Feral Druid level 80 Hit, Expertise and Dodge

It’s that time again.

Level 80 brings with it revised ability and combat statistics. And now that there are folks nearing (or at) level 80, it’s time to lay down the new law.

I’m going to do my damndest to make this as clear as possible.

Level 80 Hit

At level 70; 15.76923275 Hit Rating = +1% Hit.
At level 80; 32.78998947 Hit Rating = +1% Hit.

Druids are, always, at maximum Weapon Skill in forms. At level 80; Weapon Skill = 400. NPC mobs are always at max Defense Skill per level. This means that, unlike other classes, we do not have to account for varying levels of Weapon Skill at level.

The base chance to miss a target when both attacker and defender are the same level is 5%. (400 Weapon Skill vs 400 Defense Skill)

If the defender is 3 levels higher (such as a level 83 raid boss with 415 Defense Skill) the base chance for us to miss increases to 8%.

At level 70, we needed 141.921 (effectively 142) Hit Rating to overcome that 8% chance to miss.

At level 80, we NOW need 262.32 (effectively 263) Hit Rating to overcome a 8% chance to miss.

Cut to the chase: New level 80 Feral Druid Hit Rating Cap: 263

Level 80 Expertise

I have found a correction to my original Expertise Parry information here at Elitist Jerks, which I will incorporate into my edit.

At level 80, a level 83 raid boss has a 6.5% chance to Dodge attacks from all directions, and a 16% chance to Parry attacks from a 180° arc to the bosses’ front.

10 Expertise = -2.5% to enemy chance to Parry and Dodge, regardless of level.
4 Expertise = -1%.

The Talent Primal Precision (2/2) grants 10 Expertise/ -2.5% to enemy Parry / Dodge.

Gear does not have Expertise. Gear has Expertise Rating.

At level 70; 15.76923275 Expertise Rating = 4 Expertise / -1% Parry / Dodge.
At level 80; 32.78998947 Expertise Rating = 4 Expertise / -1% Parry / Dodge.

With Primal Precision (2/2), we need to overcome 4% enemy chance to Parry / Dodge.

At level 80, with Primal Precision (2/2), we now need 131.15995788 (132 effective) Expertise Rating to eliminate enemy Dodge.
At level 80, with Primal Precision (2/2), tanking Bears can now use up to 442.664857845 (443 effective) Expertise Rating to eliminate enemy Parry.

Cut to the chase: New Feral Druid Expertise Rating Cap: 132 Kitties, 443 Bear Tanks.

**Level 80 Dodge**

The big one for Feral Druids that intend to tank; Dodge.

A lot of factors are involved in determining our actual chance to Dodge.

I will briefly describe each factor that is involved, before getting into how to apply them all for a total result.

Base Dodge is different for each class. It is the base chance a character has, standing naked without consideration for Talents or Racial abilities,  to Dodge an incoming attack.

Since Patch 3.0.1, level 80 Druids have a Base Dodge of 4.951.

Agility to Dodge ratio. How many points of pure Agility it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

At level 70; 14.7059 Agility = 1% Dodge.
At level 80; 41.6667 Agility = 1% Dodge.

Dodge Rating to Dodge ratio. How many points of Dodge Rating it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

At level 70; 18.92307854 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge.
At level 80; 39.34798813 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge.

Defense Rating to Dodge ratio. How many points of Defense Rating it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

Some brief background. Defense Rating adds to Defense Skill. The following data assumes that you are at level 80, and have maxed your Defense Skill to 400. Defense Rating adds to your chance to Dodge, Block, Parry and avoid being struck by Critical Blows. Bear tanks cannot Block or Parry. With Survival of the Fittest (3/3) Bear Tanks cannot be struck by Critical Blows from a level 83 raid boss. We therefore will ONLY discuss the benefits of Defense Rating in terms of bonus to Dodge.

25 Defense Skill provides +1% Dodge.
1 Defense Skill provides +0.04% Dodge.

At level 70; 2.365385056 Defense Rating = 1 Defense Skill.
At level 80; 4.918498039 Defense Rating = 1 Defense Skill.

At level 80, it therefore takes 122.962450975 (123 effective) Defense Rating to achieve +1% Dodge.

Warning! Only whole values of Defense Skill are applied. The value of Defense Rating is NOT rounded up to the next whole Defense Skill.

An example;
You have 19 Defense Rating. 19 Defense Rating / 4.918498039 = 3.862 Defense Skill = 3 Defense Skill. 3 Defense Skill = 0.12% chance to Dodge.

