Feral Druid level 80 Hit, Expertise and Dodge

It’s that time again.

Level 80 brings with it revised ability and combat statistics. And now that there are folks nearing (or at) level 80, it’s time to lay down the new law.

I’m going to do my damndest to make this as clear as possible.

Level 80 Hit

At level 70; 15.76923275 Hit Rating = +1% Hit.
At level 80; 32.78998947 Hit Rating = +1% Hit.

Druids are, always, at maximum Weapon Skill in forms. At level 80; Weapon Skill = 400. NPC mobs are always at max Defense Skill per level. This means that, unlike other classes, we do not have to account for varying levels of Weapon Skill at level.

The base chance to miss a target when both attacker and defender are the same level is 5%. (400 Weapon Skill vs 400 Defense Skill)

If the defender is 3 levels higher (such as a level 83 raid boss with 415 Defense Skill) the base chance for us to miss increases to 8%.

At level 70, we needed 141.921 (effectively 142) Hit Rating to overcome that 8% chance to miss.

At level 80, we NOW need 262.32 (effectively 263) Hit Rating to overcome a 8% chance to miss.

Cut to the chase: New level 80 Feral Druid Hit Rating Cap: 263

Level 80 Expertise

I have found a correction to my original Expertise Parry information here at Elitist Jerks, which I will incorporate into my edit.

At level 80, a level 83 raid boss has a 6.5% chance to Dodge attacks from all directions, and a 16% chance to Parry attacks from a 180° arc to the bosses’ front.

10 Expertise = -2.5% to enemy chance to Parry and Dodge, regardless of level.
4 Expertise = -1%.

The Talent Primal Precision (2/2) grants 10 Expertise/ -2.5% to enemy Parry / Dodge.

Gear does not have Expertise. Gear has Expertise Rating.

At level 70; 15.76923275 Expertise Rating = 4 Expertise / -1% Parry / Dodge.
At level 80; 32.78998947 Expertise Rating = 4 Expertise / -1% Parry / Dodge.

With Primal Precision (2/2), we need to overcome 4% enemy chance to Parry / Dodge.

At level 80, with Primal Precision (2/2), we now need 131.15995788 (132 effective) Expertise Rating to eliminate enemy Dodge.
At level 80, with Primal Precision (2/2), tanking Bears can now use up to 442.664857845 (443 effective) Expertise Rating to eliminate enemy Parry.

Cut to the chase: New Feral Druid Expertise Rating Cap: 132 Kitties, 443 Bear Tanks.

**Level 80 Dodge**

The big one for Feral Druids that intend to tank; Dodge.

A lot of factors are involved in determining our actual chance to Dodge.

I will briefly describe each factor that is involved, before getting into how to apply them all for a total result.

Base Dodge is different for each class. It is the base chance a character has, standing naked without consideration for Talents or Racial abilities,  to Dodge an incoming attack.

Since Patch 3.0.1, level 80 Druids have a Base Dodge of 4.951.

Agility to Dodge ratio. How many points of pure Agility it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

At level 70; 14.7059 Agility = 1% Dodge.
At level 80; 41.6667 Agility = 1% Dodge.

Dodge Rating to Dodge ratio. How many points of Dodge Rating it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

At level 70; 18.92307854 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge.
At level 80; 39.34798813 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge.

Defense Rating to Dodge ratio. How many points of Defense Rating it takes to achieve 1% Dodge.

Some brief background. Defense Rating adds to Defense Skill. The following data assumes that you are at level 80, and have maxed your Defense Skill to 400. Defense Rating adds to your chance to Dodge, Block, Parry and avoid being struck by Critical Blows. Bear tanks cannot Block or Parry. With Survival of the Fittest (3/3) Bear Tanks cannot be struck by Critical Blows from a level 83 raid boss. We therefore will ONLY discuss the benefits of Defense Rating in terms of bonus to Dodge.

25 Defense Skill provides +1% Dodge.
1 Defense Skill provides +0.04% Dodge.

At level 70; 2.365385056 Defense Rating = 1 Defense Skill.
At level 80; 4.918498039 Defense Rating = 1 Defense Skill.

At level 80, it therefore takes 122.962450975 (123 effective) Defense Rating to achieve +1% Dodge.

Warning! Only whole values of Defense Skill are applied. The value of Defense Rating is NOT rounded up to the next whole Defense Skill.

An example;
You have 19 Defense Rating. 19 Defense Rating / 4.918498039 = 3.862 Defense Skill = 3 Defense Skill. 3 Defense Skill = 0.12% chance to Dodge.

