Tales from the PUG: The Return

Yeah, you know it. Uh huh, that’s right, you know it.

Just when everyone is choking down actual gameplay teasers being released in a flood, here I come with some non-informative post about a PUG run.

Hey, there’s only so much teaser BS a person can take in one day. You gotta have somewhere to go for a laugh, right?

Last night, I returned to the PUG for a turn or two on my Druid.

My lovely, beefy Tauren piece of awesomeness.

As a sidebar, I’d never really noticed how much I had grown to dislike the appearance of my very first, original female Night Elf character. When I started the game and chose my Druid, the male Night Elf options all looked terrible to me, and the Night Elf females looked pretty nice. I didn’t know about the whole “pole dancing” thing yet.

But the face I chose for the Druid just looked… well, vapid. Stupid. Irritatingly so. She looked like a valley girl, like, ya know?

Is it any wonder you hardly ever saw me in anything other than Bear, Cat or Tree?

But my Tauren… ah, my Tauren.

I love him so much, I want to heal in Tauren form. Screw going into Tree, I can’t see those horns!

Okay, anyway.

Oops! First, let me make clear, there ARE Night Elf females I do like. I think my Nelf Hunter Windstar looks awesome. She looks both sensitive and badass at the same time. It’s not Night Elf females in general, it was the choice I made in face design for my Druid in specific. You can’t change faces in the Barbershop. Doing a faction change, for that alone, is almost worth it.

Okay, anyway, anyway. Again.

(You know I do that with my grammer just to torque Kestrel, right? Shh, don’t tell him. Oh, and now some dots, everyone loves my dots…)

((Love you, Kestrel!))

(((Damnit, I spelled Grammar right above… I better fix that… okay, fixed. Moar dots!)))

I’m in a cheerful mood, so watch out, I don’t know where I’ll be driving this bus next!

Right. Where the heck was I? Oh, yeah, right.

[Queue Keanu voice]: Woah.

So there I was last night, all horny and everything, and wanting to build up my stockpile of Emblems.

I created this Hawt Blood Elf Hunter Chick (Which is kinda like a Sexy Blood Elf Biker Chick, but with a reddish colored cat with great big fangs like this ;-<) and she’s got two Heirloom Trinkets, some sexy Heirloom PvE shoulders and a chestpiece, and this big honking double-barreled PvP Heirloom shotgun.

It’s all good, the cute off the shoulder armor with the little red vest is precious, but the shottie? That’s so, like, Dwarf, you know?

Now, if the Shotgun had some taste and refinement, if it had the finishing touches found in a nice Holland and Holland over/under combo, if it came in a fine handcrafted ebony wood case with a few bottles of Mont Blanc, well…

But no, it’s entirely too plebian. It simply will not do.

But I did see just the thing in the latest Tiffany’s collection catalog, this very well shaped Heirloom Bone Bow,  that looked just the sort of thing for a Blood Elf with an eye towards style and sophistication. Perhaps with the 12 1/4″ shafted arrows with Northrend Shoveltusk ivory inlay, silver chased heads and rare black eagle feather fletching?

Yeah, those cost 65 Emblems, and my charge cards are all maxed out. And you don’t EVEN want to go there, but you know, it was Easter, all the stores had their new Spring collections out, what can you do, you know?

So anyway, that’s totally why I need Emblems right now.

Hey, let’s go on a pug!

I went into the LFD tool as a healer, because I pretty much have decided that I will only tank for friends from now on. I play for fun, or to achieve goals for other characters that are going to be fun, and being a tank for the groups I typically get just isn’t all that spiffy anymore.

I love tanking with friends, but strangers? Yeah, not so much.

On the flip side, I try to never be the person that does to other tanks what people do to drive ME to stop pugging as one. You pass it on, right?

I joined LFD, and right away got an Azjol-Nerub group. That’s a good thing, because AN is about as smooth and straightforward and fast as you can hope for in a pug, when it’s all about return on time invested. 5 Emblems, 15 minutes. Sweet!

You suspect it’s going to be one of those runs, when you don’t even have five in the group yet, and the tank has already pulled the first mobs.

You know it’s going to be one of those groups, when you just rounded the corner trying to catch up to “hopalong tankaday”, and you get a facefull of ignored Skirmisher all up in your roots.

