This is not an Ulduar post

I’m going to start this post by saying that I am not in a raiding guild, and that while this may seem to start out like a post about raiding, what it turns into is a blunt statement of my personal attitude towards users and haters.

It’s long, so by all means, read on at your discretion.

We’re in summer session hereabouts, which means fewer scheduled official guild raids, and more emphasis on spontaneity and individual initiative. Folks are encouraged to get some stuff started on their own (and ask to have their events added to the calendar) without mama bear and papa bear playing Big Brother Is Watching You.

The point is to try and move away from an official or unofficial push to raid and gear up to raid and gear up to raid, and instead get into things at different times and days that are run for fun, led by new people or nobody at all, on a large or small scale. For fun. Did I mention that whole fun thing? Like, you go because you want to have fun. Not out of a hunger for more loot upgrades to get you to the next step in raid progression.

At the end of last week, in the midst of the chaos that was our life, we free Sidhe went into VoA to do some smacking around of the easy boss. Something nice and quick. A true situation where we log in, see there are 15 folks on, and call out “Who wants to smack the VoA boss around for a few minutes?”

Enough folks were interested in a quickie, we got in and got ‘er done.

At the end, I mused out loud that it was a shame that we had gotten together only to disband again so quickly.  I’m afraid I may have even mentioned that we’d never set foot in Ulduar as a guild, and wouldn’t it be neat to go in and see what all this ‘vehicle’ crap was about? I shouldn’t have, since I was totally wiped out from the week, but what the hell, I get punchy when I’m tired.

We asked the existing group, everyone was willing to give it a shot, KNOWING that we were liable to wipe a few times then call it, but off we went. We went in with me stressing that chances of a win were somewhere between slim and none, because we were just too damn tired.

Keep in mind, we had just grabbed 10 folks that wanted to do VoA. We had spent zero time trying to figure out who had the highest item levels to have the strongest group we could for the vehicles. It wasn’t important. It wasn’t about winning to get loot, it was about seeing this famous vehicle event everyone’s always talking about.

Winning wasn’t the point. We wanted to play around a little, see something new.

We entered Ulduar, and I don’t know about anyone else on the run, but it was my very first time ever stepping foot in there.

Damn, that zone is pretty.

We got inside, I checked out just for some idea of how the vehicles were supposed to work for a minute, and off we went in normal mode.

FYI, if you’re in a small guild and haven’t been there yet, running around in tanks and choppers and stuff killing trash is a ton of fun. It’s probably the first time in the game where killing trash was a joy, and not a chore.

I wouldn’t be annoyed at having to kill that trash again. Any other trash clears in a raid or instance, I get so tired of it, but in this case I just wish my tank had spikes on the hubcups to chew up the mobs we were running over!

We cleared all the towers and trash, eventually, and yes some folks were squishier than others. There were a few “hey, how do I target the aerial targets, they’re blowing me up” kind of deaths, but we all held tight and got to Flame Leviathan with only a few wipes. 

We did not, in fact, take Flame Leviathan down. We gave it a few tries, I can’t even remember exactly how many, I know we did it three times, can’t remember if there was a fourth attempt.

We ended up having a lot of fun learning how the vehicles worked, running around and beating on trash and on the boss. It was a lot of fun. I personally would like to bring my Hunter next time to get launched onto its back to go after turrets. I think it would be hellacious fun to have my kitty gnawing on one turret while I shot the other. We launched Lady Jess and Kaelynn, our two Rogues on the trip, and found out that no matter how much they kick ass, we really needed some ranged DPS to be able to target both turrets from one launch.

I am not going to describe anything we specifically did, because nothing we did was based on anything other than flying by the seat of our pants and having fun. I’m sure there are plenty of people that could offer excellent advice on what to do… but we just weren’t worried about it. Not even to the point of studying it or preparing our gear first for the right Ilevels. 

We were there to have fun, and fun was had by all. If not, they lie real well.  

Studying up for an hour in advance wasn’t how we wanted to play it. We had a spur of the moment whim to go see something new, I wanted to actually SEE it by playing it the first time, and maybe I’m delusional, but I think we learned a lot being thrust headlong into the fire. I know I had a lot of fun. Maybe next time we will actually read something about what to do. Then again, maybe not. 🙂

But this ain’t an Ulduar post.

This is a ‘we are not a raiding guild’ post. And, hand in hand with it, a ‘what is polite behavior when contacting someone who is raiding’ post.

