Loot rules have changed!

By the way, did a LFG run, and at the end, one of the party rolled Need on the Frozen Orb. When asked why they Needed it, the person, a very solid paladin tank from Kirin Tor, answered that other people have done it to her, so she does it now so she doesn’t get Ninjaed by someone else.

So… you decided to make sure YOU didn’t get Ninjaed… by being a, what? Pre-emptive Ninja?

When asked why she didn’t, you know, actually SAY “Everyone Need the Orb” before the last boss fell if she walked in intended to do it, her answer was, “It’s been three days, figured everyone knew by now.”

Let this be a warning to you in your groups, if you haven’t addressed this yourself already.

A Ninja is a Ninja. If you roll Need without that having been agreed on by the group in advance, you are a Ninja. Period. All else is bullshit justification.

If you announce in group, “Everyone roll Need on the Orb”, BEFORE the final boss drops, then its all good.

Maybe, to combat this, you could make a Macroed /party announcement saying just that, “Everyone roll Need on the Frozen Orb”.

Too bad, fastest damn Nexus run I’ve ever seen. Great tanking. Amazing DPS. I just healed at a dead run.

But having a Ninja at the end? Lame. Even if it’s just a Frozen Orb. Lame.

53 thoughts on “Loot rules have changed!

  1. TBH I’ve long thought that anything BoE should be a need roll, and treated as if it were an indivisible bag of gold to be rolled for. Just because some people can use them in crafting tradeskills doesn’t really make it a need – they could sell it quietly, or craft something and sell the result, etc. Likewise the hilt; the only people who should not roll are people who already have it (and the game ought to pass for them, as it does with Unique items).

    The new system lacks a clear “offspec” roll, which is causing problems and confusion. I’ve taken to waiting, passing if someone else rolls need otherwise needing for OS, while explaining that in /p.

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  2. I’ve never considered needing orbs to be a ninja move. Maybe it’s just server culture (Dentarg-US) . . . but that’s just the way I’ve always seen it done. Enough people use the orbs for crafting that it’s reasonable for a lot of people to need on the orbs for that reason. Maybe the players without crafting professions just got tired of being left out. Of, you know, a common non-binding drop easily worth a few dozen gold.

    Personally, I don’t blame them, despite my level 80 being a leatherworker.

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  3. I ran two random instances with the guild on Saturday. I pretty much passed on everything except hit ‘greed’ on a frozen orb, a recipe, and a cloak (which I actually should have hit ‘Need’ on). Anyhow, after winning the frozen orb and recipe… I actually felt guilty winning the frozen orb. What the heck was I going to do with it aside from make 14g on the ah? I feel better reading this post because I’m gathering everyone else who hit ‘Greed’ did not truly need the item either.

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  4. Hmmm…. first of all the orb is like 5 gold so its almost always needed because I think jc’s still use em for icy prisms or somethin. Also I find it less then trivial compared to what I seen the other day.

    I decided to do a pug run and the leader was unguilded… no alarms went off, I mean some folks just don’t have guilds. Well I chose to armory him and he was guilded, just not for this run.half the players in this pug had the same guild his armory had, so needless to say we were now a bit aprehensive but stayed none the less. We went through toc and rolls went out even called skinners to roll for icehowl… then came twins. I’m sure if something worthy had dropped from champions it woulda happened sooner but all junk on it. On twins illumination dropped and no rolls were called just handed it over… the other piece was rolled off…

    Anub arak went the same way handed out reign of the dead and anguish (I had the high roll on rotd) leader logged ain’t seen him since and he had a name with weird letters so couldn’t add him or ignore because the spelling…. that is how ninja’s do orbs just need to be agreed upon at the start

    After that I realized it’s always better to play with pirates because u know a pirate is only worried about the booty and nothing else while ninja’s wait for a moment to throw smoke and snatch loot and vanish…

    Now onto anub arak, there is a few items that we all salavate over as a druid. Reign of the dead is a boomkins best pal and when it dropped they called roll I rolled 96 and watched it get handed over to a guy who didn’t roll. Along with a bear/hunter polearm anguish” and some plate junk… the leader logged off and I ain’t seen him since b

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  5. I can not believe you have not come to this conclusion sooner, guess your realm must be different. I know on my realm it is simply common practice to need on the orb has been the case ever since they went BOE. Since the realms are being mixed together and all realms seem to have their own etiquette people probably need to be more careful not to offend in both directions. I would have not used the term ninja in this case and I am very strict on ninja policies in my guild its 1 strike your out.