So, yay, I self-heal through that, while tossing my HoTs around and begin getting down to serious healing. This group, tank included, are taking just a massive amount of fast damage.

Wow, what the heck?

I’m running the Gearscore addon these days, NOT to judge people’s worthiness to be in my groups, but for just this type of situation. By looking at each player’s portrait in the party, I quickly see I’ve got a Paladin tank with a 5600 Gearscore, I’ve got two players, Death Knight and Shadow Priest with 3K GS (or under, actually, both were like right on the edge of 3K) who are both in the same guild, and a Warlock at around 4K.

By way of comparison, my healing gear on my Druid is pretty solid from Emblems and Heroic PoS/FoS drops, and it’s gemmed and enchanted properly, and I’m at 4.8K GS. I’ve even got a Frost cloak. So 5600 tells me that’s someone in pretty good raiding gear, and 3K tells me a couple pretty new level 80s in mostly Blues and a few crafted Epics or drops, and 4K tells me the player is working their way up nicely.

Notice I make no judgments on skill at all here. I’m simply making assumptions on current gear level, where it may have come from, and set a few expectations on where they might be in terms of DPS and survivability.

It’s handy, as I said, specifically for situation like this. Because the tank actually says, while on the first boss, “C’mon DPS, wake up, you suck.”

Well, no, actually, considering the comparative levels of their gear, they’re doing pretty damn good. I’m very impressed with what the Shadow Priest is squeezing out of her gear, that’s a player spot on.

But okay, whatever, we’re moving too fast for me to type.

Boom, we get down to the next boss area, we’re flying along, killing, clearing, boss goes down, moving on.

We get to the two large mobs just before the last boss, and one of the players, the Shadow Priest I think, is back a ways. They haven’t caught up to us, and wonder of wonders, the tank didn’t just run ahead and pull without them.

But he DOES take the time to get bitchy in chat.

“Are you coming or what? We don’t have all day, get over here.”

I take the time to reply, “Since we’re sitting here waiting and you’re bored, how about buffing me with Kings, since you never gave anyone Paladin buffs yet?”

Yes, that’s right. A tank too lazy, too rushed or too ‘leet’ to bother buffing the group, not even doing the new standard “I’m too good to give you the buff you want, I’m giving everyone Kings” like you see most of the time these days. 

I get my Kings, and he shuts up.

For now. Oh yes, for now. But there is still one more boss, and this pull will tell me something.

Gear or skill? Care or indifference? Phoning it in or in it to win it?

One pull. We’ll see.

We clear the two mobs, we all line up on the King, and the Paladin runs in to pull.

Here’s the test. How did he pull?

He ran straight forward to the boss and stopped dead right there, boss facing the entrance ramp, and stayed there.

This is the loser way to tank the final boss in Azjol-Nerub.

Whether you want to call it laziness, ignorance, or just-didn’t-give-a-shit, bad tanks run forward on the last boss and stop.



The last boss casts Pound. It has a long cast time, and when it goes off, he casts it in the direction he had originally been facing when he started casting. Well, most of the time. Sometimes he bugs and does whirl around if his main threat target is behind him, as the tank is supposed to be.

Oh, and Pound’s key characteristic is it does a shitload of damage to anyone standing within an area the shape of a cone in front of him. It’s a cone-shaped AoE.

It’s almost enough, sometimes it IS enough, to kill cloth or leather wearing players.

By running forward and stopping right there, the tank is leaving it to everyone else in the party to be aware of the mechanic, and run all the way the long way around the boss to get behind him, and during that time, of course, only instant cast spells and attacks are going off.

And if the other players aren’t aware of the mechanic, then when Pound goes off, guess what? Everyone standing somewhere in front of the damn bug king gets a big facefull of WHAM!

So, the tank ran in. Stood there. Kept the boss facing the ramp.

Not everyone ran around to the sides and back like I did. The Death Knight and Shadow Priest did, the Warlock didn’t.

The Warlock’s health plummeted to about 500, and my existing HoTs quickly pulled him back up.

The Paladin, who had run through the boss to get behind him when Pound started casting, lols in Party chat.

He did it on purpose, the worthless little prick, hoping to kill someone else.

Why? Why would someone do something like that?

The run had been smooth. The enemies all died. Nobody ran crazy. Everyone stayed on target. There was no chaos. My heals prevented sillyness and unnecessary deaths.

So why?