While we were in Ulduar, for the first time ever, as we fought Flame Leviathan as a guild for the very first time ever…seriously, ON our first attempt…

Between Cassie and I, we got five whispers.

That is during one boss fight, our first shot, not spread over the course of multiple attempts.

Are you people kidding me?

Now, yes, Cassie and I are GMs of a fairly public guild. We may not raid or do anything special, but simply by blabbing about it it’s got some visibility. Likewise, from having a public blogging persona I do get a few whispers from folks here and there, both while raiding and not.

It happens, and I know that I’ve blogged about a raid here or there, and I get the feeling this has given the wrong impression of our guild. Blogging about raiding puts a spotlight on the fact that we have, in fact, raided and continue to do so, to some extent.

There is a huge difference between raiding guilds and us. 

Five whispers within a 7 minute stretch of time, from people not in the guild, most of whom we’ve never heard from before. It’s way over the norm.

And since then, two of those people applied to join, mentioning raiding in some way, and someone that is a friend of someone in the guild has server transfered without talking to us at all first, and applied to join citing a desire to raid and not liking casual guilds.

Yeah, umm… sigh.

Yes, we stepped foot in Ulduar. Yes, we were actually in the hallowed of the hallowed halls, the holy grail for raiders, the allmighty Ulduar.

We are not a raiding guild.

There’s two parts to this, obviously, and they aren’t the same. They just both came out of the same event.

The first part is being an officer of a guild, and accepting the fact that people watch where you are, what you’re doing… and when you are seen to be raiding somewhere they want to be, they see it as a perfect opportunity to try and join in.

From the point of view of the player, it must seem eminently reasonable. You want to raid, see new stuff, you see someone that’s there, so if you join them, you can do what it is you want to do. They’re not doing you a favor, either; it works out for both sides, right? You want to raid, and most guilds need dedicated, skilled, responsible raiders. So it’s a win-win.

That works well only up to the point that the guild in question IS driven by a desire to raid, and to take people based on skill and gear and the dedication to show up for the majority of scheduled raids.

When the guild is a casual one, a social one, a guild founded on and driven by having fun with friends, it becomes a different situation.

In politics, it’s called the “Who was with me before Chicago” principle. The people you meet after you are successful really can’t be trusted, not as deeply as those people who were your friends long before you ‘blew up’, long before there was any reason to hang with you other than friendship and shared interests in fun.

Once you have something other people may want, you accept that they are joining you for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with what’s important to you.

In this case, we are raiding with friends, friends that have been there with us to have fun long before raiding was a twinkle in anyone’s eye. Ever since we started doing Naxx, we’ve seen an increase in raiders asking to join. Raiders that want to take part in serious raids want into the guild.

When we review apps, we look very closely as to the motivations behind why someone wants to join. Why? Because we don’t want to waste our time or someone else’s by accepting someone that is joining to raid, and who will only become frustrated when they find out Sidhe Devils aren’t ‘happy super raid puppy zone’. 

We have been extremely lucky in this. We have, to my knowledge, only people that fit in the ‘friend’ category, and not in the ‘raider’ category.

The other part… well, the other part is the kicker.

Now, I’ll grant you, last week Cassie and I were both on short fuses. It’s been hella stressful around here, and so any stress, any added drama of any kind from any direction has been incredibly unwelcome these last few weeks.

But even so.

I’ve been playing this game a long damn time. Long enough that there are certain unwritten rules that, for better or worse, I take for granted.

One of the very first rules, almost at the top of the list, is that before you whisper someone out of the blue, you do a /who on their name to see what they are doing, to try and see if maybe they are busy at the moment.

Want an item crafted? Want to join a guild? Want to invite along for a run? Want to say “Hi, love the blog”? It doesn’t matter. It’s always been polite to see what they may be involved in first.

Has that suddenly changed? Do formerly considerate people now just whisper whoever they want, whenever they want, without giving a damn what they might be doing?

I really don’t think so. I think the considerate people are still considerate.

I’m going to continue believing that doing a /who and holding off on whispering someone if they’re in a raid is the courteous, polite thing to do. 

But as my values and understanding may not be the same as yours, I will take the time to explain why I think it’s rude. Maybe someone has a totally valid reason for disagreeing.

If you are in the middle of doing something, something that requires concentration, such as raiding in Ulduar, and someone whispers you demanding your time and attention, it’s saying very clearly that they feel that talking to you on their schedule is more important than whatever else you might have been doing, and it’s also more important than what the other 9 people in the raid are doing as well.