You have 20 Defense Rating. 20 Defense Rating / 4.918498039 = 4.066 Defense Skill = 4 Defense Skill. 4 Defense Skill = 0.16% chance to Dodge.

Talents. Feral Druids have two Talents that directly increase Dodge.

Feral Swiftness (2/2) increases chance to Dodge +4%.
Natural Reaction (3/3) increases chance to Dodge +6%.

Racials. Night Elf Druids no longer get a 1% chance to Dodge from Swiftness. The Night Elf Racial was changed to instead give +2% chance to be missed.

When computing your Dodge%, please take this into account. Note that Night Elves get +2% Miss, but do not factor it into your Dodge.

This is a buff, with some consequences. Lemme sum up;

It has gone from +1% Dodge to +2% Miss, and 1% Miss has the same mitigation effect as 1% Dodge. So this is a nice increase. The significance of the change from Dodge to Miss is that Warrior effects that proc from the opponent Dodging, like Overpower, are not procced by misses. Likewise, the enemy Swing Timer is reset by Dodges… not by Misses. This means that a Night Elf gains 2% increased chance to miss over a Tauren, without incurring a corresponding increased Swing Timer reset chance. But it also means the +2% Miss does not help Druid Rage generation from Natural Reaction. So again, when you’re analyzing your Dodge%, and seeing how it therefore applies to Swing Timers and Rage generation, make a mental note that Quickness is good, but has limited effects.

Opponent Level Modifier. There is a Dodge difference due to Defense Skill vs Weapon Skill, when fighting higher level opponents. When a level 80 Druid fights a level 83 raid boss, you suffer a -.2% Dodge Penalty per level you are lower, due to your reduced base Defense Skill in comparison to the higher level Weapon Skill. So with your Defense of 400 vs Raid Boss Weapon Skill of 415, you suffer a total of -.6% Dodge due to the difference in levels.

How to apply all this to determine Total Dodge.

I have been asked to apply the Diminishing Returns rules to this, so that the final result you get will in fact be your correct Total Dodge. This is going to be miserable, but I’ll try to simplify this as much as I can.

Your Total Dodge consists of two different categories: Those stats affected by Diminishing Returns, and those that aren’t.

At this time, Base Dodge and Talents are unaffected by Diminishing Returns. Agility, Dodge Rating and Defense Rating ARE affected.  

So we have to split things up into two sections; Base, and Pre-DR.

Add up the Base stats; 

Base Dodge = 4.951
Feral Swiftness (2/2) = 4
Natural Reaction (3/3) = 6
Level difference from 83 raid boss = -.6

The total, 14.351, is our Feral Bear Dodge unaffected by Diminishing Returns.

Next, add up the Pre-DR stats.

Dodge from Agility = Your Agility from gear divided by 41.6667
Dodge from Dodge Rating = Your Dodge Rating divided by 39.34799
Dodge from Defense Rating = Your Defense Rating divided by 4.918498039, rounded down to the nearest whole number, and then the result multiplied by 0.04

We will call the total Pre-DR Dodge.

We will now work with your Pre-DR Dodge total to determine what the final value after Diminishing Returns will be.

The formula that Whitetooth derived that we will use is as follows;

Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / Pre-DR Dodge))

Your final Total Dodge after Diminishing Returns is;

14.351Dodge (After DR)

I so, so, so did not want to get into Diminishing Returns in this post. Sigh. I apologise for the pain. I really hope that it came across clearly.

I’m going to give you one example.
For the purpose of this example, I’m going to pretend that you do not have ANY Dodge Rating or Defense Rating. Only Agility added from equipped gear.

We start with 200 Agility. Our Pre-DR Dodge would be 4.799996%.
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / 4.799996))
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + 0.202500)
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / 0.211055
Dodge (After DR) = 4.738101%

200 Agility before DR, 4.799996% Dodge.
200 Agility after DR, 4.738101% Dodge.

We now increase it to 400 Agility. Our Pre-DR Dodge would be 9.599972%.
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / 9.599972))
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + 0.101253)
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / 0.109808
Dodge (After DR) = 9.106804%

400 Agility before DR, 9.599972% Dodge.
400 Agility after DR, 9.106804% Dodge.

Remember, after obtaining the Dodge (After DR) value, you still need to add 14.351 to it.

