Sidhe Devils first raid drama

Sidhe Devils has it’s first raid drama, now.

Although my guildmates probably don’t know it yet.

See, for the second week, I’m organizing a scheduled Saturday night Karazhan run. I’d like to make it a regular thing.

And I have a dilemma.


I have more people that want to go than I have spaces… but I don’t have enough to make two full runs.

I’m the guild leader and raid leader, so the responsibility is mine to do my best to ensure everyone has the opportunity to get in and have fun. I can’t ensure the reality of fun, but I’m supposed to get everyone the opportunity.

But how the hell are we going to pull this off?

One of the issues I’m wrestling with, is that most of the Sidhe Devils… not all, but most, are married couples. And so are most of our friends from other guilds. It just seemed to work out that way, I guess our ‘Real Life first’ policy must seem like an attractive environment to play in for couples or folks with families. 

What does that have to do with anything? 

Right now, I have 11 people that I know want to run Karazhan this Saturday. And each and every one is someone I enjoy playing with and want on the run. I can’t even exclude someone out of favoritism and nepotism, damnit.

But I’m going to HAVE to either have one person sit out entirely, or ask two people if they are each willing to sit out for half of the run and trade places halfway through.

And I am finding part of my decision-making process includes the knowledge that if I ask someone whose spouse is on the run to sit out, then they are NOT playing with their spouse… which sucks.

Although… if someone asked me to sit out but told me they wanted Cassie to run… my first thought is “Hey, I could listen in on vent and enjoy listening to them raid while playing my alt…”, so maybe it’s not that big a deal, but it still sucks to have to make the decision.

BUT… asking someone on the run who is single to sit out because I don’t want to break up a couple for the run is unfair to the single player.

“What, you want a spot on the run? Get your wife or significant other to play and your position will be more secure.” Yeah, that is SO not fair.

No, life is not fair. I know. But it’s still not right.

Cassie thinks the best solution isn’t to cut someone or ask people to sit part of the run out, but instead to expand. To make a second full run so everyone gets to have fun. She is the smart one in the family, after all.

But we don’t have enough people that have shown interest.

I put up an ‘express your interest in Karazhan’ thread in the Sidhe Devils forums to try and find more guildies that are wanting to go, but I’m not getting any other level 70s responding. Some folks still leveling are certainly interested once they get to 70, but right now, the existing guildies are either too busy, or tired of raiding, or prefer PvP, or, and this is what Cassie thinks, they just don’t visit the forums.

I only want people that are eager to see Karazhan along on these runs. I don’t want a single person to run that is only there to make the guild happy. But it does seem like we have a lot of people, and the flip side of the coin is, how many of those people think that they are being excluded from runs because they are not being asked to go?

If I don’t know you want to go, I put up a forum thread and you don’t respond to it, and I have a list of folks that have expressed their interest in going… guess who I ask first?

A lot of us in the guild DO have level 70 alts that COULD conceivably be part of a second group. That would let us technically do two Karazhan runs a week, with less than 20 actual players.

Off the top of my head, folks that have been interested in our Kara runs that have multiple characters;

  • I have two geared 70s. (Three 70s, just two that are actually well-geared).
  • Nasirah has two 70s.
  • Blusummers has three 70s.
  • Doodlebug has two 70s.

That’s 4 people that could, conceivably, take part in two runs each week.

But then we’re scheduling a ‘two raids a week’ raiding schedule for some players to double up on, which was a lot further than we were ever intending to go.

Hey. It’s the summer. I feel grateful I know as many folks as I do that are excited to go to Karazhan even once instead of going out to the beach for a picnic. 

But back to the point… how do you decide who goes on a single run, when you have too many sign up, but not enough for a second run? 

I’m afraid that if I ask the players themselves who would be willing to sit out, what I’m going to get are a whole bunch of nice people that start fighting over who gets to be the one to sit out so they don’t deprive someone else of a run. That puts the burden on them, and that seems pretty gutless to me.

I’m sure I’ll figure something out, just wanted to share the baby steps stress I’m feeling at the moment.

If you’re in the Sidhe Devils and reading this… if you ARE interested in Karazhan on your 70, how about doing us all a favor and dropping into the forums and letting us know? Hmmm? If you never tell me you want to go, you won’t ever get asked. It’s getting a little late for a second run this week, but there is always next week to plan for.


