVALUATION tool… not an EPEENer tool! But it does make for some good razzing amongst friends & guildies!

    I did learn that Drums of Battle & Rapid Fire combined gives me 1175 DPS against Nolarakk and it’s a BAAAD thing when I had a 3 Crit Combo and was already had 70% of the TPS and Feign was on CD 😦


  28. Wow, I really expected there to be more tanks chiming in on this XD. That being said, BAD BBBB tyour website eats way to much of my time now. /LOL I totally agree about the epeening of damage meters. Try having a melee dps raid leader who thinks he can tank prince as fury for long enough that the tank can get him back off of him /no.

    Back to teh value of teh tool. (couldn’t help myself) I am glad to see people talking about using the tool for evaluation. I myself am a class leader and regularly use the tool to guage the performance, shot rotations, miss rates, and general effectiveness of my co-huntards. I have been trying to teach them to “stay the hell off the treat meter.” By the light L2FD, L2MD, L2pot early, learn when to slow dps, learn when to blow everything and go all out. These are valuable raid abilities to maximize your effectiveness and value to the raid. The hunters in our guild are some of the best geared members I expect them to be high on the damage done chart for boses, but on trash I would much rather see effective CC.

    At the end of the day, much evil can come. But so much good can too. Use the tools wisely and have fun, don’t wory about how big your epeen is. If you have to go do some arenas and get it out of your system.

    As for heals, as long as they are not overhealing till they OOM, I would much rather have a overhealed raid than a dead one. Let them whisper among themselves about effective healing and gross heals.


  29. Recount.

    I use this Damage Meter, but it is so much more. I use it to track CC breakers, whispering them and tell em to watch their , and to determine how much tps i can gen to give dps ample time to burn the mob to the ground. Even had a “huntard” pull aggro from me in heroic SP tonight, as he was focuses intently on his meter, throwing out massive aggro shots before I even attacked a mob. -.-

    Let the morons show their damage meters with pride, as long as they do not mistake the threat meter for the damage meter. I will give them one warning, then stop taunting a mob until it oneshots them, then go back to burning it down.

    This being said, I am a decently geared feral tank, 32k armor, Over 50% combat dodge, and constantly score 3-5 on damage meter, which shows, hell, I can gen threat like a mofo 😛

    Good Hunting and Good Luck.


  30. best compliment i ever received from a pug’d heroic (mech). i was kitty this run and the healer at the end whispered the damage meter to me and said “can i add you to friends not because you were no. 1 on damage meter (i was) but because you were the only dps not pulling aggro”.
    i have never installed a damage meter because of the people BBB is complaining about. i do love being no.1 in raids when i am kitty but it isn’t important. maximising dps is important only after the following are true…
    1. your CC targets are cc’d.
    2. you are not pulling threat.
    3.as a feral: innervate, battle rez and emergency off-tank roles taken care of.
    raw damage meters fail to reflect these more important aspects and in fact discoarage people from doing these aspects of their role well.
    so amen BBB.
    finally remember damage meters can be fun. My GL (prot pally) and i were doing normal bot for a new guildy and we turned what could have been a boring hour into fun by having a dps race. he pulled whole rooms at a time , i have never seen so many mobs pulled at once. he almost won too he was 3000 ahead when we pulled warp splinter.
    really finally this time… if you have to boast about your damage meter ranking after a run look at my 3 points above and if you failed in any of those areas your damage output is LESS impressive and you would be better off apologising for your playing to the dps meter and not playing to your role in the group.


  31. I think damage meters are great when used by the right people. I’m a shadowpriest and I don’t ever expect to top the dps charts, but there are dps targets that we can set for ourselves to ensure that plenty of mana is returned to the group. They help me make sure I’m refreshing my dots properly and using mind blast/sw:d whenever they are available to maximize dps.

    The bad experiences I have had with people using damage meters happens in PuGs, where all too frequently we get a dps class (usually a mage, but yesterday it was a boomkin) who loves to spam those meters after every trash pull, kill every critter in the game and of course, get aggro on just about every pull. Interestingly enough, these idiots fail to reset their meters so they’ll spam some ridiculously high number (“zomg i did 80k damage after first pull I r l33t!!!”). Obviously you need enough dps so that dungeons don’t take ten hours to finish, but you also can’t finish if the entire party is dead.


  32. I use Recount, which is more than just a damage meter, and is an incredibly useful tool. But even if we’re talking about straight damage meters, people running damage meters for themselves can be a great aid to their personal performance. I know a little bit of competition helps keep me on my toes and performing my best, so I like to keep an eye on the meters when I’m DPSing–but of course, I pay even more attention to my threat meter!

    My pet peeve is people who join PUGs, blast the hell out of the mobs, pull aggro left and right, and then ask in party chat, “Anyone have damage meters?” Those people are clearly only looking to have their e-peen stroked, and I never, ever post meters for them. If they really cared about their performance and not their e-peen, they’d be running their own damn meters.