I’d like to thank the hard work of Whitetooth, creator of the RatingBuster addon who posted so much core data analysis at the Elitist Jerks website, the historical data at Wowwiki, and the insanely awesome folks at MMO Champion and Wowhead for giving me the tools for putting this post together.


121 thoughts on “Feral Druid level 80 Hit, Expertise and Dodge

  1. This post was excellent. That being said, I am confused about the dodge “cap”. What is our effective dodge cap? I’m hovering around 40% atm.


  2. I found this information very useful. i’ve been trying to work out the sweet spots for both kitty and bear. this information is helpful for guidance.

    Currently in Kitty:
    Attack Power: 6610
    Hit Rating: 303 (over by 8 but thats just the way the hit totals up for the items)
    Expertise: 196

    Can’t wait to test it all out next week in the raids. (Still suck at Trash clearing though, until 3.0.8 when we get kitty swipe. 🙂 )

    When I spec Tank… Bear Stats:
    Health: 31.9k
    Dodge: ~40.5%
    Armor: 30.6k

    After raid buffs, I’ve found Bear Tanking to be very viable. For example, Patchwerk in Naxxramas, often considered a DPS test for guilds…I’ve had a chance to watch the Hateful Strike tanks of all classes now – Pallies, Deathknights, Warriors and Bears – and running Deadlybossmods I watched the avoidance/mitigation, and although I don’t have any quantifiable stats on me right now, I felt Bears dealt with that role superbly. Obviously other fights lend themselves to other classes, but I’m happy nonetheless. 🙂


  3. So, based on the math in this post, here are some Graphs from Google Chart Server for Pre-DR Dodge contribution from Agility, Dodge Rating, and Defense Rating, and then a usefully-scaled graph to give a basic idea of how the Diminishing Returns work. The charts will be no more correct than the math in the original post!


  4. p.s. I also included infographics for the other 2 portions of this article. I poured some time into it and I’d like nothing more than for these illustrations to be included in the main article while they are still relevant! (hint hint) Just View Source on the link target above – you can copy & paste the urls from the link target’s source directly into the webpage here.
    Tim Heilman


  5. Hi,

    So I was tanking Gluth the other night and both tanks have to taunt off each other periodically. I noticed that about 3 times my taunt missed, Now my hit rating (21) is atrocious, however I got that minor glyph that increases your growl to hit by 8%. With my understanding of how much hit we need, 9%, That means that I should only have about 0.5% chance to miss. Was I just a victim of the RNG, or is there something fishing going on with Gluth, or my understanding of hit rating?

    armory link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Akama&n=Bludgeoness


  6. Ok, so after experimenting a little and seeing some of the feedback here as well as talking to some others here’s a PROPOSED min stat baseline to shoot for with pre-Naxx available gear. This is just an opinion of the min stats to shoot for and you should be able to fudge some of the numbers a little bit to your liking. I’m not being exact on the conversions because I’m mainly just proposing some thresholds to get to and exceed if possible. These numbers should make a bear tank viable for any encounter in the instance (minus any resistance requirements).

    Stam: 1500 (1700+ would be ideal)
    Armor: ~6000 (normal form)
    Dodge: 25% (normal form)
    (recommend ~750 agi and ~160 dodge rating. As bigbear showed, you get slightly more bonus to dodge from dodge rating than agi, but agi does help armor)
    Defense: 400 total (no extra def needed as long as you have full points in SoTF)
    Atk Pwr: ~1500 (normal form)
    (recommend shooting for ~350 str and ~760 attack power but the balance between the two isn’t really important)
    Hit Rtg: ~150 (the closer to 295.2 the better)
    Exp: 132 (more would help)

    Please feel free to correct me if any of these values seem incorrect to you as a baseline recommendation.


  7. In response to Blud, taunt counts as a spell – notice how you can’t use it while silenced. The hit cap for spells is something like 17%, so you would actually need maxed 2-handed melee hit rating (9%) in addition to the taunt glyph (8%) to reach the 17% hit you need for taunt to never miss. Running with a dranei and getting the extra 1% hit is always helpful as well.


  8. Thanks Alakandra. That makes more sense. My taunt rarely misses, but it does and it was puzzling. Hit rating is now my new must have stat. Raid buffed (10 mans) I sit at 40k health, 35k armor, 40-50% dodge. My dpsers are starting to be able to out threat me and that scares me. I can take hits from anything I’ve seen (which is every boss) so time to play with rawr and see where I can best sacrifice some mitigation for hit. Atm my healers love me and my dps do not. Trouble is, I haven’t seen much gear with any hit on it.