25 thoughts on “Sidhe Devils first raid drama

  1. Have you considered the Karazhan Invite List (KIL) method? I wrote up a thread about this on my old guild’s forums when we had problems with deciding who would go when. Essentially, you setup a role rotation that guarantees that each person has a slot for raiding. It also benefitted people who had irregular schedules and could only get into the raid maybe once every couple of weeks; since they were probably rotated to the top of their respective lists while they were absent, it meant that they had priority on a raid when they were available.

    KIL is good until you snag enough people for that second raid.

    Despite the large interest that we had in raiding, I think that we ended up only employing the list once; my guild was a lot of talk and people who signed up didn’t show up and people that showed up often didn’t show up and it was just a big Charlie Foxtrot at times.


  2. Been there, still there.
    Kara speed-run last night (well, 3 hrs is speedy when compared to 7 hrs), too many sign-ups for raid, all invited into the raid & then:
    tanks roll – top 2 taken
    healers roll – top 2 taken
    dps roll – top 6 taken
    And as stated by many here, those missing out get first-bite next time.

    We find we have everyone willing to sit out if the RL asks for volunteers, rolling takes it out of everyones hands.


  3. I have the solution… I will log my “visiting” Wildhermit toon on your server on raid night and help out. I will hang out with the person that gets the short stick and amaze them with my wit…..

    On a lesser note, have been there BBB. My horde guild started rotating on a first come first server basis. There is no perfect solution though, so I feel for you man. From what little I “know” of you guys though I do not see this as a source of drama for your guild. Stressful for you, and painful, but your group of guys and gals will be cool.


  4. Lol… we got it taken care of for this run… in fact, this has turned into a big positive by taking it into the guild forums, and setting up rolling sign ups to get everyone involved.

    We ought to have two teams very soon, two very capable teams.

    Yeah, I have no problem in sitting one out. I’ve thought about it for this run, but there are a few reasons I haven’t gone there yet. First is that half of the current run are my friends from outside the guild. I’m still kind of the liaison bringing them on board. Second is that I’m still the raid leader at this time, this is only our second non-PUG run. 🙂 And third is that I am one of our top three DPS on Windburn, and our best Prince tank at this time, so I do think it adds some extra cushion when I come.

    I think from the response I’m seeing on our forums, we’re going pretty well. Having it all get out in the open is bringing more people into the forums to talk it over. We’re good.


  5. Do you have the + necessary to make one (or both) a short raid? That is, run it as 9, 8, or (for the true madhouse) 5 players? Yes, I know, only 11 signed up, but I’m looking at adding players.

    There are fools among us – I used to be one – who will run an instance below level if it can be made challenging. Short-manning is the main way, though there might be others. So, do you have five “uber” players willing to take the dare of 5+1 manning Kara?

    (It’s an option. As you said, making someone sit out sucks.)


  6. Would it be possible for you to sit out this run? In other words, a) are you willing to give your spot to someone else, and b) is there someone else that is capable of successfully leading the run?

    Yeah, it would be a bummer because you don’t get to go. BUT, you would show that it obviously wasn’t a matter of favoritism, and your willingness to put your guildmates’ happiness before your own (under certain circumstances). Just an idea. 🙂


  7. I don’t know if any one mentioned possibly taking the overflow that are not allowed to go to Kara and setting them up with a run with another Guild. For instance Masons and CCI often share members in order to make sure everyone gets a chance to run for gear and badges. However sometimes the numbers just don’t work out so the overflow will go run a heroic together thus getting badges and building a bond with your fellow mates.

    I am one of those people who need a 12 step program for alts I love them all and play them all except for one class. So if I get to go OT, or DPS for Kara I am a happy guy. If I get to take my Alt Shammy to off heal even better. But if I don’t I sit drooling over which to play, Its like a game show, should I choose the lock, the shadow priest, the hunter or the Twink Rouge. We will always have plenty of other fun stuff to do so if we are asked to sit out it shouldn’t be an epic event.



  8. battle to the DEATH!…2 toons enter..1 toon leaves!!!

    All I can recommend is just plain and simple…ask…who can share…who will sit out…

    But thats why you are the boss…you get the hard decisions.

    *smile* Buck-up buck-a-roo


  9. The great thing with kara is that you will be running it for a long time. Many months later you will look around and remember you are still having the same issues you did when you first started.

    As evryone else has stated – get your class make up first. We started with 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps to ensure we had healing covered. Priests are great for the shackles in the first half of kara but you can get by without.

