Idiots in PUGs, redux

Will this post share anything new?

Anything thou hast not already heard?


Still, this stuff amazes the heck out of me, I mean, aren’t we all a little past this crap by now?

Apparently not. And that’s why I am continuously amazed.

You know those bumper stickers, the ones that say “Mean people suck”, that we found witty a decade ago?

Yeah, they’re a cliche because it’s true, and because saying it does nothing… the mean people don’t seem to grasp the idea that, hey… we’re talking about you, asshole. Yeah, you. Omigod, no, not the person behind you, YOU!

Stop looking stupid, you know we’re talking about you. You were a dick, and you were busted on it. Play it off all you want, you’re still a dick. You know it, and we all certainly know it. And at the end of the day, it’s just a video game for the rest of us, and we log off and return to our happy lives, and you’re still a dick. 

Shall I share yet another tale of asshattedness in the trenches of a pug?

Well, heck, I’m just back from vacation, why not. I haven’t been cranky in, like, a week.

It’s a record.

So, only a few logged in for the guild, and in an instance. So, I’m in the mood to run something, and why not join a pug?

Why not, right? My friends and fellow players have commented in the blog quite often that I and I alone am unlucky enough to have bad pug groups, others never see that kind of thing. Maybe this time, things will be different.

Hope springs eternal, and all that.

I put myself in LFG as a healer, and almost immediately I am invited to a group, and the group leader, a DK named Bigdk says, in broken WoWglish, “ill tanks want to start a H ToC”.

Actually, not so bad as far as WoWglish goes. An actual sentence. This, this has possibilities. I will overlook, as much as possible, the fact that Bigdk could be short for “big dick”. It’s probably my imagination. It’s really just short for “Big Death Knight”, and the other possible connotation is simply a coincidence.

Unfortunately, that right there is what we in the writing biz call “foreshadowing”.

He forms up a group of other folks to DPS very quickly. No questions, no pauses, just BAM! there’s a group, formed from LFG.

We fly to Icecrown, summon the stragglers, enter the instance, and mount up. No real chit chat, except for Bigdk, who lets us know we’ll run out after champions are down.

Again, everything fast, smooth, minimum conversation. We’re here for business.

We burn down the mounted phase, run out, pop back in and buff up.

The group at this time consists of Bigdk the Death Knight tank, myself on Windshadow for tree heals, a Warlock named Cedeelia, a Death Knight for DPS named Darkskryer, and a Druid playing as Moonkin named Tryxter.

Pretty darn good group, I think. Should be solid.

After we buff up, we line up for the first pull. And then there is a long pause.

And then, without preamble, Bigdk says, “dark whats your dps”

Dark replies “bout 1.8, 1.9 usually.”

Bigdk replies “your half in tank gear”

Dark says, “I know, don’t have a full DPS set. Still allright though, just need a new weapon.”

Cedeelia asks, “Are we ready?”

Dark says, “Ready.”

And then Bigdk whispers me, saying “boot and replace now or ?”

And I just stare at the screen like I’ve lost my freaking mind.

WTF, over?

Let me tell you what my immediate response is, so you can then debate whether I went totally over the line or not. I’m cool with whatever your honest opinion is. I’m sure people take these things different ways, I understand.

But I whispered back, and said “Do it and I quit the run and put you on ignore. Does that make my feelings clear enough?”

Yes, that is what I said.

He then responded with “wwth” and “what the hell was that” and “why are you so rude to me”, and repeated the “Why are you being so rude” pretty continuously.

My response was “What you want to do to Dark is one of the most heinous things you can do to a player. You had him do the joust, what people call the hard part, and NOW you’re going to boot him?”

He repeated the “Why are so rude”, and then made me group leader and left the group. No words to the rest of the group at all, just bang, gone.

Seconds later, Tryxter left as well. Either a friend of Bigdk, or simply saw the tank leave and figured he’d have better luck elsewhere.