  33. I love this post. Damage meters are a big reason I quit tanking. I had it up to my eyeballs with awful runs, having some rouge or mage rip aggro over and over, having to corpse run all the way back and the first thing they say is “want to see the damage meter”? NO! They will throw it up anyway and proudly proclaim they are #1. I say winner gets to pay everyone’s repair bills. And it IS sad, because I was in a guild who would use it on raids for the purpose of offering constructive criticism to the dps’ers. It wasn’t posted in party, it would be discretely whispered to the player in question. “Hey, your dps is too low, you need to pick it up a bit.” That is what they are good for! Otherwise they just let me know who to put on my “people to never run with again” list.


  34. Great post on the damage meter problem, i just want to add a tiny little bit to Dps Meter hate.

    I was pugging heroic culling of strathholme, and got 4 at the damage meter overall, why? I am a MM hunter i dont do burst damage but steady damage in longer fights. So the survival hunter that got a pretty good burst damage fired on every zombie he could see drew aggro from tank and so on. So at the end he showed the dps meter i got a long version of why i suck so badly.

    And then i tell him please link the boss fights where i was way higher than him, “Overall data is all that counts” came from the hunter then i had a long declaration why i ended so low on overall data and such. So at the end he ended up on my “never to run with list”

    Anyways great post


  35. I like to know how I am performing but the damagemeter figures is not always the best information you can get.

    The figures are of course interesting, but they are not everything, they are not enough, they dont give the whole picture.

    I sure want to know my own figures for my own improvement. That is the way a meter is best used. Not to be a besserwisser to other players.

    I am not interested in supervising other players and I dont comment on their performance. How others “should” play and how much damage they “should” do and so on is their own business.

    Some people seem to use the meter because they feel a need to win the “dps contest” they seem to think a race is. The wonderful thing is the meters tend to turn up in the partychat mostly from the player who is proud to top the list. Sometimes I wonder when no meter turns up: is that because people dont have meters or is it because they didnt top the meter ? Who knows.

    Others act like this. First boss is a nice clean kill and everyone is saying it is a perfect team. Next boss is a wipe … damagemeters are immediately used to control which players fault this was … the hunter who was told to do traps and the mage who was told to sheep are clearly the too bad players who made the party wipe, because they dont top the damagelist, it is there in the figures, no debate … the natural action is now of course to immediately say sorry, not enough damage done, you 2 are too bad, bye, kick and replace.

    Another measure of performande is to look at the consequences of runs I have done.

    First Run:
    I am a new 80 in the guild and suddenly one of the officers, a feral druid tank decides to do an heroic for shards and reputation. He invites my mage, and soon we have a party and enter the instance. I play it safe, consequently target same target as the tank, slows it down, then dps it with an eye on the treat, making sure to never pull too much aggro, all the time keeping the target slowed. Repeat on next target. I stay on a “safe” distance and need neraly no healing in all the run. If the tank wants some cc i do that, after checking which way the tank needs it done. It is a very good run, no problems and no wipes.

    Second Run:
    I am in a PUG. I play the same way as in the first run I described. It is a very good run. Everything works out fine. The tank is not complaining on me, nor is the healer. But. There is someone who uses a meter and discovers that I, the mage, who “should” top the damagemeter is not topping it … someone is “better” in terms of having made more damage… and points out to the party that I must be a “bad mage” because I dont top the list, like any mage “should”. This is said no matter there has been no problems at all with the run … perfect run and I had a nice, good feeling, but now I lose that feeling.

    Third Run: PUG again. I have had enough of being accused of being a bad mage who does too low damage in some other dps opinion. Now I will show people I can do damage … arcane power to push up my power , then precence of mind, which together makes for an empowered instant flamestrike AOE, and on top of that, with the over time damage from the flamestrike still going on, I cast a blizzard … ATTACKING YOU ! shines red on my screen and all the mobs charge for me, tank scrambling after them … but no worries, I cast mage invisibility which makes the mobs forget me and while I sneak away from them, invisible, they attack the healer instead …

    Result of the Third Run : Wipe, stunned compact silence on the party chat, kicked mage decides to never repeat this “top the meter show”

    The result of that first run by the way: next time I logged in something was wrong, because I could suddenly read the officer chat, and I was a newbie 80 and it was only 2 days after I joined and … a look in the guild log informed me I had been instantly promoted from newbie to officer by that tank from the first run


  36. I have gotta say, you have hit the nail on the head with this one 🙂
    There is this shaman in my guild, sometimes can pull aggro of the tank and then brags about his DPS and Damage.
    It gets annoying after the first 10 times though. But thankfully he doesn’t tell anyone his opinion.

    We used to have this hunter…He was the biggest jerk ever. We were in Naxxramas and he was telling the guys who were with us for a dire need of gear, that they needed to pick up their DPS or they should be kicked. So in return, being one fo teh healers i elt him die and made him run back I think I did that about 5 times that night hehe
    He never learned his lesson and later left us because we weren’t as l33t as him >.> (in his opinion of course)

    But on the contrary, The DPS/Damage/Healing meter can be helpful. I used ti to improve my healing and changed my spec. Now I’m the second best healer 🙂
    As you said it’s all about how a guild uses their meter
    .-= Moonlite´s last blog ..Introduction! =-.


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