  9. well POOOOOOO

    Picked up my T7 chest and lost 50hit…this is stinky…pluses to my gear is 43K raid buffed and 38k armor before t7 …debating if I even want to use the set for tanking druid…think I will make t7 kitty

    Thanks for the insite!!


  10. Ok, I have maintanked everything but the eye so here’s what I’ve found

    My current stats are (and this is just what’s visible under defenses tab)

    Self buffed only

    Life – 39.5k
    Armor – 34.5k
    Expertise -26
    Hit – 111
    Dodge – 41%

    Raid buffed

    51k life
    35ish armor
    47% dodge

    I have never had any issues with having a lower hit. Healers love me because I’m so easy to heal, and if by chance something bad happens, we can always pop to 65k life to mitigate the difference till they catch up. Examples of that are Maexxna – I’ve noticed that when she webs the room when she enrages, more than half the time non druid tanks die. Dont know, but I’m never lacking for groups. the 26 expertise makes me undodgeable, and 111 hit seems to work just fine for me. I’ve almost never lost aggro to another class and I never use taunt.


  11. Small thing I learned the hard way yesterday. My guild was doing Naxx, I was off tanking, and we were fighting Gluth. It comes time to taunt, and my main tank gets this real nice add on message “Gluth is immune to my taunt, you’re on your own” :p

    Figured out today that you need at least 100 hit (e.g. 3%) to taunt Gluth. So watch out for that when taking the first steps in Naxx.


  12. Honestly this is the first time i’ve ever commented on a forum, but after seeing ur spreadsheet i just had to say (although i disagree in some areas) this is a very well constructed spreadsheet and i found it very useful in comparing it to what I have.


  13. Self buffed only

    Life – 39.5k
    Armor – 34.5k
    Expertise -26
    Hit – 111
    Dodge – 41%

    Jewel crafters get too much extra buffs from the profession 😦 I was wondering how he had such high stats BEFORE t7
    I am herbalism and alchemy much like many other druids and tbh I think the combat benefits are pathetic (a crappy heal and a slightly improved elixirs) compared with craft professions. Anybody who does jewelcrafting and leatherworking is completely imba 😮


  14. BigBearButt-

    The Hit mechanic is different per class. The 9% hit you have listed for druids is actually too high, its 8% for druids. Its listed at elitistjerks here: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t36999-feral_druid_numbers/

    Cap vs Level 83 mob = 8% Hit = 262.32 HitRating (Raid Bosses)

    I’ve verified this myself on a boss target dummy, where at 7.93% hit, I missed about 3 times in 2000 hits.

    Just an FYI.




  15. Hey yall
    most of this has been said but here goes.

    so here I am I have about 30k hp unbuffed 35k armor 7.80% dodge( mind you this is if you mouseover the dodge attribute in game one part says dodge rating % and then it says dodge.) 416 defense ~900 agi. This is plenty to do H naxx and all end game content so far. What you really need for Heroics is about 6.5% dodge. I had less to start with of course and would easily get 2 shot or just not be able to hold good agro. remember that if you dodge you get rage so you can attack more often. It is also not required to fully spec the natural reaction if you have extra dodge above 6.5%. However I do because you will generate more rage. Also the lvl 70 idol is key for single targets because there really isnt a better idol besides the 65 agi from the mangle. Then on AoE targets I will switch to my other swipe/maul idol that I got from the coins in venture bay blah. That really helps keep agro in heroics. Also you wont be mangling as much on aoe targets the other really cool part about doing this switch is that you can switch idols in battle. So if I am tanking a bunch of mobs before a boss and I forget to switch I can right then. Or more likely there are many targets and then you have a main target that will have more hp and go down last. Here is my armory link http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackwing+Lair&n=Jrbaconcheez

    keep this in mind. first shoot for 6.5% dodge.
    The way i did it at first was with crazy 27 dodge gems from JC. then if you use the Frost resist gear that a LW can craft you can get up to about 38k hp (43k raid buffed). These items have many gem slots you should stack mostly dodge or dodge and stam. second to agi.
    after you get to the 6.5% dodge then you should shoot for your agi. defense will come automatically with some of the tanking necks, back and trinkets. Also the fact is that you need zero defense. Armor should also come automatically with your agi. Shoot for pieces with the most agi and stam if you can’t find items with dodge or gem slots that you can put dodge in.

    really imo the druid tank did change a bit but the reason they seem gimped is because look at what other tanks get to do in heroics… AOE = win.
    If you remember druids needed a bit more cc then most anyway and the game has really gotten away from that. Which really means that druid tanks are super skillful and that ppl playing atm are crap and becoming more crappy as they continue to spam aoe key all day. No CC makes the game really lame.
    hit one key all day for every class. that isnt a game it is just a system of controll to make sure you are still at the keyboard.
    As far a a single target I would love to see anyone pull agro from me without purposely taunting or using MD or something. It doesnt happen I get agro from my guilds pally tank by simply puting one lacerate and mangle, maul. no growl needed lawl.