I explained to the party that Bigdk wanted to boot Dark for only having 1.8k dps, and that I told him I’d quit the run if he did, he didn’t like my attitude, so he left. I asked Cedeelia and Dark if they would be willing to continue on if I got a couple more people to fill out the group.

They both said sure, so I was fortunate enough to get Faydre to bring in his Druid to tank, and Cassie logged in with her Paladin specifically to fill out the group.

A very fast, brutally successful run later, and we parted ways, happy with our new loot.

While getting the party together, Bigdk continued to whisper me. Yes, after he had already left. No, I had not added him to my ignore list. I didn’t see the need. I only do that with spammers, or people that whisper me repeatedly when I’m trying to focus on a raid.

Anyway, he kept whispering me, telling me I’m a dick a few times, an asshole once, and then ordered me to put him on ignore so he wouldn’t have to see me ever again.

Umm… the only reason for him to want me to put him on ignore is if he intended to be one of those guys that sits in Dalaran and spends an afternoon on /2 Trade saying how nobody should run with “soandso”, they’re a ninja, and didn’t want me to know. But whatever, lifes too short.

 A very minor, very stupid event. But it just left me totally flabbergasted.

Who the hell invites people to a group, has them do part of an event, and only after they are successful starts doing gear checks and boots people that don’t measure up to his standards?

Hey, if he wanted to be stringent about gear levels and dps, then the time to do that, the only time to do that, was BEFORE we started the run.

Technically, Dark wasn’t saved to the instance. He wouldn’t have been locked out of doing the entire joust in another group all over again. Yay, how considerate.

That’s just bullshit on a level I can barely even come close to comprehending. How do you think doing that to someone is cool, and think someone else telling you they’ll leave your ass in the dust if you try to pull that shit is being rude?

Am I missing something here? We are still people sitting behind these keyboards, right? Other players aren’t like bots or something that you can use like a tissue for what you want, and then toss aside after, are they?

I mean, come on. I can see some asshat doing that to other people because they are afraid they suck as a tank and need to be carried, or something, but then acting like he was absolutely 100% in the right and that I was the one being “rude, a dick, and an asshole” for telling him that if he booted Dark I’d leave too?

I was blunt, I’ll grant you that. I wasn’t ambivalent, I wasn’t wishy-washy or passive or fucking meek. I was in-your-face confrontational when presented with something that struck me as being complete bullshit.

Maybe my approach was what was wrong. Maybe I was supposed to be what folks call “tactful” these days, meaning I should’ve kissed his ass and been all mild and said “No, please let’s not boot him. I’m sure it will be fine, let’s just go ahead with the run.”

See, I could have done that. But that’s not what I was thinking. What I was thinking was, “If you didn’t want to share loot with another plate wearer or death knight, you should’ve thought of that before you invited him and had him do the joust, asshole.”

I’m curious to get your thoughts on this kind of thing. On whether booting someone after doing well in the game and helping the party, but before they are saved is fine, and about whether my response was appropriate, over the top, or what.

Sometimes, I think I’m just losing my grip.

Added thoughts after some dinner;

You know, in hindsight, I did react more strongly to what he said to me than I would’ve normally. I wouldn’t have been quite so ‘all up in his face’ about it in other circumstances. The difference between a normal reaction and how I felt was that, the moment he whispered me, he brought me, personally, into a kind of partnership with him, against my will.

The way it felt to me at the time was that his whispering me in that way said that he assumed I was one of ‘his people’, someone that WOULD do that kind of thing to someone else. Someone that would hold a whispered huddle behind another players’ back like that in mid-run. And that’s what got me. He brought me into his bullshit little world, going behind Dark’s back to decide whether or not to boot him from a run he had already contributed to.

If Bigdk had announced in party chat, after hearing that Dark had 1.8 dps, that he was going to remove Dark from the group at that time because Bigdk thought his dps wasn’t high enough for a heroic, I would NOT have felt as emotionally invested in what had happened. Not even close.

It would not have changed the outcome, though.