All ten of you should just stop what you’re doing so you can give your attention to this other person.

Now, does that really sound correct?

As far as whispering us specifically, I would have thought that I had shown myself often enough already to be an assertive, no bullshit, in-your-face kind of bear. Someone that would not appreciate rudeness, at least not if someone wanted something from me.

Now, that’s all that needs to be said about my views on being whispered in the middle of a raid, or of being whispered where the person doesn’t say something like “Hey, I see you’re busy in Ulduar, but if you get a free moment, I’ll be online and would like to talk to you about X.”

I love things like that. It tells me you checked, saw where I was, are acknowledging that I might not be able to reply, but are telling me that you would like to talk to me, that you’d be around, telling me what you’d like to talk about, and showing that you are capable of patience. Totally different situation, you see?

Hell, rather than resenting it, I just got a whole new appreciation for you! I think you’re great! Conscientous, responsible, etc.

But thinking about the whole thing, being whispered by so many people while on a boss fight, and thinking of other things that have gone on, here and there over the course of a few years, has got me thinking of something else.

Maybe sometime during the course of this blog or in the game, I have given the impression that Cassie and I like to roll over and expose the throat, to be submissive victim types, or that we are co-dependant personalities.

Maybe the breezy tone of most of my posts, the way I try (not always successfully) to see as many sides to an argument as I can, have given this impression.

Let me just say, I apologize for any confusion, but this is simply not the case.

Nobody, and I mean nobody other than my wife and son has the right to demand that I drop what I’m doing to talk to them right that second, or to expect that I should drop whatever I’m doing and pay attention to you. 

Nobody other than my family and close, personal friends has the right to expect me to drop everything else and give them my instant, slavish obedience.

Friends help you move. Good friends help you move bodies. I welcome my good friends to call or email me at any time. I can dig with the best of ’em.

But this whole mistaking us for victims thing does seem to come up with some regularity.

I am in fact a very big asshole, and I don’t turn a blind eye to crap that gets hurled at Cassie or myself, or God forbid Alex.

There are any number of people who have made this very mistake previously, people who have mistaken our attempts at being patient, open and considerate for weakness. People who have dumped on either of us, or been rude, or insulting, or just hateful or prejudiced, and then expected me to bend over.

If you asked them, they could tell you the truth, that if you take it to that level, I do not bend over and cheerfully say “Ram it home, please, so I can placate you, because your disapproval fills me with fear.” 

Instead I’ll boot your ass from the guild, boot your ass from my life, put you on ignore, and otherwise remove all traces of your existence from my memory. Not a worry or concern. 

If someone else chooses to act that way… they have the freedom to make that choice, and they also have the freedom to deal with the consequences.

It is not our responsibility to coddle someone that is rude, obnoxious, or who otherwise acts as though the world owes them a free ride with a smile and an apology.  It is also not our responsiblity to be anyone’s parent, to let them know that, gee Timmy, you really should play nicer with others, telling other people in the guild they suck isn’t polite.

If someone acts the fool or is rude or in our face and hostile, there is no discussion, there is a simple boot to the ass and gone.

The minor incidents, the misunderstandings, these are issues for a gentle word and an understanding ear. Situations where the person has done nothing other than tweak someone else’s feeling a teeny bit, no real harm done.

If real harm is done, then boot to the head.

Tell me that I make you physically ill, that I revolt you, that I sicken you… tell me that you don’t want to play with anyone else in the guild, that they’re not worth your time… tell me that women gamers don’t make good, skilled players, that they aren’t capable… make a commitment, let everyone rearrange their lives to accomodate you, and then totally blow them off right to their face… and you’re done. Gone.

No, I’m not going to make an attempt to understand your point of view. I don’t share it, and I don’t have the desire to try. I am not your victim, and if you’re crying out for attention.. oops. Because it’s hard to get my attention on /ignore.

Life is just too short, and too precious, to spend it on haters and users.


32 thoughts on “This is not an Ulduar post

  1. I haven’t read it yet, but I like how you state in the beginning how this post will be long.

    Ha! as if we expected anything less from you =)

    If one day you were to post something along three lines I would be shocked out of my chair. One of the reasons that I’m a fan of yours is because your posts are always….meaty.

    Maybe I’ll post again when I’m done with this steak of yours.