  16. I just have a question about the expertise cap. You say here BBB that expertise rating cap is 132 for kittys, while elitist jerks say ~409 with primal precision. Both of you say that Primal Precision grants 2.5% chance to not be dodged or parried leaving 4% to be mitigated, but you came up with different numbers for the remaining 4%. Now on the point of hit cap, you say 295.2 needing to mitigate for 9%while elitist jerks say 262.3 for 8%. Who is right?


  17. So it turns out I’m retarded about the expertise cap. I was just confused about elitist jerk’s notation. But my question about the hit cap still remains. Do we need to account for 8% chance to miss or 9%?


  18. I need some help if you can. I’m just starting heroics so no great gear yet (except for all the epic LW craft items; polar gear; ice strikers cloak, trollwoven spaulers, etc). Armor and HP are not great, but pretty good (self-buffed: 32K HP; 31K Arm; Def 413; Dodge 26.9%). The problem I have with tanking heroics right now is generating enough threat if I’m in a group that is more powerful than I (which happens quite often). Just can’t keep agro. What’s the best way for me to increase my threat generation, especially with multiple targets. Currently I have (self-buffed: DPS 334.6; AP 3360; Hit 82; Crit 29.5; Exp 20). I feel like maybe I should switch from +def/+dog to +Agil/+Hit and maybe use some of my cat gear to compensate for the time being. Any recommendations on where i should be concentrating my efforts. Appreciate any help you can give me (besides staying in Kitty form until I improve gear; which is prob the best advice).


  19. Follow-up (off topic a bit): Also thinking about tweaking talents… any thoughts on the trade-offs between ILop, Pred Instinct/Feral Instinct, Infected Wounds vs. Natural/Master Shapeshifter… without nerfing cat form too badly. Do you consider any of these essential to bear (and my agro problem) or just a good plus to have?


  20. Truth is, to be the most effective cat you won’t be a fully effective bear. My talent tree (I’m on Kael’Thas) is mostly bear based, I main tank all the raids right now, but I still pull off ~3k dps on single targets. I don’t have any trouble either with pvp so I like my current base.


  21. Okay, i know who have heard this question a thousand times, but let me help ppl who dont know how to rephrase a question so leet ppl can understand Lamen terms!

    What Defense cap would i need if i was to use my 3 points for SotF, else where, so i could get more of a true Cat/Bear hybrid, like if i spent 2 points in Nurturing Instinct, or intensity to generate that extra rage so i can keep those damn DK’s from pestilencing a target off me with a “Whoops wrong button”?

    33k Armor
    427 Def(still trying to get rid of Deflection Band)
    118 Resil, (BELIEVE IT, my Hateful wrists are the only thing good till 25man Naxx)

    2.47 speed
    4519 AP
    85 HR
    35.79% crit
    30 Expertise

    Ballnchain Dath’Remar, love pulling Aggro off pallies, and killing them in pvp!


  22. As SoTF increase all attributes, with 6%.. I think that it’s a pretty good 3 talentpoints for dpsing as well.. And about ure tanking with pvpgear… In my opinion pvpgear is imba for tanking as it has a load of Agility and stamina!

    Anyway.. My question is as follows:

    Im in 3/5 valorous, some other naxx 25 man gear and heroic/naxx 10 man. I got pathetic hit: 70.. But… Does it make that big a diference? When i look over my recount information for the last raid i shows me that i miss arround 5%.. Im just thinkig.. Is it worth it getting all that hit? Im gonna lose alot of AP and crit if I have to re-socket my gear.. Anyway.. Atm im getting some hit gear to see what difference it makes.

    Ohhh and… Hit/exp for tanking… Not even thought about getting it.. And i have NO problems holding aggro from 4k dps.


  23. Ballnchain for ur question about defence cap without SotF so do u need 540defence (5.6%) just like warrior/dk and pala needs to avoid to be critical hitted by a lvl 83 boss.