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  6. That sucks about being ninjaed, but at the same time, you can trade bop items now, so i would have had everyone reroll for it. But its not a big deal i guess. Everyone on my server rolls need on the forzen orbs also.

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  7. I call it that the Orb was ninja taken in that case. If she wanted it then it should of been stated otherwise. I’ve done a ton of heroic random and i havent seen this come up before in any party i been in or even the mention of it either.

    On another story of being fair. I was in a H Cot Strat Random. Its one of the least random heroic ive gotten. My fairly new 80 though well geared Shadow Priest has yet to get his Epic Bronze Drake. A guildie and I was in the same run in the random. We beat the timer and the Epic Bronze Drake dropped as expected as always. I didn’t know if anyone was going to roll but i did know my guildie in the group wasn’t since he had it. But you also cant roll for it if you have it also. Anyway I was about to roll need since well thats how its always been done on H Cot Bronze Drake, everyone roll need if they need it. As i was about to roll need I saw in the chat log one the party member roll “greed” since he needed it but rolled greed instead of need. I paused for a moment a split sec before i hit the button to roll need. No one else rolled. And instead of rolling need I decided to fair as i can and roll greed on equal terms with the other party member. Only 2 of us rolled on the drake. The roll took forever to finish. We killed the last boss and the roll still wasnt finish. In the end i loss the roll with a 85 vs the other party member 87. Disapointed yes, i could of rolled need and felt it was right because it was as usual. But i rolled on equal terms in the roll and loss it fair and square. I didn’t have to feel it would of seemed to be a ninja roll even though i would of been rolling as always on the Epic Drake. Even though i lost the roll, i still felt better because it was fair. I’ll get the drake eventually like always on all my other alts. But i didnt need to feel like a ass either if the roll came up in question later.

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  8. Casual Adam: I have ret/holy as my two specs… but holy is my main. If I get into a group as DPS (Yeah, right. 😛 ) and something I can use for healing drops, I’m going to want it. I WILL ask first if I can need it, at least the first time (After that, I assume everyone knows what I’m looking for). Before, when greed meant the item still existed and could be traded, it wasn’t a real problem, but with greed and DE having the same priority, if I want something, I’m going to hit need.

    But not without warning… Wish the DE thing would set a ‘self destruct’ timer on the item like the trade timer… if you keep it in your bag, kaboom, you get mats. If you trade it to someone before the timer runs out , the timer changes to the usual trade timer.

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  9. Ran into this just yesterday. I was healing a random Forge of Souls run. When we got to Bronjahm I hit need on the bag automatically because that’s what people on my server do for epic drops everyone can use like mounts, though we greed the orbs. Imagine my embarrassment when I was the only one who did. It balances out, though, because I got no other loot the entire run.

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  10. When I ran my first random group I didn’t even think twice about needing on the frozen orbs. We’ve needed on the last-boss-one-only item’s from heroics as long as there has been such a boe/crafting item. Funny thing no one from any other server I was with did anything else. I think it’s the world-wide community standard at a certain level of play. Anyway, I will be mentioning it from now on in case I get someone who doesn’t know, good thing to bring up.

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  11. Haha! I just noticed that you and I are in the same battlegroup. I have noticed that about some realms needing on certain loot and Frozen Orbs. The best way I found to combat that is to wait and see what everyone rolls and follow. If just one person rolls need, then so do I. Good luck with your pugs and maybe someday we’ll cross paths 🙂
    .-= Wulf´s last blog ..What Hunters Should Know About 3.3 =-.

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  12. Going to create a macro for my Inscriptionist Hunter: “I’m rolling NEED on Books of Glyph Mastery. Need or Greed on Frozen Orbs?” For my Rogue and Priest, strike the first sentence.

    Ran 3 pugs yesterday, one on each character. All 15 people rolled Greed on the orbs. Maybe Vengeance BG isn’t so vengeful? 😉
    .-= Kestrel´s last blog ..Copyediting 1A: Nitpick Your NaNo =-.

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  13. Oh … and on topic .. yeah our realm always seems to roll greed on orbs … I mean … who actually NEEDS an orb these days? But one or two of our guild have reported that those from other realms using the PUG system do roll need. No major big deal really though … they’re selling for around 5g in our AH. *shrugs* I guess its one of those things that, at some point, everyone using the PUG system from different realms will settle on “the way its done”.