You have 20 Defense Rating. 20 Defense Rating / 4.918498039 = 4.066 Defense Skill = 4 Defense Skill. 4 Defense Skill = 0.16% chance to Dodge.

Talents. Feral Druids have two Talents that directly increase Dodge.

Feral Swiftness (2/2) increases chance to Dodge +4%.
Natural Reaction (3/3) increases chance to Dodge +6%.

Racials. Night Elf Druids no longer get a 1% chance to Dodge from Swiftness. The Night Elf Racial was changed to instead give +2% chance to be missed.

When computing your Dodge%, please take this into account. Note that Night Elves get +2% Miss, but do not factor it into your Dodge.

This is a buff, with some consequences. Lemme sum up;

It has gone from +1% Dodge to +2% Miss, and 1% Miss has the same mitigation effect as 1% Dodge. So this is a nice increase. The significance of the change from Dodge to Miss is that Warrior effects that proc from the opponent Dodging, like Overpower, are not procced by misses. Likewise, the enemy Swing Timer is reset by Dodges… not by Misses. This means that a Night Elf gains 2% increased chance to miss over a Tauren, without incurring a corresponding increased Swing Timer reset chance. But it also means the +2% Miss does not help Druid Rage generation from Natural Reaction. So again, when you’re analyzing your Dodge%, and seeing how it therefore applies to Swing Timers and Rage generation, make a mental note that Quickness is good, but has limited effects.

Opponent Level Modifier. There is a Dodge difference due to Defense Skill vs Weapon Skill, when fighting higher level opponents. When a level 80 Druid fights a level 83 raid boss, you suffer a -.2% Dodge Penalty per level you are lower, due to your reduced base Defense Skill in comparison to the higher level Weapon Skill. So with your Defense of 400 vs Raid Boss Weapon Skill of 415, you suffer a total of -.6% Dodge due to the difference in levels.

How to apply all this to determine Total Dodge.

I have been asked to apply the Diminishing Returns rules to this, so that the final result you get will in fact be your correct Total Dodge. This is going to be miserable, but I’ll try to simplify this as much as I can.

Your Total Dodge consists of two different categories: Those stats affected by Diminishing Returns, and those that aren’t.

At this time, Base Dodge and Talents are unaffected by Diminishing Returns. Agility, Dodge Rating and Defense Rating ARE affected.  

So we have to split things up into two sections; Base, and Pre-DR.

Add up the Base stats; 

Base Dodge = 4.951
Feral Swiftness (2/2) = 4
Natural Reaction (3/3) = 6
Level difference from 83 raid boss = -.6

The total, 14.351, is our Feral Bear Dodge unaffected by Diminishing Returns.

Next, add up the Pre-DR stats.

Dodge from Agility = Your Agility from gear divided by 41.6667
Dodge from Dodge Rating = Your Dodge Rating divided by 39.34799
Dodge from Defense Rating = Your Defense Rating divided by 4.918498039, rounded down to the nearest whole number, and then the result multiplied by 0.04

We will call the total Pre-DR Dodge.

We will now work with your Pre-DR Dodge total to determine what the final value after Diminishing Returns will be.

The formula that Whitetooth derived that we will use is as follows;

Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / Pre-DR Dodge))

Your final Total Dodge after Diminishing Returns is;

14.351Dodge (After DR)

I so, so, so did not want to get into Diminishing Returns in this post. Sigh. I apologise for the pain. I really hope that it came across clearly.

I’m going to give you one example.
For the purpose of this example, I’m going to pretend that you do not have ANY Dodge Rating or Defense Rating. Only Agility added from equipped gear.

We start with 200 Agility. Our Pre-DR Dodge would be 4.799996%.
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / 4.799996))
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + 0.202500)
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / 0.211055
Dodge (After DR) = 4.738101%

200 Agility before DR, 4.799996% Dodge.
200 Agility after DR, 4.738101% Dodge.

We now increase it to 400 Agility. Our Pre-DR Dodge would be 9.599972%.
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / 9.599972))
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + 0.101253)
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / 0.109808
Dodge (After DR) = 9.106804%

400 Agility before DR, 9.599972% Dodge.
400 Agility after DR, 9.106804% Dodge.

Remember, after obtaining the Dodge (After DR) value, you still need to add 14.351 to it.

I’d like to thank the hard work of Whitetooth, creator of the RatingBuster addon who posted so much core data analysis at the Elitist Jerks website, the historical data at Wowwiki, and the insanely awesome folks at MMO Champion and Wowhead for giving me the tools for putting this post together.