    Just keep everyone on the same page and if someone doesnt run one week – do your best to get them in the next week. Swapping up groups mid run works but this extends the time of your raid because unless you have a lock to summon people in or people are parked outside, this is a huge waste of time. Kara is long enough already – 3+ hours in is still a long time for an instance.

    Multiple kara groups is technically challenging unless you definitely have a core group of tanks/healers that can be relied upon. I wouldnt recommend it when you are just starting. As with all scheduling nightmares, 2 groups (or the 3 we’re working on now) is hit or miss and depends on dedication of your raiders.

    just my 2 cents from going through the same thing months ago with my guild.


  10. Why not swap out one person on basically every boss? That way no one really loses much in the way of badges, no one is hurt by having to sit for very long, and people can ask to be in on specific fights to try and get gear that’ll be most useful for them. Shouldn’t be too painful for the couples to miss out on stuff. You obviously can’t do that for everything in there depending on who you have, but I could easily see something like 2 tanks, 6 DPS and 3 healers dropping one of each on all sorts of encounters/trash. Don’t need any tanks for Aran, don’t need as many healers for Moroes, etc.


  11. If you think the problem is people not knowing about it being on the forums because they don’t check in. You may want to put it in the Guild Announcement that you are looking for sign ups for kara. Then people have no excuse that they didn’t know.

    Check to see what the gear needs are of the people going in. If someone only needs upgrades from later half and someone else from early on then your problem can be solved there making everyone happy.


  12. my guild will occasionally have a B group that doesn’t have enough for a second kara group run a few heroics instead. after a while youll get people who no longer need kara drops and just want badges, so the heroic group will race the kara group to see who can get the most badges in the same amount of time.


  13. I know where you’re coming from, because that’s the dilemma my partner and I are facing every raid. We are the guild’s only couple, and we are co-raid leaders. Basically, we schedule for success, and the ones that have to sit out have a guaranteed slot the next raid. So far it’s worked alright for us, there’s been very little drama, as far as we can tell.

    My partner keeps an attendance spreadsheet, to make sure the distribution of slots is fair, and we’re trying to set a good example by regularly having one of us two sit out.


  14. I think the best way boss…ask for a volunteer to sit out. Plenty of people in the Devils will step up, I assure you.

    Look at it this way..Kara isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. There will be plenty of other runs. Maybe institute that a volunteer to sit on the bench this time gets the first invite on the next run kind of policy thing.

    I know that I would gladly give up my spot on a run to someone who A. hadn’t been there before… B. needed the gear more than I do… or C. the riad needed the spot for another class to make it a successful run. I’m sure others in SD would do the same. We all understand the charter and agreed to it so while we’d all like to go..we’re not going to freak out or throw hissy fits if we can’t….

    Expect for Rysterranch! That dude is such a crybaby! 😉 LOL


  15. We have a similar issue, in that we want to run 2 groups, but dont quite have enough people (well, not enough tanks & healers). So we switch individuals in and out for particular fights, depending on what gear drops they’re interested in; we dont make priority choices based upon marital status, and some people simply dont get to come.

    But yeah, everyone has to be flexible to some degree, and you make those calls. Feelings may get hurt – but individual feelings are not so important when you’re trying to accomplish a group activity.

    Btw, just for the record you dont HAVE to have a warlock for Illhoof 🙂 We’ve done it without. Sometimes its more fun to try something different.


  16. Awww Bear, I get were you are coming from. Same thing happens in my guild and we a number of couples. What we have done, is what everyone has said in the comments before, we fill the raid with what we need to make it work.

    The way to get an idea is to have them sign up first. When raid time comes you may be surprised to see not everyone who signed up showed. Look at who you have and take what you need.

    Another important thing is to talk to your guild. Let them know what is going on and if they have suggestions. You may see, that like Doodle, they are willing to sit it out, or pug with another group. Sometimes, like my guys have done, they start a second run with alts. Most of the couples I have met, don’t have a problem with one raiding and the other doing something else. Yes, it is great to play with your partner, but sometimes it isn’t possible. And it will be okay. If it isn’t okay, they should tell you and then you will know.

    Get them on vent and just hash it out. It will be fine and they will understand. After all, they are with you because you all have a great environment and friendly virtual home. They won’t take it personal if you discuss it openly with them.

    And if they do, well…then maybe this is the place for them. The good of the group first, personal interests second.