I tell the tank in party chat, “How about pulling the boss to face away from the party.”

He announces that you can’t move the boss after he casts Pound.

Well, he has managed to be technically accurate, while at the same time avoiding the fact I didn’t say shit about moving the boss DURING the Pound, I said move the boss to “face away from the party”.

On the second phase, sure as hell, he does it again, and the Warlock eats it again, and doesn’t die. Again, the “lol noob” rolls off the tanks’ lips.

I’m making sure that if nobody actually gets one shot, nobody dies.

Yes, not even the tank.

Phase three comes around, I’ve whispered the Warlock, and the only person that eats Pound is… the Tank. Who immediately throws a Party chat hissyfit.

Guess what?

He moved through the boss during the Pound cast, and the boss did his sometimes-seen bug and whirled around before it went off, nailing the tank.

Amusingly enough, the Shadow Priest, Warlock and Death Knight had all moved to the side during the cast, and didn’t eat it.

Oh, yeah, I was at the side too. Of course.

What? Hey, of course *I* know about the bug, I blogged about it a year ago. Or something like that. Back when it really hurt to get hit by Pound. Like, in Neolithic times, with the dinosaurs and shit.

The tank is hot. He ran through and got hit by Pound anyway, and that’s not fair.

Now, here is the question I have up to this point.

I’m the only one who has said a word, besides the tank, on the entire run. Not a peep out of anyone else while the tank has acted like an immature child.

Do you think the silence was due to not caring what an idiot thinks, or because they were afraid that if they said anything to show they didn’t appreciate the attitude, the tank would leave and the DPS would have a collapsed run on their hands?

Do YOU adjust your behavior, do you hold your tongue when insulted or ridiculed, so you don’t piss off your tank and maybe have him leave you in a fit of childish rage?

While you think of that, I’ll wrap the run up with a fun moment.

When the boss falls, the tank first rolls the Recount log of Damage done through Party chat, and then says, “God you all suck, I’ve got top DPS and I’m the tank.”

I immediately reply, having been primed for this bit of asshattery since the first boss, “You are a Paladin tank with a 5600 GS. The rest of the DPS has nowhere even close to your gear level, so what is your point?”

At the same time, the Death Knight says, “Well, if I was on my other character my DPS would be a little different, lol.”

The tank replies, “Well, the Warlock has 4K.”

To which I reply, “You are a complete moron. A MORON. Goodbye!”

/leave group.

The Warlock has 4K? This is your answer for being a dick about being a tank with the highest DPS? And a Paladin tank as well?

“Oooh, I only outgear you by 1600 gear score, how come I’m top DPS, you must all suck.”

Damnit, there are days, as I said in guild chat, where I just want to bitchslap the world.

Or, in this case, I’d like every tank with this kind of attitude to line up single file, perform a left face, and I’ll freaking ride down the line on a Harley doing 70 with my hand outstretched, to SLAP THEM ALL!!!

Do you do it? Do you eat your feelings and allow yourself to suffer indignities in silence just for the sake of not bruising a sensitive tanks’ ego, challenging his asshattedness, so that you get your run finished?

I now return you to your informative MMO Champion/Blues Tracker game announcements, still in progress.

74 thoughts on “Tales from the PUG: The Return

  1. I know I’m late to the party, but I just want to say this:

    I think it was actually you, BBB, who once said “You don’t have to be anyone’s bitch”.

    This is a lesson I’ve carried with me through PuGs, and it’s true. No one, ever, should tolerate that kind of behaviour. The rewards of the dungeon are not more valuable than getting treated with the basic respect and civility all human beings deserve.

    I don’t hesitate one second to leave a group mid-instance when there’s awful behaviour like that, and NO ONE should tolerate it. Because, get this, if no one tolerated it then IT WOULD STOP HAPPENING. If everyone started kicking assholes instead of putting up with them, they’d either have to stop playing or change their behaviour. We have the power over asshats, not the other way around. We just need to recognize it, and use it.


  2. Most pugs I get fall into the extremes. Either the most pleasant and fun group (/cry at cross realm friends) or total ass-hattery. I usually either tank or heal on my druid and can better influence the group if needed. I’ve always felt that it’s the total dps that matters not any individual output. I always defend the new 80’s as I’ve been there. As a tank, my gear makes it easy for healers and I can usually let the asshats die (oh – did that growl miss?) As a tree, heals can mysteriously get mis-applied to the really nice players instead of the asshat.