    Eowin have you tried to check how many misses you got by testing it on the boss dummy in one of the faction cities?
    The more hit chance you got the more you hit and more threat you will make.

    Tier parts in Wotlk hasn`t been any good rly for tanking when u need hit/expertise, it only gives sta/agi and armor pen. The bonus from T7 is not the best but is useful atm, but in 3.1 ( Ulduar ) so is T8 bonus parts the worse ever.

    If you already have OoC so is 2parts on T8 useless since we already getting enough rage so another clearcasting is useless and for 4parts only increase Survival Instinct by 8sec.
    I would say you have a bigger chance to hit both hit and expertise cap (parry) in 3.1 from what it looks like now if you are not going for T8.


  24. Rocc.. I have.. And its the 5%.. I failied to mention that im Feral dps as main spec and tank as off.. So my questions is:

    As feral dps, is it worth changing sockets and enchants from AP/crit to hit? Would it affect my dps that much? Or will it be the same as I will lose AP and crit as i resocket/enchant my gear?

    In the near future im gonna experiment with it myself, but if anyone had the answer now it would be great ^^

    And for Ballnchain… I think it will be impossible for you to tank without SoTF as there is NO lvl 80 leather with defence on it.. As far as I know anyway 🙂


  25. Only defence gear that is possible for us to get is cloak, neck, rings and trinkets and gems so going from 400 to 540 with just that is impossible so you can`t go tank without SotF.

    Sorry Eowin i can`t really help with cat dps since i always hated it and only been going raids as tank and just dpsing on a boss or two where we don`t need 2 or more tanks. But how much crit and ap do you really have?


  26. You are capped both on crit and expertise for now.
    Can only say that u should try and get some gear with hit rating that doesn`t make you lose too much crit/ap.
    You can also use the 8agi/hit gems that helps you get everything you need.


  27. Hey all!

    Recent ponderings has lead me to information indicating the Hit Cap for kitties is 263. Has anyone been able to find that this is substantiated anywhere? (The math blizz released at first was incorrect leading to incorrect calculations by our more numerically inclined fuzzy bretheren).


  28. I have checked myself with hitting the boss dummy as cat behind.

    I had out of 1000 hits 0 misses and i got 7.99% hit chance.
    So 263 is the hit cap for both bear and cat.


  29. For Kitties: You need to overcome an 8% chance to miss a mob 3 levels higher than you (raid boss). Assuming no draenei in your party, that comes up to 263 hit rating. Every 1% chance you have to miss a mob results in 1% less DPS. Thus it is imperative that you achieve the cap for Hit (8%) and Expertise to prevent dodge Dodge (6.5%) to ensure you don’t have 14.5% less DPS than you should have.

    For Bears: Expertise is always better than hit, even past the soft-cap. Reasoning:
    Till you reach the soft cap:
    32.78998947 expertise rating = 1% less chance that the boss will dodge your attack AND 1% less chance that the boss will parry your attack = 2% more chance your attack will land.
    32.78998947 hit rating = 1% less chance the you will miss the boss = 1% more chance your attack will land.
    Thus, till the soft cap, for threat, expertise rating is twice as good as hit rating.

    After the soft cap:
    32.78998947 expertise rating = 32.78998947 hit rating = 1% more chance your attack will land. Thus, after the soft cap, for threat, expertise rating is equally good as hit rating.

    HOWEVER, Parrying a raid boss (except Patchwerk and Grand Widow Faerlina) will cause it to receive a 40% haste to the next attack it does essentially giving Expertise an additional value of damage reduction. Thus, for threat and for mitigation 1 point of expertise rating is ALWAYS > 1 point of hit rating.

    (UNLESS YOU REACH THE HARD CAP FOR EXPERTISE, something not possible at the current level of gear)


  30. OMG My Head Hurts!

    All I want to do is kill badguys and swipe bosses. I never dreamed I’d need an advanced degree in astrophysics and advanced mathematics to play a game!!


  31. since its been a while since we first established some minimums and we have had a few patchs come out that have changed our armor and specs i thought it would be a good idea to revisit this post and update some information. (I am by no means an athority on Druids/Tanking but i do my job well.)