  17. As said before, fill the raid to win first. If then you end up having to choose between two healers…or two dps who are essentially the same, you’re just going to have to make the tough call. If the people who signed up are as nice and understanding as you say they are, they will understand. Maybe tell the person who is left out that he/she will get a definite spot in next weeks run? And set up a rotation like that. Or if you have a very well geared player who needs gear from only the 2nd half of kara and a not so geared player who needs gear from the first half, you may be able to set up a switcheroo, since that would benefit them both.


  18. Boy do I ever know where you’re coming from, I was Raid-Scheduler in my guild for a while and it was tough because all the 70s in my guild had schedules COMPLETELY different from each other. My big dilemma was trying to change up the schedule every week so everybody would get a chance to go, and of course, that usually meant that only 4 or 5 max of the 20-ish 70s in our guild could go each time and we had to scramble to fill slots. Tooooough lemme tell ya.

    Of course, we would also have issues where too many tanks would want to go or too many healers, though as of late we haven’t had that problem… too much burnout overall.


  19. New to your blog and so far I’m loving it, keep up the good work!

    I don’t know what kind of leadership style you have in your guild, but as you’ve stated that as the GL and RL it’s your responsibility to make sure things work, I’m going to go ahead and assume that you have at least some dictatorial powers in your grasp.

    So…you make the call. Fill the raid with what you need to be successful. If you are dead set on having a warlock for Illhoof (which you should be imo), then you need to make sure you have one. Even if it means not inviting your best friend’s wife b/c it’s the “single guy” that has the lock and not her.

    Good of the many (guild, raid, crew of the NCC-1701D, etc) over the good of the few. As a former guild and raid leader, it was a pain trying to figure out who to take when we over booked for Kara. I (with the help of whatever other officer/well-respected player was there) had to make some tough calls on who’s feelings to hurt. We just had to do what was best for the group.

    Of course, you could take the route of just going with the two groups and pug the last three people you need for the second (depending on what role you need…I don’t like to pug MTs). Saturdays are pretty good go finding people wanting to hit up Kara…at least on Hellscream-Alliance.

    ~Khyliegh (named mah toon after me gorgeous little girl :D)


  20. Looks like problem solved, but our guild came up with a list – everyone is on it and it determines priority – if you sign up and show up but don’t make it in the 10, you go to top of list and are for sure in next time. Sign up order doesn’t matter, since we are casual and didn’t want people having to rush to get online to sign-up. It has worked out great for us. For a while we did reserve spots for the GL, MT & MH.


  21. The alliance I raid with has signups on one guild’s forums, and then they fill the raid to succeed (2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 DPS). They try bring a mix of classes so loot that drops is likely to find owners, rather than get DE-ed. While trying to keep couples together is nice, I think getting to have fun with 9 friends will reduce the angst about not having your SO by your side. For this reason I would not prioritize the couples over the singles.

    One element that might help is to write down the overflow from one week, and give those people priority the next week if you have 2 of the same class sign up. This makes sure that you don’t have one person get dejected because they showed up and got left 3 weeks in a row.

    The last thing I would say is write down your prioritization rules and post them, so everyone understands what they are. This should help avoid drama about selection. I would also document any rules you might have about when a new 70 is “Geared Enough” to go to Karazhan. These rules can change as the raid average gear level and experience goes up and can support a lowbie or 2.


  22. PS: “what I’m going to get are a whole bunch of nice people that start fighting over who gets to be the one to sit out so they don’t deprive someone else of a run”

    I WIN.


  23. For the record: I am completely and totally fine with always sitting out, or being asked to sit out. Doozie is committed to 3-hour speed clears and I can always PuG with Doodlebug. I hate Lollerzhan and only sign up because I’m a healer… but we are getting more healing-types leveled now, so it gives me an out. ^_^


  24. The policy we always used was:

    1.) First, fill the raid in a way which will allow it to succeed. (I.e. make sure you have healers and tanks, make exceptions if someone’s REALLY not ready for a particular raid) Succeed here means achieve whatever goal you have set-out: fun, loots, progression, bad sexual innuendo, whatever.

    2.) Go by first-come-first-served for the other signups. Go in signup order, but if that person is ‘late’ to the raid move on to the next person.

    3.) If you’re full and more people really, really want in, ask if there are any volunteers who might step-out for a run. Odds are good 1 or more people need to wash the dog (or something) and would be happy to sit-out for a night if you can fill their slot.

    4.) Lastly, we’ve NEVER had everyone who signed-up actually show-up at raid-time, so I’d budget a bit of headroom for that too.


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