121 thoughts on “Feral Druid level 80 Hit, Expertise and Dodge

  1. With my old naxx 10/25 tank gear with a few Ulduar/TOC/5mICC, i reach atm like 4400 gs.
    My current stats are (bear unbuffed):

    Hit: 274 (i know, but all comes from the gear)
    Exp: 206 (including the exp hands enchant)
    HP: 34k
    Dodge:36% ( T_T)
    Armor: 26k

    And yesterday i tanked the 3 ICC heroics and TOC w/out any problem, but i know my stats r not good enough for ICC yet.

    What r the min stats for ToC 10/25 or ICC 10?


  2. @ Kailthas

    So, pretty much this:
    1. swipe + maul macro
    2. multi alt-tab
    3. mangle/lacerate
    4.- Growl as emergency button


    Sorry for the offtoppic btw.

    P.S. actually, i used to play a hunter, and one of the problems was multishot: 1 crit = 1 mob agroed to me


  3. @Tango,

    Macro Swipe with Maul , and make sure u got glyph of maul , and when tanking a group , spam this macro while keeping on tabbing between targets , plus dont forget Demoralizing Roar , if there was any chance to apply Mangle or Lacerate while tabbing then it will be great 🙂 .. and keep your Growl as an emergency Key , anyways its not always ur fault if u lose some aggro of a mob while AoE tanking… its dpesers problem that they dont have Threat addon , and they dont manage their threat (especially hunters who dont know that they have misdirection) , you know they all just blame healer / tanker xD


  4. @honkers: agro issue indeed!
    btw any good rotation to keep agroed a 3 or more grp?, and didnt had a problem with single targets being hit capped (263) and with 216 exp rating, but with a grp..OMG

    @lasco (if u still arround or any1 else), r u sure that 214 expertise is enough to tank?


  5. @ Bear Dru, I recently started tanking with my druid and I went with deft ametrine which is 10 agi 10 haste. Staying alive doesn’t seem to be a problem but keeping threat with all the well geared dps out now is what I find to be the most trouble.


  6. Thank, one more question.

    I have a lot of yellow gem slots on my tank gear and I’m having trouble picking what gems to slot in them. Any suggestions?


  7. Okay, I really try and stay away from this thread, because there are some great commenters here that do my job for me with brilliant advice and clarifications, but i can’t let that one go by a minute longer.

    Bear Dru, as things stand right now in the game, Death Knights, Paladins and Warriors all have to be Defense capped to be able to tank successfully at 80.. and Druids, alone of all tanking classes have a Talent, Survival of the Fittest, that, when fully pointed, makes us effectively Defense capped for the purposes of tankitude.

    I say “As things stand right now”, because during the last Blizzcon they announced that in Cataclysm, they were rolling the same system Druids enjoy now out all across the board.

    So if you’re a Druid tank, spec fully into Survival of the Fittest and enjoy being on the cutting edge!


  8. This is probably a stupid question, but I’m not seeing anyone talking about Def cap. Does this mean Bear tanks don’t need to be Def capped and should I stack Stam instead?


  9. I currently hover around 247 hit rating with well over 400 expertise rating. 51k hp in bear unbuffed. Sack of wonders for the +100 hit and rings give me enough hit for ICC. i was thinking of getting the frost badge Belt from the vendor (noose or something) giving up the 46 hit rating on my current belt. putting me at 201 hit. I’ve tanked through ICC with only 180 hit rating before i got sack of wonders chest. only problem i ran into was FFF missed a couple times… which at first had me very worried. after getting to about 200 hit, that seemed to stop. My question is: Is it still a good idea to tank with around 200 hit rating? i dont intend to get any more than this, and dont want to socket hit.


  10. Greetings, I’m a bear tank on Kilrogg and I can tell you some tips as well. For alliance and horde, this differs tho. Keep in mind.

    Most druids aim to be hit capped (soft cap) to get their X % Hit. But you allready have the possibility to actually aim for 1 % lower, in case you got a dranei in the group for example. altho I agree that its easy to get Expertise rating on gear and hit rating is rather hard to find, there are way around it. Aiming for one % lower allready helps a ton. Stacking on agility has its charms but in ICC, not every single druid tank does it, I’m a full stam tank (for now) and once I’m hit capped I’ll start going for a bit of haste. The best thing to do however is to aim for 50 K hp Unbuffed in ICC, and if u get that then you can socket hit and haste for extra stats, going above 50 k hp unbuffed is quite useless cause you are around 75 k hp raidbuffed.