    One of the best pug runs started out bad with a rockstar tank that was constantly berating the dps. I whispered that they should let him pull and die all by himself as he kept saying that he was carrying everyone else. There were a few trepidations by the dps about the tank leaving and waiting for a new tank but I told them not to worry. He’d either straighten up or we’d be better off when he left. After he died, bitched about how we abandoned him (I thought he was capable of doing everything himself – he kept telling us that), and dropped group, I switched specs, queued in heals and had the most fun run. We kept chatting for 30 minutes after the run was over.

    As I learned here – “I can’t fix stupid, so I won’t heal it either.”


  3. Honestly I tend to keep quiet. But that’s mainly because I’m too busy healing to have time to type (I’m a slow typer). It’s also because I often don’t know how to respond. I might have spoken up sometime but since I’m just back from a 10 month break I don’t remember everything too well.


  4. I’m glad I’m not the only one that writes 1/2 in fear of Kes’ grammar hammar (see what I did there?).

    Of-course-the-other-half of me just wants to …. Taunt…. Know what I mean?

    Sorry Kes!

    I know I am a bad writer… Hopefully I still write good things if in a bad way.
    .-= Gnomeaggedon´s last blog ..When will I learn… =-.


  5. Sorry BBB – its not often I recognize a guildy on a public forum.

    Back on topic – the reality is that right now tanks are seen as the rockstars of the LFD. I remember (waaaaaaay back) when healers were the same – and as a result I ran more than a few pugs with prima donna healers that behaved as asshats because people were terrified that they would leave the group in the lurch. Back then, gear was harder to come by (I’m talking vanilla days – I didn’t play enough in BC to notice it as much) and unless you were with a really fantastic group you couldn’t just roll through the dungeons like you can now-a-days.

    Unfortunately, as long as a particular role is in demand, I suspect that PUGs will always be saddled with asshats who think that they are too hot to handle, and will behave as such. Attention-mongers (trying to keep this reasonably pg) will always tend to gravitate towards those roles if they are able to be successful at them… and as long as it is a royal pain to replace them they will continue to behave badly.


  6. @Magdellan
    I recently switched to running heroics in bear spec/dps gear for the sole reason that I never lose aggro on anything, even with icc 25 geared raiders. My dps gear is also icc 25 man and aside from the gems/enchants is pretty much the same as tank gear.
    I normally run with fellow raiders and made the change based on how often I’d lose a mob to them if they went aoe crazy. My healer said I wasn’t bad to heal at all and my dps were gratefull for the chance to cut lose.
    Now when I tank randoms on my own, I rarely worry about people complaining about aggro or going to slow or whatever.
    The perks of being feral 🙂


  7. @Phae – As Midg is now erm, imbalanced, no. Lane, no. Belle, no.

    I’ll give you a big hint though – I’m one half of one of the other guild duos 🙂


  8. @Jeremiah – not every PuG is a bad PuG. The bulk of my PuGs have been mostly silent affairs: I to my macro about tanking at the beginning, everyone buffs up, I check to make sure we’re ready, and away we go. The only talking is generally when I pause and ask if people are ready for a boss.

    I’ve had more good PuGs than bad ones. I had one PuG group that was so awesome, we continued to run instances together for another TWO HOURS. None of really needed the badges – we were just working well as a team. I’ve had many people I wished I could friendlist – they knew their stuff, they were polite, they listened, they asked questions, they were patient, they were funny, etc.

    For the most part though, reading stories of “we entered the dungeon, buffed, stuff died, and we all said goodbye” isn’t as fun as the stories of THE BAD PuG.


  9. These entries actually make me not want to LFG anymore. I have my own horrible moments, but reliving them in your entries depresses me. I was on my 3800 GS neglected priest going to heal H UK. Got matched with an a-hole DK tank with 23k health and not def capped (armoried later). He pulls everything in the first set, can’t keep aggro, and everyone goes down. He says, “why are you so slow on heals? do you even know what haste is?” No response from me. “healer i’m talking to you. do you even know what haste is?” I said, “with my gear, haste is a luxury. you should only be concerned with better pulls and keeping aggro.” He says, “stop failing.” “Find a healer willing to tolerate you,” as my guildie and I left.