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  14. I have to say that I’m probably being really thick about the new loot thing, but it doesn’t make sense to me. We’ve always gone with the system of “need if you need it as an upgrade for your current/normal spec, greed if you want it for off-spec – if not, say so and it will be disenchanted – shard to be rolled for at the end”. To my mind, the new loot buttons ideally should follow that – need for current spec, greed for offspec, disenchant for sharding … and each in its own tier of priority – so someone rolling need wins over all the others, someone rolling greed wins over DE. I don’t see any point in disenchanting something if anyone in the group could have used the item, regardless of spec.

    So basically the new system seems to promote “needing” for everything (other than stuff that can’t be disenchanted) – because if you greed, you are competing with others that simply want the shard – and if someone clicks DE by mistake, they can’t exactly hand over the item once they’ve received it!

    .. sorry, slightly off topic, but I spent the first day or so assuming this was a bug that Blizzard were going to fix!

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  15. We had the same scenario when I did my first random with the LFG. Apparently on some servers thats just how they handle the orbs. I don’t think its an issue of being a ninja. I was told, and I quote, “Get used to it.”. Now i need on orbs, too.

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  16. Sigh. Sorry about the post. I was trying to self censor.
    I meant, everyone is going to be an asshat, so they use it as an excuse for being a selfish asshat themselves.

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  17. It’s the tragedy of the commons, BBB. Everyone assumes the other guy is going to be an , so why should they behave decently? Of course, one could argue that it is just a lame excuse for them to let their own inner off the leash.

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  18. I’ve gotta back up the paladin on this occasion BBB, on this realm (Daggerspine EU) Need roll is ALWAYS the done thing for Frozen Orbs, has been since they were introduced to HCs and I’d put it down to a cross realm shock. I’m on 46 random party members so far from yesterday and I met maybe 6 that didn’t Need roll it. I expect it to become the normal soon enough to prevent these situations (note: I find myself waiting for the first Need roll to occur before making my choice).

    We did however have a DK who Need rolled the 1H tank sword in UK HC and got abused heavily for being a ninja before said abuser nerdraged and quit the group. Personally I’m a little confused, I can think of a reason a DK would want a 1H tank sword.. But ah well, 50 ignore limit.

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  19. I came to toss out the same comment that a lot of others have put.. server culture seems to vary drastically, and it’s a shame there’s no way to trade Orbs to remedy mistakes.

    My main’s a boomkin, both alts are priests. Since one alt can disenchant, I’ve tried to keep an eye out for other boomkins/shamans in group that may have cloth upgrades – in a few cases, I’ve held off rolling so that I can need the cloth item & trade it to them if they want it. (It’s all been typed out in party chat, and no one’s objected yet – it’s not boomkin vs clothy needing, it’s boomkin vs everyone rolling disenchant. >.<) I'm pretty pleased with the rest of the system, but that still leaves me feeling like there's something lacking.

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  20. I ran into a situation where a Retribution Paladin was Needing on healing plate. I don’t have a problem with Needing for offspec if no one wants an item however it would have been nice of him to at least ask the rest of the group. When I brought it up, the rest of the group jumped my case, and it was then I realized they were all in the same Guild.

    However, I must comment that this is the only negative experience I’ve had with the Dungeon Finder so far.
    .-= Casual Adam´s last blog ..First Impressions: Trial of the Crusader =-.

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  21. And I’d have to say that calling me out over it after I removed her name and mentioned that there were no harsh feelings to her in particular… what is that, exactly?

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  22. I have a really hard time calling this the act of a Ninja. There are a lot of servers out there where it’s simply custom and not considered the act of Ninja.

    Do I disagree with not discussing it and making the blind assumption? Absolutely, but calling out someone who does it when it’s accepted practice is a bit overharsh IMO.

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  23. This is often the logic behind level 80s ganking level 40s. Somebody else did it to them, so this is just payback. It’s equally stupid then.

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  24. I don’t see any reason not to “need” on the orbs. That’s what ppl have done on the servers I play on. Not like they can be disenchanted. But yeah the polite thing is to wait and see what other ppl do and follow form. I’d wait, if 3 ppl rolled greed and one need, you can bet I’m rolling need too.
    .-= riffraff´s last blog ..Like a virgin =-.