    I’m taking a lot less damage as warriors for example al tho they can block and stuff, my armor’s damage reduction is <3<3<3<3


  11. I am a Feral Druid and i just cant get a grip on all the numbers so could someone tell me plain and simple for a level 80 Druid how much dodge i need and what would be the cap on it? Such as 21% or 50%. I have all the talents for Tanking. Dodge is currently at 41.16%.


  12. Hi!

    Stats: in bear form unbuffed
    Dodge: 50.05%
    Armor:31 k
    exp: 17

    Dodge raid buffed 58.35%

    is it ok or should i change something?

    Thx for help!


  13. @Disgostu: I am also noticing the lack of +Hit on the items (read upgrades) I have been getting. The only place I’m seeing +Hit is in the Neck and Rings and select weapons & armor (Sack of Wonder, etc.). I could be putting on a couple upgrades now but I have been holding off because they would take me under the 263 Hit cap. I was concerned, like you, that it would hurt my TPS but looking at numerous Bears on EJ and similar sights very few are actually Hit-capped. I’ve sent an e-mail to BBB about the issue to get his input, but I haven’t heard back from him yet (a month or so ago is when I sent it). I’m definitely hoping to get some insight into this issue soon.


  14. Hey Bloch try to get around 9% 10% haste it greatly helps threat generation. Very Burnt Worg is an imba food buff with 40haste rating & stamina.
    Now for my own question.

    + Hit & T10
    New question for you all – i’m about to get 4/5 t10, anyone else notice the lack of +hit this new gear has, its always been easy to get +hit gear, but i’m about to swap Stormrage Coveret for Lasherweave Helm so i’ll loose 98+ hit so i’ll be under the the cap which will really bug me, and usually would have no intentsion to gem +hit but i may have too for a few weeks until i get a new weapon/ring/necklase to replace the 98 +hit i’ve lost.


    I noticed on other feral druids better geared than me they have around 200+hit, do you guys get away with it in raids??


  15. Hello guys. I’m trying to figure out all of these caps, but i’m having trouble finding out if it is smart to stack up a special amount of haste rating, which can help generating more threat. Hope someone can help me please? Would be really nice 🙂


  16. @TheBearWithHair:

    The primary reason for the defense cap is to make yourself immune to melee critical hits. With the addition of the Survival of the Fittest talent, you can spend 3 points in that talent and become immune to melee critical hits without having any gear with defense rating.

    Defense is still useful as it helps your dodge and chance to be missed, but it’s not as helpful as agility or dodge rating, point for point. Feral druids cannot block or parry, so the fact that defense rating increases those chances doesn’t matter.
    .-= Kaethir´s last blog ..Tier 10 and the Bear =-.


  17. Hmm.. Lovely thread btw, many usefull stuff in here 🙂

    Im just wondering, im changed to tanking when i get the rest gear needed. I tanked naxx at the start of Wotlk with hc/rep gear and got t7/t7.5, when we startet to do maly/ulduar i chaged specc to boomkin. Now i wanna tank again! 🙂 But, there only dr00d tank in guild tells me that defense dont matter anymore. That def isnt necessary, how can that be? Presuming that he´s right ofc 😛

    I would choose def, cause it benefits to “all” the tanking stats, such as dodge 😛


  18. 3.2 Tanking Tips.
    Rawr is a great program to use to evaluate gear,stats,buffs and talents. It allows you to compare many many facets that would otherwise be difficult to decide. Is 885 armor better than 16agi? Whats the best food buff? What trinkets should I use? Rawr will help you make these important decisions to help you achieve the best tanking stats.

    Hit rating is 263 (8%) soft cap (special abilities). Once you pass this it only applies to your auto attacks and it works differently. It decreases your chance to be missed by auto attacks rather than your chance to hit as is such with special abilities. If you happen to surpass 263 no biggie but if you can trade in some of your extra hit for other stats such as agility or expertise or even crit it will benefit you more.

    I’m not sure where this ‘bear druids don’t need hit’ myth comes from but I would like to say its is just wrong. 263 is very easy to achieve. If you are not hitting your target your not generating threat. Soft hit cap is a must for all tanks. Also remember you still have spells such as Growl(taunt) and Faerie Fire which will not be hit cap and can still miss. Spell hit cap of 446(17%) will make all spells hit but this is way too much hit and tanks should never stack hit over the hit cap. Once again extra hit won’t hurt but stacking any one stat will hurt you more than it will help.