  10. I ran into pally tank 2 nights ago in hFoS that was even worse. He would pull a group tank it for three seconds and then just stop doing anything. Fortunately everyone was well geared or we’d have wiped. I was thinking he had connection problems until He starts to pull multiple packs of trash and then stands still while types LOL while we are dealing with his mess. He then proceed to charge the first boss right as we arrive at the doorway and then “DCs”. Luckily he didn’t actually get in quite far enough to aggro the boss.


  11. For players such as those, I would just tolerate. Their lol-ing and trash talking ain’t going to squeeze out anymore DPS. Good thing you’ll never see them again.

    Actually, in vein of the current discussion, I was healing a PUG on my paladin this morning. Entered PoS, and the druid tank pulled before I even got the buffs up. His health drops rapidly, but good thing I’m decently geared, and some quick successive FoLs tops him off nicely and some more. A mouse-over his toon shows me he has 6.1k GS, and frowning, I turn to the DPS chart, where a solid orange bar sits at the top, with 6.5k DPS, and I’m like Whaaaa-? And that’s when I turn to look at his health, and see 38k, and I’m like, well that’s just BS. Most druid tanks have 45k+; my GM can hit nearly 70k when fully buffed when we run ICC. So I do the classic gear check, right click character panel > inspect. And sure enough, he’s wearing all his DPS gear. Guess he’s in a hurry. Well I don’t object, ‘cause I want a quickie as well. We get past the first two bosses with little issue, with no one dying even though the tank had his full DPS set on, and no one has spoken up about any problems. In hindsight, it’s a wonder how well aggro was managed. Maybe the DPS knew what to do. Anyways. Oh, and he pulled both groups of the flamecasters or whatever they’re called. Pain in the ass to heal through, but we did it – I mean, I did it. I was just happy thinking we were going to finish PoS in record time. So last boss, and I’m praying it doesn’t get bugged like it had one time. And just our luck it does! And so we have to wipe it and reset. I DI the tank, and the rest of the group commences to die unnecessary deaths. And then we wipe it a second time cause someone was stupid enough to run close enough to the boss to start the fight (okay that was me >< But that was because I was trying to rez someone). Third time’s a charm right? And so it does prove so. OH I should mention that he tanked the boss in cat form. Yes, that’s right, cat form. With barely 30k health. Well he lives through it, thanks to my awesome heals (no, really). And wheeee! My healing trinket drops, I roll need and lose it to the mage for the second time. I get pissed and roll need on a DPS ring for my tri-spec and win. And feel bad. But whatever right. It’s just a PUG.


  12. I don’t mind tanking LFD so much, as I get to be the one in control, setting the pace and where mobs go. For the most part, I could care less what people’s gear is (as long as they are intelligent – I am still recovering from a Balance druid not in moonkin form wearing the purple frost resist leather gear). I do call out two types of people: lazy people and asshats.

    I run GS and I use it like you do, BBB: as a indicator of what I can expect from this group. If I see some with a 5Ksomething GS who’s barely cranking out 1.5k DPS, I call them out. I still have to work hard as a tank – I am NOT dragging some auto-attacking auto-following dude around.

    I’ve been pretty lucky and only had very few asshats. One time in Oc, we had 2 people who had never completed the instance. Our top DPS didn’t want to explain the fight and after wiping twice on the last boss pretty spectaculary to his impatiance, we kicked him. And proceeded to take the time to explain the fight, make sure the new people knew it, and downed him.

    The only other asshat I can recall was a jerk DK in hVH. He had the highest gear score (much like your pally tank) and kept spamming the recount meter. Unfortunately, we could not kick him due to the timer. With hVH being as it is, I never got the chance to boot his elitist ass.


  13. @Nimizar,

    Yeah, I can understand that, I guess I’m just more… liberterian about it. If I’m main tanking and an offtank steals an add and can handle it, more power to ’em. I might even thank him. If a Rogue steals an add and gets flattened while I’m busy keeping critters off the healer, it’s his own blasted fault. I’ve not been a healer of any significance, though, so I can see where splitting attention might be a frustrating thing… but then, aren’t people always whining about the game being too simple? If all they have to do is keep the tank alive, it sounds kind of… boring to me.
    .-= Tesh´s last blog ..Wading Into Live =-.


