This isn't about what you think it's about

I bet you all think I’m about to talk about BRK announcing he’s going to suspend the blogging (and perhaps the WoW as well) to refocus on spending time with his family and providing his love and support for his most cherished redhead wife and their son.

Nope, afraid not.

Perhaps you think I’m going to take this opportunity, instead, to gloat over talk about being nominated for an award by folks as wonderful as Matticus and Slice and Dice

Nope, not that either.

No, this post is for a far, far more important reason.

It’s to say one thing, and one thing only.



Perhaps, not that long ago, you might remember I wrote a tiny little post that drew the ire of generations of readers across the World… of Warcraft.

The post was called, amusingly enough, Dual Spec, I agree with the noob!

Ah, this post drew hate like few since I talked about PvP gear grinds for PvE tanking years ago.

In this long post, I stated a position that drew considerable heat…

I’ll give you just a taste.

If Blizzard really is going to open the gates to Dual Spec without any negative side effects, in a raid, without a cooldown, with the only stipulation being that you not actually be in combat at that particular moment, which is what they are saying right now, then they need to return to the heart of the classes that aren’t Hybrids.

Yes, I was talking, at length, over and over, how I felt it not only reasonable but damn well fair that if hybrid classes were able to choose to tank, DPS, or heal at the drop of a hat, then the straight classes, the DPS who have three flavors of DPS spec to choose from, should at LEAST be as good at it as other hybrids with similar gear levels… and actually, as far as I was concerned, they ought to damn well have the potential to be slightly better.

Skill ought to be the deciding factor, damnit.

Wow, the disagreement, the hate, the jeers… I got some interesting points of view on that one.

Well, guess what.

If you don’t like my saying it, then tell it to Ghostcrawler. Apparently, he’s a clueless noob too.

To quote Ghostcrawler;

Must… not… reply… to… thread….


Then again maybe we need a “pure vs. hybrid debate” forum. 🙂

Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps.

We try very hard not to define “slightly.” I probably got cornered by a bunch of angry posters in a dark alley one evening and blurted out “5%!” Or maybe someone in the forums suggested 5% and it stuck.

Why don’t we like to refer to very explicit numbers like 5%? Because look what happens. A fine guild like Premonition or Ensidia posts their Ulduar parses, and players jump on them and say “ZOMG that mage is below the warrior,” or “ZOMG that rogue is 7% above the paladin.” It just isn’t going to turn out that way on every parse, folks. Encounters are very different from each other. Gear varies. Even for fantastic guilds, skill varies. Players have to deal with things like lag or whatever mods they use or just dumb luck. RNG exists in boss fights. Strings of crits for a Fire mage or strings of parries for a DK tank can change the outcome enormously.

Saying that pures should beat hybrids by 5% is like saying a penny should be tails 50% of the time. If you flip a penny infinite times, yes, it will be tails half the time. But if you flip the penny three time and don’t get any tails, you shouldn’t take the penny to the bank and tell them it’s broken.

Our goal is to give every class reasonable raid buffs and utility. None of them should be so good that you earn a spot just because of that utility. Plenty of times, your utility isn’t going to be as useful because someone else has already brought that buff. This is by design. However, if you feel your class just got boned in the buff department, that is a great thing to bring up (though probably not in this thread). We used to penalize classes who had excellent buffs. Now we try to spread the wealth of both buffs and dps a lot better.

We want you to get a spot because you know what the blank you’re doing, not because your class is programmed to always do top dps or inflate raid dps through a miraculous spell that you impart by clicking a button every 30 min.

Play your class to the best of your ability. If you do so, you will be very high on the damage meters, even if you are a druid, priest, warrior, DK, shaman or paladin. You won’t top it on every fight. Some fights are better for some classes than others. Some players have better luck. Over time, the trends will emerge and most raiding players will figure them out. For our part, we will keep jimmying the numbers to get the results we want.

P.S. Don’t look for me to address this issue too often, because I have done it a few times now. Dead horse is dead. 🙂

Now, he clearly thinks that a pure DPS class already does that kind of damage if played intelligently, is correctly specced, and has the correct gear.

That’s fine, if that is what the intent is, and they actually are attempting to do that, then my only cause for bitching in my earlier post that is valid is my belief that, based on every single run I’ve ever gone on, it isn’t actually happening that way.

But that’s fine. At least he acknowledges my point and bloody well agrees with me. I’m not totally insane.

I was pretty down after some of the comments from that one. I just didn’t think I was wrong.

Considering some of the comments and the insane emails I got, to see GC make it pretty clear that he agrees that pure DPS classes at least SHOULD have the potential to be a teeny bit better than hybrid DPS…

Oh, hell yeah. Booyah!