    So now you ask well if my taunt misses what can I do? Easy. Glyph of Growl will give you an extra 8%hit on your taunt only. If you are only at 263(8%) hit this will mean that your taunt can still miss by 1%. This is where extra hit doesn’t hurt. For ToC I think Glyph of Growl is a must when you compare it to Glyph of Maul which only helps for aoe threat the extra chance for you taunt to work is far better. Bosses can and will become taunt immune after several failed attempts at taunting. The other two glyphs that are must have for feral tanks are Glyph of Survival Instincts and Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration.

    Expertise. Tanking expertise soft cap is 26 expertise (214) expertise rating. This will prevent raid bosses from dodging you since you are attacking from in front vs. behind like dps does. This is what you should aim for for serious raiding. Don’t immediately sacrifice agility for expertise rather find gear you can achieve both with. Never gem for expertise. Unless and until you are around 51% dodge and even then only with the purple stam/expertise gem. Even then defense will be a better mitigation stat. Unless you are having issues with parry gib. Parry gib = boss parries palyers attack = boss does more damage usually you only see this when mele dps are in front of the boss such as on auriya. Parry gib isn’t a big concern for now only think about it when your tanking ToGC25

    Rings, neck pieces. There are a very select few out there that are truly good for feral tanks. Remember just because it has agility on it doesn’t make it the best choice. You want all your gear to support you which means for these three items you will be looking for tanking ones. Try for ones that have a good amount of stamina, dodge, and expertise if you can get it. Strength wont hurt you so favor more stamina/dodge/expertise over strength. These three items with the exception of your cloak should be the only ones with any strength on them. Parry and block rating on rings neck and cloak won’t hurt but certainly won’t help.

    Dodge try for around 40% this means ~1150 agility as this is the largest contributer to your dodge.
    Armor. It comes on almost all of your gear and you should have the talent Thick Hide maxed out to maximize your armor it is your only other mitigation stat other than dodge. You should try to aim for 30k armor.

    Stamina shoot for 40k unbuffed in bear form this is about 30k in caster form. This will provide you with more than enough health to tank ToC10/25 for Anub.
    Remember stamina only provides a large health pool it doesn’t reduce any damage for you.

    Crit/attack power. Surprisingly both help with mitigation for druids but not as much as dodge and armor. This is due to savage defense the more you crit the more often you get this buff and the more ap you have the more damage is mitigated. This was given to druids in 3.1 to help equalize all tanks due to our lack of parry. Aim for 5.5kap and 40%crit. Your crit also helps to heal you through the talent Improve Leader of the pack.

    Talents. This spec is for raiding. I use it even for heroics and just swap out for a dps trinket for more threat gen as over geared bear tanks tend to have rage issues. There are many talents that are definite tanking talents that help with mitigation and stats then there are some that will increase your threat and still others to will make you more rage efficient.

    I have thought over this talent spec many many times and for raiding it is the best spec out there per talent point it provides for maximum stats,mitigation, and threat. The talents left out aren’t good tanking talents they are not talented because the other talents are better per talent point. A few things I will add. Furor 3/5 is more than enough it can help to generate rage before a pull but enrage is more than enough and you can always shift a few times then enrage once you get that initial 10 rage. Feral aggression is worthless there are so many better talents to spend your points in and there are several classes that reduce attack power by much more both talented and untalented. Still use your demoralizing roar just remember it doesn’t stack with similar abilities. King of the Jungle is also not good you don’t need ever want to enrage on a boss because of the armor reduction and it doesn’t significantly increase your threat or dps for that matter. You don’t want to sacrifice a boost in threat for a loss in mitigation. With ~30k armor you lose ~4k when you enrage a very significant amount. Infected Wounds is the only talent that some might argue about its up to you. This talent is similar to other tanks talents so talk with the tanks you regularly raid with. I prefer it cause I pug 10mans and never know who I might be tanking next to. I can’t really see putting these three talents points into any other talent. If I wanted to move them elsewhere I would go 2/2 Shredding Attacks 4/5 Furor.

    Stat Recap bear form unbuffed

    Stamina 40k
    Hit rating 263
    Dodge 40%
    Armor 30k
    Dodge 40%
    Crit 40%
    Ap 5.5k
    Expertise 26(226 rating)


  19. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47735 this trinket should get me around 32k armor, but i’ve never seen any tank on my server use one when there is so many other trinkets that gives +stamina or +dodge. I may invest the 50 emblems of triumph required for it and report back to you all. I’ll loose 2k hp but would the damage reduction even that out, i don’t know only one way to find out. Need another 15 Triumphs after that i’ll let you know!


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