  14. Usually . . . usually . . . I throw it in the tanks face and try to vote kick him from the group.

    The other day I was with a tank so viciously rude, whose comments were supported by the healer that there was simply nothing to say. His most telling comment was when the healer asked him if he was just being an asshole until the DK (me) left so he didn’t have any competition on the plate gear and he responded, “No. I’m just going to be an asshole.” His whole objective was to get a rise. So I just shut up and ignored chat the rest of the run.

    “I love tanking with friends, but strangers? Yeah, not so much.”

    Yup, yup. I tried tanking with this new DK just for the LFD love. Previosly, I have tanked on a DK through level 80, with my brother healing and a nice group of guildies in 2 or 3 dps slots most of the time. I have tanked on a prot warrior into Outland with a couple of IRL buddies from work. I had great experiences with both toons. But there is just more stupid than I can deal with in LFD now. DPS that can’t follow a marked kill order or think all tanks, even in level appropriate runs, should go-go-go like the overgeared ICC raiders running heroics for their 2 daily frosts. I don’t want to put up with it.


  15. I also have stopped tanking in favor of healing, though to be sure, tanking is less stressful than healing can be if you have one of those groups. Healers, however, seem to find PuG raid spots more easily than tanks, and that’s the content I like to see.

    I think everyone should give healing heroics (using a good raidframes addon) a shot if they can put together the gear for it. The Addon Tells All – how well the tank holds aggro and whether he bothers to do anything about it as well as who’s standing in the fire.

    Also, isn’t Pound avoidable by jumping at the right moment?


  16. I defend people from “asshats” when I see it. Just this weekend a warrior decided to ignore the Soul Fragments in Forge of Souls. He healed the boss three times. I called him on it, and he finally started kiting the things away from the boss. Of course, by then it was too late.

    And what did Mr Badass Warrior do? Harrass the healer – who had never been in FoS and wasn’t prepared for the AOE. That didn’t sit well with me so I congratulated the Warrior for healing the boss for more than the Paladin healed the rest of the group. Sadly, my attempt to vote kick him failed as he was in queue with two of his buddies. Amazingly enough, though, they didn’t counter-kick me.

    I have 3 tanks at 80 (and switching my Resto Druid to Bear for a 4th), so I’m tanking more than anything else. I generally start my group with some random inane comments. Movie quotes are a great ice breaker. And once the ice is broken it becomes much harder for people to be abrassive to each other.


  17. The jerk factor (tanks like you describe, or gogogogo dps who show no consideration for a tank they vastly outgear) are killing LFD for me. Whatever role I’m on I sometimes call the jerk on their behaviour, but don’t do it nearly as much as I should. Ignore lists are part of the solution, but it’s important to speak up rather than just not have to group with them again.

    I’m tempted to stop tanking for this reason, but on the other hand I’d rather be the tank than have to put up with tanks like this paladin. Alternatively I’m seriously considering only using LFD to fill a guild group, or not at all, and find other ways of enjoying the game.
    .-= orc shaman´s last blog ..Heroics no longer fun =-.


  18. “I love tanking with friends, but strangers? Yeah, not so much.”

    I do the opposite, BBB. I tank for pugs because I feel I can control asshattery more actively than a healer or DPS. Being a tank with a 5600GS, no one’s going to argue with me about it either. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I find it rare when the DPS decide to pull for me, and it’s hard for people to pull aggro off of me. If they do, then they’re doing massive dps and the mob is going to die before they do if the healer tosses just one heal on them.

    Frankly, *I* want a good clean run because I don’t want my own time or energy wasted, so I will do everything in my power to make sure that happens. And thus, I tank.

    And 9 times out of 10, I get rewarded with a smooth run plus “thanks for the run” or “nice tanking” tells. Maybe I’m in a battlegroup with less asshats than others, but I think there is something to be said for that.


  19. I will generally pipe up against the muppets regardless of what role either I or they are in. It amazes me I’ve not been vote kicked but I guess that must mean at least a couple of others in the group agree with my point of view.

    I was in sunken temple the other day and the tank went down during a trash pull, the ret pally and the healer carried on to one of the mini bosses, I and the other dps stayed with the tanks corpse even when told we were being selfish for not helping them.

    Pally and Druid dropped group after that saying we were the most selfish group they had ever been in 😛

    Still don’t think i was in the wrong, really is it selfish to expect everyone to be ressed before moving on??


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