  2. I agree wholeheartedly with you. The guild I am in is a casual non-raiding guild and we get jerks like that all the time too.

    I was just thinking, mostly because you are so public about your game playing, if you have looked into mods that stop those whispers from happening. I know that a lot of people use several mods in parental controls for their kids playing, but I thought that might work out for your situation.


  3. As I watch my guild of three years fall apart because too many people joined our little group of friends expecting that we were a raiding guild, I’m bummed we didn’t have your foresight. We sort of thought, “Well, maybe if we get enough people who want to raid seriously, we can have a serious raid group.” But then the tenor of the guild changes, and people who never wanted to raid regularly are suddenly jealous of the people who are raiding, and the casual types find nobody wants to run instances anymore, while the hardcore types complain that two days a week on the schedule isn’t enough. So people leave the guild, transfer off the server or quit the game, and I’m stuck as the only officer left, watching my friendly little guild die a slow, painful death while I debate transferring to an rp server, where I can hopefully find a mature population of social players.

    Amen BBB. Once again, you make me wish I’d rolled alliance.


  4. Ya, I usually use something like Boss Whisperer personally. It sets you to DND when you engage a boss. I had another one a while back that would tell the person what boss and how much health remaining the boss had, but I don’t remember what that one was.

    BTW, awesome blog and Semper Fi (from another former Beaufort Marine).


  5. Great article, BBB. Bonus points for “Boot to the head”. 🙂

    I’m of a like mind, and the /ignore function is a favorite of mine.


  6. Hmmm…I have a different point of view about this one but I don’t think it’s a ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ sort of issue. I think it boils down to what you’re used to and your expectations of players.

    On my end, if I have a question for someone and I see they’re in an instance, I typically ask if they have a minute to chat or if they could let me know when they do. To me, that’s common courtesy, but I think you have to keep in mind that Blizzard has really sort of set the stage for people to be pushy, obnoxious and rude. In WoW–and I assume other online games–you see people behaving in a manner they would never have the nerve to do in real life. Collecting Easter Eggs and the shenanigans I saw while farming for my wife’s pet bunny; watching level 80’s park their huge mounts on top of the mailboxes to grief noobs; corpse camping; ganking people 50 levels lower than you–all of these things come to mind when you watch the behavior of players.

    I’ve been a hardcore raider off and on for 10+ years, first in MUDs, then EQ and now in WoW. In EQ, my guild had 500 active, raiding members at our peak. I’ll give you a minute to wrap your head around that. Just imagine logging on at any given moment, 24 hours a day…7 days a week…365 days a year, and always finding a minimum of a dozen things going on at a time. Major raids, minor raids, groups helping one another–in retrospec, I miss those days because the guild members were so damned nice when it came to helping one another out. You could log in and ask for help with something and a dozen people would volunteer to help you even if they didn’t know who you were. I really miss those days because back then people would bend over backwards to help one another out. Not that we didn’t have our share of asshats, but we weeded them out fairly quickly and back then having a bad reputation on a server was pretty much a nail in the coffin for your character.

    But I digress. I guess because I’m so used to raiding all the time when I’m online, I’m accustomed to talking to people while raiding. It’s not uncommon for me to chat with 3-4 people during a raid while I’m MTing. My answers might be a bit delayed or I might tell the person to bear with me because I’m tanking, but I don’t mind chatting, answering questions about my guild/ raids/ gear, etc. In fact, I think it’s sort of flattering that out of all the people on the server someone could have asked, they chose to speak to me.

    I think the reason you got tells was simply because people saw you in Ulduar and players have it in their minds that Ulduar is unbelievably hard. It’s not. The mechanics in Ulduar are fairly simple and it’s no more complicated than Karazhan or Naxx. The hard modes aren’t really hard so much as they are gear-dependant but regular 10-man Ulduar isn’t bad at all. In fact, some of the fights are pretty easy.