    Now that i have a bit more experience under my belt and some nice drops to call my own i have to say that i am impressed with the amount of different and vialable gear that we druids can use to be effective tanks! (on a side note DPS kitty gear and DPS has picked way up too, its posible now for a Kitty to hit 3500dps with the right spec/rotation and gear)

    most of my gear is craftable/Heroic/Badge gear just in the past few days have i gotten any Naxx drops. with the Gear that i started with i was able to Main Tank all of Naxx 25. (to my surprise)


    and now entering ulduar i find that even without much Naxx 25 gear i am still a Viable tank.

    my gear and stats

    these stats are in Tauren form and unbuffed

    Stam – 1671
    Agi – 811
    Power – 1754
    Hit Rating – 229
    Crit – 21.64
    Expertise – 22 (185 expertise rating)
    Armor – 5943
    Defense – 415 (un-needed but adds 0.5% chance to dodge)
    dodge 26.04

    all this in total gives me a TDR (total Dmg reduction) while in Direbear form of 78.53%

    while in Direbear form unbuffed my stats are

    Health 31,000
    Armor 27,000
    Dodge 36%
    Power 5,000
    Crit (no idea)

    when i am Raid buffed (Fort, Mark, Horn of winter and kings) without Procs or trinkets going off (so before the pull)

    Health 40,000
    Armor 27,850
    Dodge 41%
    Power 5,500

    Almost 82% TDR

    i was once told going to a 25 man Naxx pug that if i was going to be a tank while being a druid i had better go PVP and get some stam gear, the guy then booted me from the raid and enlisted a Pally to tank for them. i am happy to report that the run was full of fail and I was asked by another group to tank and we had a full clear in 4 hours 🙂

    Karma is a B-tch!


  32. BBB,

    Great post I have read and reread them all and always learn something new. I have a questioon/request you once had a macro here on your web site that would let one know with the gear currently equipped without having to be in Bear form whether your avoidance was good or off but I can’t find it anymore – would you please just point me in the right direction.


  33. This is a great thread – I’m finding 8% (263) as hit cap on other sites too though and was wondering if we could get that confirmed. Or moreso, if anyone thinks that 8% (263) is incorrect, if they could specifically post why the extra 1% would be needed. Thanks.


  34. If you are a bear druid, you don’t need to be hit capped, and if you are a cat druid(cat durids r 4 fite), then you don’t need doge. Hit on bear gear is usually a wasted stat, but if the gear is an upgrade, hit is still good, as it will help with threat gen. In cat form, if you need dodge, then well, you are doing it wrong. 😛


  35. Hi great post and comments guys,

    I recently come back to play wow and found a lot of new stuff, and i was reading about the new talent IW, but now i wonder if this work with raid bosses, because i remember that every spell to slow bosses didn’t work before, can anyone tell???

    This is my build: http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000053232130322010353120300013511005503012000000000000000000

    And by the way my stats are:
    HR = 158
    ER = 34 (200)

    Today i read that HR is a waste, so i think that I’m going to change my gems for something with more agility/dodge/stam


  36. Hi there, first of all, good post.

    Here is my druid tank http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightning's+Blade&n=ßud

    Well i am main tanking in Ulduar 25 and i found out that i was getting parried and dodged a lot. You’re saying you need 443 expertise to dont get parried? That’s sorta impossible to hit this cap…

    I sit at 303 hit and 19 expertise, i dont miss but i get parried and dodged like crazy!! It’s quite frustrating when your maul or lacerate get parried when you are fighting bosses…

    So what, should i stack more expertise or what?


  37. @ Bud

    If you read an earlier post someone mentioned that expertise is twice as effective as hit until the soft cap then equally effective afterwards so expertise is always greater than hit until your capped. On that note, drop some of your hit to get more expertise as expertise reduces your chance to be dodge by 1% and reduces chance to be parried by 1%


  38. @ Bud
    Man, 19 expertise and you are main tank? How is that possible??? Check out my gear, Triplet on Mug’Thol. You can hit 44 expertise preety easily now that they give Conq badges out like candy. Some odd items like Thrusting bands and Valorous pieces have expertise down in Naxx, and I encourage you to pursue them.

    I would NOT give up hit to pickup expertise. There is no need to. Get get a weapon or trinket with a ton of hit, and you’ll find most of the gear that has expertise on it comes with hit anyways. If you give up hit, your Taunts will miss and wipes result.


  39. @Kanel

    Infected Wounds is required. While it won’t actually reduce the run speed of most bosses, the debuff still counts as a slowing effect. Quite a few of your raid members require a slowing effect on the boss to do damage. Look at the mage talent Torment the Weak (TTW) in the arcane tree for an example. Just copy my spec, or use a talent site like http://www.talent-chic.com. Sites like that crawl everyone in the armory and filter out anyone who doesn’t have a lot of raid gear on. Then it identifies the most common spec among that class/spec.