Okay, seriously, I have no idea what else to say except that I hope and pray that Big Red Kitty and his wife and son reconnect, rediscover the deepness of their true feelings for each other, and destroy any barriers that may have arisen between them. Destroy them, I say! My best wishes go with you and your family. You will be missed, but I will be glad in my heart to know that you are together and happy, Mr BRK. God bless and godspeed.

As far as the award thingie… I’m flattered, and I’ll try and find the time to thank the folks that considered me worth a mention in nominating me more seriously later this week.

But some things just gotta be said.


11 thoughts on “This isn't about what you think it's about

  1. Hybrids… everyone wants to be a druid.



    – – – Acutally I maintain a healer priest as well who’s holy / disc and pwsheild is my best friend. I can usually survive a charge or mitigate by using fade which Trees do not get Trees get ‘OH CRAP BEAR’. Half a dozen one or the other people still have to know how to play what they play to be effective.

    (a little of silly a little of my two cents)


  2. Ok, three things,

    As someone with druid, hunter 80, priest (75), mage, pala and rogue 70, warrior, dk, warlock and shaman over 60, I’ve played them all to this point

    1) 5% is not enough. Certainly not enough to justify rolling such a dps character. I don’t see why anyone in the game should roll anything but a druid or a pala at the moment. Anything else is pointless. Perhaps DK because they are so easy and skip 55 levels.

    2) As a pure dps, I don’t need to tank to make me happier. I NEED TO HEAL. Pains about levelling rogue, warriors and mages is that they can’t heal. They pull, pull, pull, sit. Pull too many? Die. Heal is what we need. Half the time dodge, cc or armor compensates for tanking. Ok, so warriors can tank, but its the lack of heal. Warlocks as a dps class has this sorted… Hunters with pet heals.

    3) As a healer, its ability to survive attacks for short periods. Or survive a hit. Druids can always bear form. But a priest gets charged and thats it. Angel.

    Its not exposed so far, and it wasn’t clear at start of wrath, but the next 10 levels will see some classes disappear. Its a chore and a bit to level my priest from 70 to 80. Now I wish I’d went with the pally. My rogue and mage aint going anywhere soon. I barely see need to bring my hunter up next time.

    Dual spec has big consequences to the game… Would be nice if someone recognised it.


  3. I agree with GC and I think this damage differential is allready in the game. The thing is its impossible to measure because everything varies. Player skill /gear /spec /encounter everything goes into the output of dps. We have a rogue in our guild that puts out less dps then the tank despite being entirely in lvl 80 epics. Then me on my shaman the same day I hit 80 was pulling 2k constant dps. I did the same thing on my hunter too when she hit 80. You have to look at the player and skill level. We picked up a rogue from my old guild into one of our 25 mans and he was doing 5k dps.

    It comes down to if the player has done the research, geared properly, speced properly and knows what the heck they are doing. I have seen it so many times people do lower dps in raids then my below 80 characters do. If my Arcane mage at 75 is doing 1300 dps an arcane mage at 80 had better be doing more then that.

    There are so many factors that go into dps that just saying a class is overpowered or hybrids are stronger then pure classes is a complete falacy. Blizzard tunes abilities and gear based off of data and information far more advanced then what you or any other player could get from running a few 10 mans and 25 mans and then pointing at the dps report.


  4. You know it is funny. Pure DPS bemoans how if all DPS is equal there will be no reason to ever take them over a hybrid when dual specs come out. And Hybrids complain that if they want to DPS but it is not a “level” playing field, nobody will ever choose them.

    How can both sides be convinced that this is the end of their style?

    Unless you are a very endgame raider (you know, your guild was doing Sunwell before the huge nerf) I cannot imagine this having much impact on you. Unless you are decked out in the best the game has to offer, skill should theoretically be the deciding factor. And even then, this is how I see it sifting out. Raids will compose of good portions of each for the reasons everyone has mentioned. In order to maximize DPS they will take mostly the pure DPS do to their slight inherent superiority (assuming the players are of equal skill; I JUST got good with afflic and now they are more or less nerfing it :P). On the other hand, some fights will emerge where an extra tank or heals will be useful, and the top raiding guilds will fill those spots with hybrids. And after they have done it a few times and are damn good at it, their last 4 or 5 dps will no longer matter and they will take pretty much anyone.

    I am saying this as if it were in the game right now, but we all know it is not. We have all seen a DK tear up a comparably geared mage, and ret pallies embarrass rogues (not as much anymore, but still). The balance is a fragile thing and I doubt most people will ever be happy. I fall on the “pure” side of the debate purely by the numbers as dual spec hybrids have a shot at more raid spots. Pure can only ever shoot for DPS spots and as such should have a slight edge. Hybrids have a shot at other slots even if they do not get into DPS.