    I’ve maintained time and again if you give me 9 people who will listen and do as they’re told, I can clear any 10-man content in the game fairly easily. I don’t say that about 25/ 40 man because it gets very hard to manage–there’s too much opportunity for shenanigans in 25/ 40, but 10 man content is really easy. I proved it in Karazhan when we used to PUG it every week and we’re starting to do it in Ulduar as well. Just to prove the point to one of the elitist assholes in my guild, I took myself and 5 well-geared guildies in about 3-4 weeks ago. He took in 10 guild members who were decked out and we pugged 4 slots. One guy was in purple and was excellent. The other three were in a mix of purple, blue and yes, even a few greens. Even so, they listened to what we told them and we one-shotted everything to Thorim (except for Ignis which we two-shotted because of some confusion about the adds). Unfortunately we lost 2 DPS and a healer just before clearing Thorim trash, so I decided to call it. Up to that point, we were beating the other ‘elite’ group timewise and I was able to prove my point. Get a group together who have a common goal, who cooperate and who communicate and you can easily clear content. I’ve been tied up a lot over the last few weeks but we resume Operation 10-man Ulduar PUG this Saturday.

    On a side note, you guys are easily geared enough to start running 10 man Ulduar and could most likely down 7 bosses within a couple of weeks of semi-casual raiding. Leviathan and XT are free loots…ridiculously easy after you’ve done the fight and understand all the mechanics. Ignis, Kologarn and Auriaya are simple rinse and repeat fights once you know the mechanics. Razorscale is fairly simple with good DPS. Iron Council takes a bit of coordination (and a good understanding of interrupts) but if you have well-geared tanks, it shouldn’t slow you down much. Until Thorim, it’s not really a challenging instance. I havent done Vezax, Yogg or Algalon yet, but I’m hoping they will be more challenging with fight mechanics.


  7. I have a feeling that I would be the kind of guy to whisper “Hey, love the blog” without checking whereabouts first.

    But then, I wouldn’t be expecting any sort of response from that anyway! 🙂

    Personally, I think you (BBB) should do more Ulduar – it really is a fantastic instance.


  8. I think having an add on like deadly boss mods or something else would be a help. It whispers back to people that whisper you when you are in a boss encounter. Lets them know what you are fighting, what percentage it is health wise, and how many people are still alive in your group.

    This way, you can feel free to just ignore them, and when you are done with the fight or raid whisper them back. Lots of people whisper friends they know are in raids just to see how the raid is going, as I do to my friends. I’m just as happy to get an auto response back if they are busy. And if they don’t reply, I assume they were busy and missed it. I constantly miss whispers or guild chat because I don’t focus on that stuff when raiding.

    I guess my question is were the seven whispers from the same people? Or were they seven different whispers? If they are from the same one or two people, then I can see you frustration. If it’s from seven different people, well, that’s the price you pay for being popular I guess. There are times when I log on my much lesser known alt, just because by the time my screen loads in Dalaran on my main, I have two or three whispers asking me to come tank something. I would agree, that behavior is pretty annoying.


  9. Being whispered midst a boss fight sucks! I do run DBM which tells the others I’m engaged with a boss, so it’s usually okay… but its just as distracting for trash pulls! Now I am in a raiding guild, but still, you don’t bug people in a raid without acknowledging that they are in fact, busy, and may not be able to respond anytime soon.

    On the other hand, I am VERY glad you went in and had fun in Ulduar and on Flame Leviathan! That fight is just plain FUN with all the vehicles and the various roles you can take in each. I have no desire to regale you with strategy because you made it clear FUN was the point, not advancement or loot. 🙂 I’m not the strategizer anyway… Just tell me what healing job I have, and anything I have to watch out for… ::chuckle::

    and Have I been tempted to come over and start a toon on that server just because you all seem to have so much fun together??? Sure I have, but heck, when would I find the time with all the friends I have and things I do on my server? I have a couple of toons on Moon Guard that get very little attention already. So, while I love reading your blog and think you and Cassie are great people (and no, your claim to assholery does not disabuse me of that feeling), I am perfectly content to leave it at that. 🙂


  10. I’ve gotten a few random whispers from people while I was doing an instance. For a while, I was selling a lot of crafted blacksmithing goods, which says the name of the person who made it, and sometimes people would whisper me wanting to complete their set. Which is fine, and brought me a little bit of income (except for this one jerk who didn’t tip me and in fact borrowed some ore for me and never paid me back, not that I’m still bitter 8 months later), but it was a little absurd to be in the middle of a CoT: Strat run and some guy is whispering you like “Hey, can you make me some gauntlets?”. Now I have Deadly Boss Mods which automatically tells people I am in the middle of a fight, so I don’t worry about it, but that’s probably not worth it for you if you don’t really ever raid.


  11. Well, first off let me say, I do use Deadly Boss Mods. So yeah, that’s going out when folks whisper me. Sometimes, I wonder if that thing is on.