I would have said in party chat that if Dark left then I’d take off too, that wouldn’t have changed, since I’m not going to play those kind of BS games. If Bigdk had insisted on kicking him, I would still have tried to revive the group. Emotionally, I wouldn’t have been as upset. I would have felt more like “ah, another elitist dick, whatever” and moved on to working the problem to a solution that resulted in fun for those that, well, had earned it by not being a dick, and probably never have thought twice about it.

It’s kind of funny to me now, that what Bigdk seemed to think was a compliment, that he was including ‘the healer’ in on the decision to boot a member of the DPS behind the back of the rest of the party, was the one exact thing that just sent my blood pressure into the red zone.


62 thoughts on “Idiots in PUGs, redux

  1. About a month ago I were in Old Kingdom heroic. I went as Moonkin. The group consisted of a Paladin Tank, a Shaman Healer, a Feral Druid DPS and a Warlock.

    First thing that kinda ticked me off were that after Warlock summoned I find they’ve already completed first 2 bosses. Guess they failed to mention that. Oh well, it’s late night and I will at least get 3 emblems out of it. Didn’t want to make a big deal out of it.

    Then the Paladin pulled the first 2 roamers below the stairs after Prince Taldaram… And Shaman were healing like mad on the Paladin, all fast and small heals… And the Paladin were hovering around 15-25% all the time.

    Okay, next pack to the left of the stairs… He pulls the pack… And the 3 roamers… Shaman heals like mad, I even drop out of Moonkin and starts healing (admittedly I really don’t know how to heal, Bear all the way)… We wipe…

    We run back in and I politely offers to tank, since 1. I clearly have (way) better gear and 2. I seem to know this instance better than the Paladin. Paladin replies with something along the lines of “I don’t have any DPS gear, I tank. Period.”. Fair enough, I give him another chance.

    We go again, this time he only gets the 3(4?) under the tent, not the 3 roaming elemental pack… Shaman heals like mad… We wipe…

    Okay… Paladin starts telling the Shaman he’s a noob and a sucky healer and I tell the Paladin that he’s not properly geared to tank Old Kingdom and that I will tank it. Paladin replies more or less as before, but kinda in a childish-stomping-the-ground manner that he’s tanking. I switch to feral anyway, so that at least I can go bear and take agro if the shit hits the fan.

    They try having the other druid go Resto and the Shaman go Elemental.

    We go again… He only gets the 3(4?) were supposed to again, and by some measure of fortune we survive the ordeal… We move on toward the shroom boss… Then at Cave Beasts he almost dies to the poison on the ground rather than backing out of it… Poor Druid.

    Okay, we’ve got cleared to the shroom boss and we engage… All the mushrooms pop up and the first thing the Paladin does is… Well you’ve probably already guessed it… Yea, he dropped Consecrate. Thank you for supplying more damage to everyone in range of the Poisonous Mushrooms… Then after having watched the Paladins health go from 100 to 30 to 90 to 20 to 80 to 10 (or something along those lines) I decide to go bear and taunt it and tank it…

    Then finally the Paladins health stabilizes and he goes “WTF GO DPS NOW, I TANK GO DPS NOW!!!!”, taunts the boss off me and drops to 30 right away.. I taunt it back and the game is on until the boss is dead. He starts yelling the same in the group a few times, that he tanks and I go DPS NOW!

    I give him the ultimatum that either I tank or I leave, cause I have no intentions of wiping all the way through the instance because he’s too stubborn to realize he doesn’t have the gear for the instance. So after him sputtering a bit more about me going DPS NOW! I leave group.

    About 30 minutes later I get a whisper from the Shaman that he left too and that they still weren’t past Jedoga Shadowseeker (third/fourth boss).

    Almost all my bad PUG experiences (I haven’t really had that many really bad ones) are from Old Kingdom, most of the, however, are hunters and their damn pets, wiping the group in the big room just before Elder Nadox (first boss). It’s the same thing that happens everytime; most important NPC to kill in the first handful of packs are the Spell Flinger (at least in my book) since they nuke for 80% of ones health. In this room there are 2 packs relatively close to one another and the Spell Flinger are not going to come to me (unless I’m lucky enough someone in group figures out to silence or death grab it) so I usually tank it where it stands, which is just doable. Then the hunter sends in the pet, which will ofcourse place itself behind the mob and thereby getting proximity agro from the second pack. Yay, now 2 Spell Flingers that nuke for 80% health.