    But in general, my experience has been that in casual raiding a warm body that is competent at their job trumps all.


  5. I think GC is saying that there is a difference in DPS right now between hybrid and pure, from a design standpoint. I think what BBB3 is noticing is that in smaller groups, or pugs, the difference is so small as to be not noticable. I think this is intended. In smaller groups and guilds, gear is not the same, skill, etc. The advantage of a particular class is not supposed to be so great that all mages or rogues, regardless of skill or specc, will out DPS everyone in 5 mans, or 10 man naxx runs. They design around end level raids with everyone in top tier. What he’s saying is, that in that that type of environment, at top end skill… a mage might put out 6375 DPS while a hybrid dps only puts out 6056 DPS. That’s the type of difference he’s talking about. And he’s saying, (perhaps he’s not correct) that it’s already in the game.

    I think dual specc is a nice thing, but I don’t think they will be deciding, from a design standpoint, to widen the gap they already think they have, to make up for the convenience of it. I already have gear for healing and tanking, and have respecced during a raid. Not often, but I have. Making this easier isn’t going to cause them to have rogues and mages, already doing 5% more when fully specced and geared, do now, let’s say, 10% more.

    Dual spec is a nice thing for every class. For some, like druids, it’s a great pve boon. Tank and healing spec ftw. Unfortunately for, let’s say mages, they don’t get the same pve advantage. But, if you like to pve and pvp, it’s great. Of course, a hybrid, let’s say druid healer, could also take advantage of that, pve and pvp healing specs. So really, isn’t this all just the same “hybrids have it too good” argument all over again?

    And since I also play both types, I see both sides. But I really don’t think making hybrids even lower on the DPS charts, from a design standpoint, is the answer. The truth is, they are doing a pretty good job, and if dual spec really does cause top end guilds to start dropping mages and rogues, they will address it.


  6. Some hybrids, though possessing the ability to heal or tank, have little or no desire to do so. I haven’t touched a piece of spellpower gear since Mt.Hyjal. If Faydre brought me because he thought I could switch to heal, he’d be in for a big surprise. I don’t have a clue how to heal as a Paladin. I’ve never even had Beacon of Light on my hot bar.

    If hybird DPS must always be worse than Pure, why would ever bring a Hybrid to DPS. They would be pigeonholed to heal or tank. It’s disappointing that GC doesn’t see that.

    I want Hybrids to be competitive in all roles. I believe Hybrids need to be competitive in all roles. Mainly because I don’t want to be pigeonholed back into Hybrid = Healer like we were in the past. I won’t go back to healing, I just won’t do it.


  7. Hey BBB, congrats on the award, really great, i would totally vote for you.

    As for your statement and GC confirmation of that, i have to agree with you. But i also remember a blue post stating that they are not going to take into account duel spec when balancing the classes. They say that now, but i have a feeling that in a few months time they are going to re-consider that decision. It’s got to be really hard not to notice how much easier a druid or paladin is going to find it to get a group. especially if they are healer tank specced. Not just that, but i for one as a raid leader would invite a paladin over a rogue, mainly cause at some point i know i might need an extra healer and he’ll be able to switch and do the job. He might not be as good as a dedicated healer (cause he doesn’t play it that much) but he’ll have the basics down and be able to carry his weight. So I think it’s just a matter of time before the rogues and mages out there stat to cry, especially rogues, as they bring very little to a raid other than some great sustained DPS. at least a hunter has a pet that can, if needed, off tank, a mage is a great water cooler, a warlock, we’ll I’ve seen the videos of their pets off-tanking or even main tanking.


  8. I’ve already quit playing my pure of choice and am furiously leveling a hybrid. I played this one toon daily for over a year. It is my feeling that since there are so many dps and there is little to no difference between them, you have to be exceptional just to be noticed. I loved playing that toon, but working so hard and having perfect gear and gems and rotations just to be facerolled by DKs and such made it no longer fun. Maybe healing or tanking would interest me more. At least I have a choice to do something different with my hybrid without spending months leveling another toon.


  9. Except back then I thought you were wrong because you upheld Mages and rogues as the underdone DPS who were being harmed. Something their was no evidence of in our raids. As recent as last weekend we completed the hardest content 3.0 has to offer 3d os 10. Our dps? Rogue,mage,mage,warlock,Shadow priest(replenishment). These were the dps we considered the best in the guild. Oh and I will still probably go Dual Spec holy/holy 😦


  10. IIRC, Ghostcrawler was talking about “pure DPS should be doing a couple of hundred more DPS than hybrids” in WotLK beta. (He was using the example of rogues vs ret paladins at the time.)


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