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  25. I do like this blog so I thought I’d elaborate on my last comment. If someone with a particular profession needs on a recipe then everyone is ok with that. Do they actually “need” it? No they don’t, at least not like a progression guild member needs the best gear. They need that gear for progression but a trade item is never really “needed”. I think skillers needing on recipes makes sense in that I see “need” as “is useful for me”. Items to vendor aren’t useful because you can’t use them yourself or ask someone to use them for you to further your gameplay. In my eyes a frozen orb can be useful to many players in that can get something crafted with it. It’s a very blurry line though, because everything can be exchanged for gold somewhere along the line and who doesn’t need gold? I blame the system yet I’m in no way antiestablishment. 🙂

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  26. Everyone needs on frozen orbs on our realm though I do tend to wait for the first one before I click. Shouldn’t you need on something you can use, e.g. to get some gear crafted?

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  27. Same here.. On Dath’remar, things like mounts, quest items, and the like are need items. Its a ninja-preventer, since you everybody has the same priority at getting it. In the new pickups I’m having to type ‘need orb’ before the boss dies to avoid confusion.

    The hard part now a days is the main/off spec priorties that are common. Offspecs have to need, or it risks being destroyed by someone who clicked DE with a higher roll than the greed. So they’re always in direct competition with the main specs.

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  28. On our server, we’ve always rolled need on blues, greens, and frozen orbs. Lead to me apologizing a few times before I figured out that not every one is like that =P

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  29. I can understand the philosphy behind some servers needing and some only greeding. Personally, Velen server greeds on orbs but I have been in some of the cross-realm pugs and have seen need on orbs. Not that big of a deal but I do need orbs to craft my spell threats for Tailoring so they do have value over the frost resist sets.

    Since someone mentioned that orbs can’t be traded to cross realm group members maybe the best option on the BoE’s or the orbs is to start to always choose Need. That way there is never any misunderstandings and its totally up to the RNG. No one will ever be able to complain about someone being a Ninja because if we assume that everyone should be naturally Greeding because its not technically a gear upgrade….well, you know what happens when you ass—u—me.

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  30. Yeah, no worries on my part, even if it was regular loot, it’s not like I’m dying. But if folks are going to adapt to ninjas by changing the standards, everyone should just be aware of it going in. As a few said, it’s just what you might be used to, hitting a button on automatic.

    perhaps I should remove the name, simply out of courtesy. I certainly don’t think it’s anything to get upset over. I just have a habit of naming names, since I don’t feel I’ve got anything to hide.

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  31. I don’t like the “everybody greed” convention, but I recognize it’s too ingrained in players to change. I was just barely starting heroics when they changed Primal Nethers from BoP to non-bound. I’ve always assumed greeding on Orbs was a carryover from when there was a legitimate case for rolling need on them.

    I think the terminology trips people up. You don’t really “Need” that Orb or BoE blue, so you roll “Greed” and leave an opportunity for the ninja. I think a better system for non-soulbound items would be reducing the choice to roll or pass. At lower levels, you may actually need the BoE gear that drops, but that could be resolved in party chat, much like people already ask “Mind if I need on that?”.

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  32. oh I hear you. now one thing is different server culture. I just ran a Forge of Souls and a 20 slot bag dropped and even though we didn’t discuss it before hand, one person hit need immediately, the rest followed, no harm no foul. the speed with which they hit need told me that it was something automatic rather then trying to ninja.

    The other day though, running with a couple of friends and a pugged tank. same bag drops, we all hit greed automatically (now this wasn’t a crosserver group and on my server, the only things you need are upgrades, hilt included) the roll is there for a while and then tank hits need. obviously he waited for everyone to roll before hitting it – clearly a ninja. so I say something and what kills me most is my friend going in guild chat: “why are you so upset, its just a bag, its not like he ninjaed an upgrade” This is the same person who is going to laws school becasue he wants to right the injustices of the world /boggle

    it doesn’t matter what got ninjaed, its the fact that it was that matters. I’m very glad that current lfg system will not group you with people on your ignore list. better wait a little longer for a tank.

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  33. I don’t know about you, but we’ve certainly run into similar drama. On our server (Magtheridon) almost every single pug we did before 3.3 the standard procedure was greed on greens, etc, but need the orb. I have no doubt that it came up because of the very issue that you had happen to you. Anyway it’s been awkward to say the least, in dealing with people cross server, because even though I try to watch to see what other people are doing, it’s one of those things that just becomes habit. On the other hand, what is the price of a frozen orb these days, 12-15g? That’s less than the vendor price of some of the loot that drops, so it’s not a huge deal.
    Just my $.02

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  34. Had something similar in one of my LFG runs, however when questioned about it the person in question claimed that their server always needed on orbs. Personally I’m sticking with greeding as that’s what the majority have always done and with the number of heroics I’m running using the tool getting orbs hopefully won’t be a problem.
    .-= Crashandburn´s last blog ..Shifting the questing paradigm =-.