    Now that I’m talking about what trash to kill first.

    In OK it’s the Spell Flingers (80% health nuke) and the Worshippers (flame AE on ground).

    In HoL it’s the Runeshapers (whirlwind kills melee; just gives me rage /yummy), then get in melee range for the Vanguards (they throw poisonous spears and charge those not in melee). And don’t AoE the elemental thingies up from the first boss if there are many melees in the group.. They explode when they die and have a nasty tendencey to kill the melee.. I drag the pack to the fool that does the AE and they usually figure out that the explosions hurt.

    In AN it’s the Skirmishers (they jump random target and dishes out mucho damage).

    Okay… Rage dumped… 🙂


  2. I see you having exactly the same reflex I have in those circumstances, a reflex which makes me hate rude people even more. It is this horrible reflex to feel guilty about telling a rude bastard he is an asshole, and a tendency of analyzing yourself afterwards if you weren’t too harsh on him. Bad people are masters at making you feel bad about yourself. Don’t let them.


  3. It’s disheartening to see how many people are ‘looking out for number one.’ The amount of selfishness that exists in the game can be overwhelming at times. People like Bigdk are a dime a dozen, and it’s unfortunate.

    Do I think your response could have been a little more tactful? Possibly. Do I think it was rude or inappropriate? Not at all. You didn’t insult him, you didn’t call in to question his ability to play his class, and you didn’t overreact at all. You made your feelings perfectly clear in a direct and honest way. And it’s likely that if you had kissed that DKs’ ass he would have retained the idea that what he wanted to do was ok. It’s important for him, and the thousands of others like him, to learn that behavior like that is unacceptable. And one way for them to learn that is to be bluntly confronted.

    PuGs will always be a crap shoot; you just never know what another person will be like until you group with them. I don’t expect to become best friends with people from PuGs (that’s not to say it doesn’t happen though), but I do expect people to act with a modicum of common decency. And if they act like ass-hats I’m going to call them on it.

    .-= Thistlefizz´s last blog ..And on this day a Gnome is born. =-.


  4. Appropriate response Bear.

    I had enough of people asking for dps numbers, achievements for a …..FIVE MAN HEROIC. Seriously, I remember when WotLK came out and and most of the pug 80s were in a majority of blues anyway. I don’t recall my tankadin having a tough time finishing heroics in those pugs.

    Granted, most people puggin heroics these days are probably overgeared. However this does not justify the need for dps and achievement checks for every pugger you invite to the group.

    As long as there’s less than 3 wipes in 1 heroic run, I don’t see any problem.


  5. BBB you were well justified in your response, harsh or not. I generally am not confrontational like that in the game, but I have my days. I have been a tree since 65, about 1.5 months before WOTLK came out and have PUGed a lot. I left my last guild, though it was created from rl friends of one of my best friends, because the overall attitude I got from them was elitist asshats. I hit 70 a month before Wrath came out and couldn’t get a run from them for anything because I wasn’t geared enough. That is guildies. Just my buddy was willing his friends were not. Because of that I never saw end game TBC content, I will go back soon enough though for it. I’ve completely geared 2 fresh 80s in PUGs and enjoy them. You get to see different play styles, new approaches to certain fights and can even learn a thing or two. I get annoyed when we have the jerk from LFG, but that is more the exception for me than the rule.

    I convinced some in-laws to come to the horde side from alliance and we formed a guild, built entirely on the non-elitist attitude. We run stuff, we PUG stuff, we just have fun. I enjoy the theoreycrafting side of things, though not to a super extreme level, and am able to help most of my guildies out with their class. My father-in-law has a pally and his dps was around 1400-1600. He just plays to hang out with us and have some fun, he doesn’t understand theory crafting and such. Myself and another guildy started working on explaining some stuff to him, helping get gear, enchants and gems and he is now pushing 2.6k-3k dps in heroics. He thinks it is the coolest shit.