    Like I said, I do not have a problem with people who whisper me and are at all courteous about it. Not in a raid, not anywhere else.
    It is when I get whispered from someone that demands an immediate response, regardless of what I might be actually doing at the time.

    That’s all.

    Hell, if I’m in Naxx or Ulduar or whatever and get a whisper, and the person says “Hey, just wanted to say like the blog, keep it up” then I am incredibly flattered, I’m not irritated at all. Yes, yes, I know, freaking ego trip, but it does happen. It always amazes me, and I certainly never resent it.

    It’s people that can’t just wait a few moments for a response. That will whisper me again, pissy at not getting a fast reply even though I do have DBM telling the just what the heck I’m doing.

    I thank the vast majority of you so much for not being the people I’m talking about. Really.

    They say the squeaky wheel gets the oil, and in this case the few selfish dolts get an entire cranky blog post devoted to them.

    Maybe I’m feeding the wrong damn trend.


  12. Haha, funny this happens to me occassionaly too, though I’m not a public figure by any means. Twice in 2 weeks now, when a server I used to play on was down, a friend logged onto his alt on my server just to bug me – in the middle of our scheduled raid time no less – about how far we’ve gone, strats, did we get yoggy last week etc etc, and would I like to move back and join his guild, they’d love to have me…. I mean in the middle of my raid!!!! And I’m a tank. I have to tank the bosses, dont I? I cant afk my way through, even an easy boss. I dont know what’s he’s thinking, but I do know the only reason he does it is because he’s bored since his own server is offline. Last night, I just stopped responding and he went away. Some people have no idea how to win friends & influence people.


  13. Sort of off topic but am I the only person that hates flame leviathan? I really like killing all the little dwarves before, but the actual boss fight I hate. I have always sucked at any sort of driving or shooting game, and especially at driving PLUS shooting games (For a long time I was alwyas last in Mario Kart) so to me FL is like a big nightmare. The other 3 “easy” bosses up to including Deconstructor I like and are easy enough for me to know my job. but FL is a PITA for me.


  14. Hey BBB,
    Long time reader, first time poster (I think).

    I don’t think I’ll be doing Ulduar anytime soon, probably not until the level cap is 150 and I can solo it. 🙂

    Like Darth Solo, I play alone, but sometimes wish I could find a casual, mature guild on my server(s) that I could hook up with. The way you blog makes it sound so fun.

    But, being a really, really, really nice guy, I’ve recognized that I let people take advantage of me way too much. I’d get whispered to help out on quests, or rush people thru dungeons, and it’s hard for me to say no to people I have some connection to, no matter how tenuous. I’d probably end up not playing that toon if I noticed people online that would ask me for help, and just play other alts exclusively.

    But anyways, keep up the good blogging. 🙂


  15. I gotta hand it to your BBB. If its not a wall of text crit its not one of your posts 😉

    Interesting problem about raiders aplying to your non-raiding guild. Be careful if you get a critical mass of these raider types, they might start pulling your guild in a direction your not so keen on 🙂

    Gobble gobble.


  16. I think that whispering and being pushy bit is possibly a generational thing. I see this at work a lot. The “Y” generation doesn’t seem to have the same concepts of propriety and “personal space” that someone of my advanced age of 35 has (Back in my day!!!). Everything is an opportunity for social networking and “putting yourself out there” to a lot of them. Not saying it’s an entire generation, but it does happen. Frequently. And given the younger influence on the game, I’ve seen a number of more *ahem* mature players change into “that guy” over time as well. Sadly, I think this is not only the nature of the medium but a sign of the times.


  17. Oh god I feel so guilty right now.

    One of the few kind people I’ve met in WoW was doing OS and downing Sartharion when I asked him for a second of his time. DBM replied, saying that he had engaged Sartharion and that he was at 35 or so percent. Of course, I tried to be patient, but I couldn’t help being interested and wondering how the fight was going. I whispered him again later, saying “Good luck in there”, and DBM told me that Sartharion was at 12 percent. I decided that since my curiosity had been sated, that I wouldn’t whisper him again in, oh, to be safe, 6 or 7 minutes.

    4 minutes later, I said “lol yeah right”, followed by “oops mt”, and saw that Sartharion was at 3 percent. Oops.

    Needless to say, he was a bit annoyed, but luckily we were friends. I wouldn’t dream of pushing my luck with a stranger.