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  35. Comments on this post over at WoW.com informed me that etiquette on this issue varies by server. I always try to assume good faith on the part of others, but the fact that she didn’t let everyone re-roll on it is a bit off-putting. No major foul, to be sure, but symbolically it is disconcerting to see this becoming increasingly prevalent.

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  36. Happened to me last night. I always hit greed out of reflex, looks like I’ll have to start watching all the rolls. Also noticed one douche needing a book of glyph mastery as well. My inscriptionist is at the point where that is the only way to learn new glyphs… what a pain.

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  37. Absolutely lame.

    Negathle at the Angry Butterfly did an interesting post about the new LFG system. In particular, she mentioned how different servers had different loot rules when it came to the Frozen Orb.

    Personally, I always pause to see what the other people will do first, just in case.

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  38. I had that same thing happen, someone needed the orb. They immediately saw everyone else greeded and said in party that everyone should reroll. I won that roll then he figured out you can’t trade frozen orbs cross realm when he tried to trade it.

    I have a ton of them already so no big, do some realms need these?

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  39. Yeah this is interesting actually – my server (frostmourne) has always rolled need on orb in pugs. I have no idea why this started happened but it’s just the way the server is. Now of course this flowed over into the x-server lfg – I would assume this is happening in other battlegroups too. I personally didn’t even think anything of it until around group 5 when someone asked ‘why did you need the orb’. Now it appears most ppl are doing it – so I guess it’s caught on.

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  40. not that i don’t agree with you – I DO! A ninja is a ninja no matter the convoluted reasoning behind it – but I’ve discovered this needing problem on Frozen Orbs with a different perspective.

    i used to play on a server where needing on orbs was accepted because everybody did it. maybe it developed because of ninja wars (“i won’t be outninja’d by someone else”?) but everyone on the server did it without question. so when i server hopped to a new server, i learned right quick that needing on orbs was not acceptable and felt like an ass for doing it (and offered a reroll cause i’m not a ninja. not intentionally, anyway).

    with the new LFG system and playing with people from other servers, I wondered that if I should ever be grouped with someone from my old server, would they just automatically roll NEED because that was our norm? and how many other servers out there are like that, where rolling NEED on orbs is the norm?

    several LFG groups later, and lots of people are “ninja”ing the orbs because they’re rolling need (most of them without a word about it) and i betya rolling Need is gonna become a game-wide norm =

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  41. I don’t think it was an attempt to “ninja” the orb so much as it was a reaction to cross-server culture shock. On some servers, it’s customary to greed orbs and BoE’s. On other servers, it’s perfectly acceptable to need them. As long as everyone follows the same rules, it doesn’t matter; RNG wins in the end.

    I’m sure needing will become the “default” behavior with the advent of a cross-server LFG, since a need will automatically beat a greed. In Chloeann’s experience, it probably already is. Personally, I’ll try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and not let misunderstandings ruin an otherwise good run.

    /shrug
    .-= Elleiras´s last blog ..More 10-man drama and a possible epiphany. =-.

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  42. Different realms have different loot “rules”. Across the three realms I have 80’s on, one “needs” everything excluding boss drops, one “greeds” everything excluding boss drops and one needs/greeds as you’d expect excluding, curiously, Frozen Orbs which are always needed by everyone. So yeah, lots of room for drama there in cross-realm groups.
    On a related note anyone else driven to despair by the new pug loot rules? I’m playing a elemental shammy and a boomkin at the moment and can’t the dps cloth I need anymore. Curse you Blizzard.

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  43. I’ve been running into this too on the Vengeance battlegroup. We had someone come on to our realm forums from Jubei’thos (the primary source of such things) to tell us that the server rule for frost orbs is /need if you want it. Personally, I really don’t care – it’s not as if anyone’s crafting frost resist sets at this point and that was the primary use of the orbs in the first place. The average price of a frost orb on Kul Tiras right now is 10g, definitely not something to get worked up over if the run was smooth.

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  44. The Battered Hilt that drops off any mob in the new 5-mans is a similar situation. Our group decided that everybody should need on it because it was a legitimate NEED. If they already had it, they passed. But we made very sure that we announced it and made it clear. Just a heads up for something for you to watch out for. Watching effectively an ilvl 251 weapon be ninja’ed away is just heartbreaking.

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