    That is one of the joys I get from this game, helping others to better themselves… even if only virtually. I have been that guy getting kicked and it sucks! I have been in LFG for 3 heroics/raids and /whisper those LFM and I get invited then get another response and invite, tell the second group sorry got one and then get kicked as we start the encounters due to gear or whatever. This is when I am dps, as a tree I have not been kicked

    A few comments to those from above:

    Toque – “There is another side to this though, and those who run pugs all day will know what i’m talking about. Coming to the group in a half-assed spec or gear shows that they don’t care about contributing and are only hoping to get carried through and get free loot. Its depressing grouping with this kind of person.”

    This is not true at all. My father in law for example just doesn’t understand and has better things to do than get deep into the mechanics. He doesn’t want to be carried, he enjoys doing his part. He just doesn’t know any different. Also, with Off Specs, you have to get gear someplace! You can’t judge someone’s intentions based on gear/spec – they may not know better and they may be the best player you’ll ever meet. It is foolish to assume they are only there to take advantage of an over geared population!

    I had a tank in H AN, pally with 20k HP. I was on my DK and was pretty sure it would be a fail. We tore through the instance with only having a couple snags, but 0 wipes. We had 3 dps all pulling 3kish dps so threat was the only snag when there was one, but it wasn’t enough to fail. My initial thoughts were proven wrong by giving someone a chance to prove fail, as opposed to assuming they would!

    Toque, as to that specific H VH event, you are a prick! There is a nice staff in H VH that the druid could have used. Share knowledge instead of being an elitist asshat and maybe that druid will become a friend list worthy future group mate!

    Trazer – Same kind of thing here. My guild tank, me healing and 2 semi-geared dps picked up a 5th. A new DK, his dps was like 1200. I noticed he was under geared and we commented on it and wished him the best in getting some drops. As it was we had 2 3k+ dps, a tank pulling 2.5k dps and a geared healer so “carrying” him was not an issue. Why not help out a new 80 to get some gear? There is no reason to be a douche simply because someone isn’t as uber as a raiding toon.

    Dread – “I’ve had to drop people after an invite because they were poorly geared (I mean like greens aplenty) but this is only before any mobs are pulled as to not waste this persons time and after explicitly telling this person why, how much I dislike doing such things, and how they can improve themselves to get into such a ‘group.’”

    Going to disagree with you! Don’t invite them if you don’t want them. That means do your damn gear check BEFORE sending the invite so they don’t have other missed opportunities from people that don’t want to be elitist asshats. Maybe they can find a group of geared people that just want a 5th warm body and they need nothing, so that 5th has his choice of gear. Don’t invite them, just to be a jerk and kick them.

    Jack – Gear? Pf. It makes the game easier . . . but what makes it enjoyable is the people you play with.



  6. Yet again proving the GIFT principle. (Greater Internet F-wad Theory). Internet + anonymity = asshat.

    Kemonojin is a hunter, still beastmaster after all this time. I’ve got 4/5 t7 with one 7.5, and only 4 because my engineering goggles are better for me right now. I do about 1800 dps in a group, proportionately more depending on the size (5, 10, 25). But I’m a good player , and usually the last one to die in a wipe. I’ve never crossed the streams on Thaddius, (although I did get stuck without Gojira my devilsaur pet the first time, didn’t realize he wouldn’t jump on his own, so he sat up on the platform whimpering the whole time.), I pop the eyes in the gauntlet after the DDR bastard, I stay out of the slime and never got killed in frogger, so my friends don’t feel I’m a detriment to the group even though I’m not at the top of the meters. But I’ve been dumped like you described for being low DPS… then reinvited after they dumped the tank for being a peen because if you add in the extra 3% damage my ferocious inspiration was causing, I was the highest. (Plus, the tank later apologized to me because he had had his recount set to show pets seperately, and a beastmaster’s pet is a huge proportion of our DPS… )

    Dutchmike put how I feel about as well as I possibly could, and Big Daddy Frag pointed out something a lot of people forget… they were new once too. New to 80, new to heroics…new to the game entirely. Everybody starts somewhere, and if you’re a dick to them right off, they’re going to learn that being a dick is good.