    Now, I don’t want to turn you off from speccing to fill gaps in your raid, but it is just a good baseline to start with. By no means should you try to creat a spec that has both Bear and Cat talents in it, even if you are an OT.

    @Everyone else
    Guys, you need hit. At least 250. If you are not hitting, you are not generating threat, and bad things happen. When Ulduar first came out, i was at 200 hit. I could not hold hate. Once I got Black Ice (and subsequently Twistaged Visage), I never lost hate again. My guild Tank & Spanks General, and I barksin in place. Because of that, my casters are hitting 11k dps for the entire fight. I have two rogues trixing to me and two hunters MD’ing me the entire fight and it is still very close. If your raid DPS is awesome, your threat generation has to be awesome.


  40. OMG i’m going to stop playing this after i read this thread!!
    or consider tanking:P !!
    i thought the game was to be fun but this is not fun its like a profession
    and i dont get payed for it , i have to PAY in the end !!
    something like …
    ok Bears i’v done the maths but i dont want to brag so here it goes!!
    Hit – 296
    Expertise – 443
    Dodge – Err…. (OMG so much talk and i still dont know the best % for dodge)
    why not making it a bit more simple
    but great work anyways! i never thought there were ppl like you guys
    (how much you get payed ? is it good )


  41. I have 447 hit and 15 Expertise. I haven’t really noticed me missing much, but I can’t say that I’m not. Apparently I need to work on the expertise part. I CAN say, however, that I don’t lose aggro, even to ppl who do 6K+ DPS.



  42. OK, here’s my stats, self-buffed:

    Stam: 2973
    Agi: 1368
    AP: 5282
    HR: 447 (6.27% I believe)
    Cri Str: 44.85
    Expertise: 25 (Rating is 126)
    Dodge: 40.27

    My question is this….how does haste fit into this? Or would it even help? I have no problems keeping aggro. My HR is a little high, but it’s pretty much due to my gear, not to enchants or gems. I changed out some Agi gems for Expertise/Sta gems, which consequently made my Dodge and Crit strike come down a small amount. In raids, buffed up, CS goes up to slightly over 50% and dodge goes up to around 48%. It’s nice, but I think my dodge is starting to affect my rage. I seem to be back to losing rage faster than I can generate it. Dodging generates 3 rage everytime I do, but none of my attacks use less than 10 or 15 rage., which is the other problem I was going to ask about. It’s mostly in Heroics that I have the problems with the rage. I don’t lose aggro over it or anything, it’s just a nuiscance.

    Any suggestions?



  43. I was reading carefully all this post I think some folks either missed some numeric keys or they have 4/4 TH (which cant be the case) in T7 and T8 none of had 30k+armor unless u had a trinket proc, or your healer ( priest/shaman) proc 7 k on your fur, Currently in T9 u might have 32k unbuffed armor if u have 2 rings with 4-500 armor each (which made for pali, and war), u running with “Origin of Nightmares”. There is also a neck made for war/pali with some bonus armor, not made for bear but doesn’t hurt if u can pick it up
    Anything less is = none of your hairy bear but had 32k (some say 34K) armor only in your dreams.
    Make simple bear in 25 Nax gear = about 28k armor beat it


  44. Draygoon haste will help you get more threat, i’ve got 10.51% haste increase & 37 expertise (228 expertise rating) lost 2% haste recently when i swapped Leggings of Wavering shadow for T9 leggings which i do miss but aim for around 10%, you also have an unnecessary amount of +hit, 295 is the cap, its easy to achieve without any gems or enchants. I recommend you get Leggings of Wavering shadow and some +10agility+10haste gems for any yellow gem slots.

    Also Stinkyfur is correct T9 will not get 32k armor, i have 4/5 T9.0 with Stormrage Helm, 1211agility and the 2 rings he is talking about “Clutch of Fortification +560armor ” & “Loop of the Twin Val’kry +490armor” and obviously Thick Hide talent my armor is 29687 i also have “Runed Ring of Binding +700 Armor” if i swap that for Loop of the Twin Val’Kry i have 29897 armor. i’d say T9.5 Triumph set would get close to or maybe slightly over 31k armor, But 32k – 34k not gonna happen until the T10 sets are released.


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