    All I wanted was a raid group so I could try to solo Onyxia. I did. It was pretty cool.


  18. If you think it’s hard tanking and chatting at the same time try healing and chatting. Keeping lifebloom up only gives me a 8s window to respond in, that is if I even dare start typing, considering someone might need an emergency heal. That means that the most people tend to get out of me is that I’m occupied if I respond at all.

    It’s a thin line to walk keeping the guild working how it was supposed to and not letting newer members tempt you to change it too much. As one person said “You can’t please them all.” and imo it’s the core of old friends that are important to keep, the rest comes and goes. My guild broke up just a little while ago and part of the reason might very well be that it was trying to do hardcore raiding while being casual, or something like that.
    Personally I love the challenges you can get while progressing but I can’t handle hardcore raiding. So while I’m taking a break from WoW I’ll have to decide on what I really want out of the game and on what level I want to raid, and then how to find a guild that fits. I, like a lot of you it seems, like helping others but lately I’ve found myself saying no more than I would prefer, just so I can get some time of my own. Some people knows exactly what they want but I find it really hard getting the right balance.

    Seems this post only got partly connected with BBB’s but I guess I needed to get this out of my system in some way.


  19. “Boot to the head”
    “Yeah yeah”

    Ahh, sit back with a cop of coffee and enjoy a wall of text like no other.

    There are so many good points in this, that it is hard just to make a “comment”.

    However, I think the /whisper issue really depends on how you approach the chat – does it represent a conversation or something like an instant messenger?
    I tend to use it as the latter, which is why I may be a person that sends a message to someone, whom I could have found out is occupied, had I checked. BUT the big difference is that I would never expect a response before my receiver is good and ready to make one. in fact, If there is no reply from you and I check where you are, I will most likely send you another msg. stressing that you should not reply before you have the time.
    Which leads me to the single most hated msg to get in the whole game: [from: respectforothers.lowut] ?


  20. I feel your pain. I’ve been an officer in two great guilds, the first of which, sadly disbanded due to real life getting the the way for our GM. They are just social and leveling guilds, but as more of us hit 80 and because friends we have gotten to do Heroics as a guild and pug some raids. However, we also have alot of low levels whom we give runs to in our free time and otherwise give help and advice too.

    Nothing, but nothing, rubs me the wrong way like a pushy low level player being rude to us 80s because we are busy and they want something NOW. They throw tantrums about how awful the guild is because nobody is free to run them through X RIGHT NOW, not later, it has to be now…and then they /gquit.

    But a guildie took the cake the other day. He asked if someone would run him through Stratholme until he dinged 55, so he could start a Death Knight. He was 52. We tried extremely politely to explain how much we did not want to do that, as it would take hours of our time. He listen to this quietly for a few minutes and then dropped “I hate when people beat around the bush. Are you running me or not?” And I just had to take a deep, cleansing breath….and give him a verbal beatdown for being lazy and incredibly rude.


  21. Friday’s comment reminds me of so many people I’ve met, in and out of game 🙂 I’ve found the people that are the most demanding are often people you’ve helped the most. Like once you help someone out, they think that defines your relationship, and you are there to help them and do things for them, and if you don’t then YOU’RE the one being selfish. This happens with older people as well as young (though maybe young people are more likely to be demanding of strangers? I don’t know).
    It’s why I don’t lend money to anyone. It only leads to trouble.


  22. You have my sympathies, BBB. Several whispers during trash or a boss encounter can be extremely distracting, especially if you’re tanking or healing. Heck, I have trouble handling /w conversations doing my dailies or questing.

    In addition, people who apply to guilds without doing any research are trouble waiting to happen. Seriously, why would you apply to a guild that isn’t what you’re looking for? While I love the blog, I would never join your guild on my main. I want a raiding guild. Yours is not a raiding guild (some of your stories about organizing your raids and runs make me cringe a little, but to each his own). I am not running off to join your guild simply because it’s the BBB guild.

    Since my guild is focused as a raiding guild who’s social, when we do have low level friends of members join, we tell them. Flat out. We’re a raiding guild. While occassionally you may get help with leveling, don’t expect it. Our bank is for raiding, not leveling. In addition, we’re not recruiting. If and when you do hit the level cap and get yourself appropriately geared, there’s no guarentee you’ll get a raiding spot automatically. I breathe a sigh of relief when people decide that despite their buddy being in our guild, we are not a good fit.

    Best of luck with your new recruits — hopefully you’ll be able to beat some sense into their heads!