    Me, as long as I’m having fun with it, I don’t really care if we win. I don’t WANT to lose, of course, but if we give it a good try and fail several times but have fun with it, then I’m happy. Did Heroic ToC with me as a bear tank, a tree friend, and some of his friends. We ate everything up until the black knight, who just beat me to death constantly. With no way to remove diseases, and no mitigation against them, he just couldn’t keep me up. We tried like four times then gave up, but we had a good time with it and an undergeared death knight got some good stuff out of it. She was the only plate wearer and was embarassed at how much stuff we were giving her… I told her we couldn’t use it and we didn’t have a disenchanter, so at best it was going to be vendored for a few gold, so she might as well get some use out of it.

    While Kayeri is right, in that it will let friends on different servers get together… I expect to see an increase in GIFTs. Shortly followed by a lot of ‘Only people on this server’ messages… Even more incentive to be an asshat when you’ll probably never see those people again, and fear little or no repercussions because they’re not on your server.


  7. Oddly enough reading a book by its cover would’ve worked for you:) Although a simple No would’ve sufficed- not vinegar, not honey, more like evoo- neutral and to the point:) Than you go your way, he goes his, and you never have to see him again


  8. I agree with the sentiment you expressed, although I probably would have worded it differently, but that is because we probably express things differently anyways. I have never enjoyed running with “leet” heads. Leet-ness is usually a red flag to leave group. I run about 95% of my Heroics and all of my raids in guild for just this reason. It seems that when many people PUG, they feel that they can mistreat others because they have no connection with these people (i.e. are not in their guild) and so treat them like dirt. I guess I was raised to do just the opposite. Use extreme courtesy with strangers and be more comfortable and willing to voice critical opinions to those close to me. But I am on the older side of the WoW demographic, so my approach may be outdated. /sigh

    btw, I appreciate the time and effort you put in writing this. Well detailed and well expressed.



  9. I agree with you the whole way. None of these, “Elite,” players started with great gear or dps but now they want to slam others for not having it yet. In fact, many of those dick players don’t turn out to be good…they just want to get rolls on all gear they can use so they try to boot others. As a healer myself I would have done what you did…using the same type of tone as well. JRS out.


  10. I think you could of worded it more tactful and still got the message across.

    “Nah, don’t boot him, the instance is going well and he seems like a nice guy”

    Thats not asslicking to the tank, yet gets the message straight across.

    The fact the tank had fractured English leads me to think hes either young or his mother tongue is something other than English – Either of which from my experience interpets English sentences slightly different to English speakers (or adults) and when reading something harsh it can seem even MORE harsh.

    It goes both ways though – I have witnessed foreign speakers form an English sentence that to me seemed extremely violent and sarcastic, but they didn’t want it to be.

    P.S. The Tank still seemed like an asshat.


  11. I always find the kind of presumption that the tank displayed to be really annoying.

    I’ve crushed the tougher Heroics with 2 brand new 80s in iffy gear because the people in the group all knew what they were doing, all played to the right pace for the group, and all sought success foremost.

    Aaaaaand… I’ve wiped messily on trash in OS10 in a group with mostly overgeared pugmates because too few were willing to pace, to play intelligently and/or stop stroking themselves to their Recount numbers long enough to notice that the tanks are lonely and the DPS all have way too many new friends.

    In a game with no real death penalty, in a Heroic like ToC that takes so little time…why would anyone choose to be that kind of jerk? The loss of a couple of hundred dps isn’t really going to change anything.

    Bear, your choice of words might have been a bit harsh…but if we don’t whack the puppies on the nose when they misbehave, they ain’t never gonna learn. Maybe, just maybe, you saved someone else from having to deal with that kind of unthinking asshattery in the future.


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