  23. I think that at least one of the raiding boss mods has an auto-reply feature for whispers, and you can set it to either show the whisper or just to tell them to contact you later… Like an answering machine for tells. 🙂


  24. I understand the feeling well. We have a similar guild, I suspect – only just cleared Naxx, been into Ulduar once and after about 10 wipes (but having fun all the time -and boy the trash beforehand is good!) downed the first boss. I’m disappointed to learn that you can’t squash the trash with your tanks tho – damn I ran over lots!

    Anyway – to the point – we’re not a hardcore raiding guild, we’re not made up of the type who can raid whilst watching TV, cook their tea, talk on the phone and multiple other tasks – we still have to concentrate on what we’re doing – even on the trash in most cases. Yet being GL means that you regularly get whispers at all times, regardless of where you are. I’ve now gotten to the point where, if we’re in the process of a bit of down-time (a wipe, or someone else explaining a fight, a bio break, etc), yes I can answer a quick question. But most of the time, unless the chat is in the raid channel, it either gets ignored, or a quick “speak to me when I’m out of the raid pls”.

    If they want to know why you haven’t replied, its easy enough to work out where you are/what you’re doing, if they are rude enough to ignore that, then I think its only fair that you return the compliment 🙂


  25. i know it is largely irrelevant and not the point of your post, but just as an aside, as a hunter who has been shot onto FLs back, we are not good for this. Because we cant shoot while in melee range, we can only target the other turret, and not the one we are actually standing in front of. Also, my pet did not seem to be able to stand up there. Not a good thing to have to melee it down.


  26. I sometimes wonder whatever happened to in game mail? I mean isn’t that theoretically what it’s for? Now it just seems like extra storage or AH rejects. I wholely agree with you on friends first. My guild has people who are active in raids, and we’ve had people leave because we’re not a “raiding guild”. I choose to spend my in game time with people whose company I enjoy. There are always raids to be found if you’re skilled enough. . .


  27. If I go to visit someone on another server, I always check and see what they’re doing before I say hi. If there’s an instance name next to theirs on /who, I’ll come back another time, thank you very much. I had an RL friend log on to WoW one day while most of my guild was in Naxx and I was spodding around on my paladin, who was not in the guild at the time. He came on to say hi to me, which I appreciated, but instead of seeing that my main toon wasn’t on and trying again later, he started whispering other people in the guild, trying to find out where I was. My class leader told him I was on my paladin, so he started whispering the only paladin who was online at the time, one of our healers, and didn’t believe her when she said she wasn’t me. Boy did I chew him out for that when I finally heard about it and figured out who it was. Not only was he pestering the bejeebus out of my guildies, he did it while they were raiding. He was a raider once, he should have known better, I don’t know why he decided to make an idiot of himself. It drives me crazy that politeness seems to be considered more and more a waste of time.


  28. “It’s people that can’t just wait a few moments for a response. That will whisper me again, pissy at not getting a fast reply even though I do have DBM telling the just what the heck I’m doing.”

    Oh, if that’s what you are talking about, then yeah, that is some serious B.S. /ignore was made for people like that.


  29. I don’t seem to have a problem when people whisper me in-game when I’m in the middle of something; I’m usually too focused on what I’m doing, that I don’t see any messages trying to grab my attention. I’m a mere male, I don’t multi-task.
    I remember doing a pug group quest an hour before my very first Kara run with my new guild and the GL was trying to get my attention, to make sure I was still going to show, make sure I understood the time was fast approaching, just generally trying to make sure I was ready. Apparently he was trying to contact me for a good 10 minutes before I noticed and responded; oh yeah, that was you, B3 😉
    I run 3 separate chat panes
    1) General (minus guild * whisper);
    2) Guild
    3) Whisper
    I may not respond straight away, I may not even see something directed at me at the time, but I usually scroll up on those windows when I get a moment, just to catch up.


  30. I wish it were the strangers that bug the crap out of my during raids. Alas it is RL people I know. One in particular is in a hard core raiding guild and will commence to tell me what strategy I should use during a fight in whispers when I am in raids. He completely ignores the DBM messages he gets and will just keep going regardless if I reply or not. It took very forceful language for him to understand not to talk to me when raiding. Which is sad, but I’m a healer I don’t have time to go into the finer points of my mana regen stat weights or why we are using one strat over another mid fight. I have people to keep alive! 🙂


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